Michael Is Part Of The Trinity

[MormonMason]

Before I sit down I want to say a word to the Elders of Israel on another subject. I am called an old man; I guess I am. I was thinking just now, in speaking of the Apostles and Prophets that were with Joseph Smith when he made his last speech, I am the only man living that was with him at that time. The rest are to-day in the spirit world. How much longer I shall talk to this people I do not know; but I want to say this to all Israel: Cease troubling yourselves about who God is; who Adam is, who Christ is, who Jehovah is. For heaven's sake, let these things alone. Why trouble yourselves about these things? God has revealed Himself, and when the 121st section of the Doctrine and Covenants is fulfilled, whether there be one God or many gods they will be revealed to the children of men, as well as all thrones and dominions, principalities, and powers. Then why trouble yourselves about these things? God is God. Christ is Christ. The Holy Ghost is the Holy Ghost. That should be enough for you and me to know. If we want to know any more, wait till we get where God is in person. I say this because we are troubled every little while with inquiries from Elders anxious to know who God is, who Christ is, and who Adam is. I say to the Elders of Israel, stop this. Humble yourselves before the Lord; seek for light, for truth, and for a knowledge of the common things of the kingdom of God. The Lord is the same yesterday, to-day, and forever. He changes not. The Son of God is the same. He is the Savior of the world. He is our advocate with the Father. We have had letter after letter from Elders abroad wanting to know concerning these things. Adam is the first man. He was placed in the Garden of Eden, and is our great progenitor. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost, are the same yesterday, to-day and forever. That should be sufficient for us to know.

(Wilford Woodruff in Brian H. Stuy, ed., Collected Discourses, 5 vols., 4:292, bold emphasis mine)

[alter idem]

In another thread Mike asserted:

"Yes, it is. That's because it refers to the three persons of the Trinity, not the Trinity plus Michael the Archangel."

I dont believe Michael is part of the Trinity. Further more I have never heard of this concept. I think this is just another false statment to try stir people up.

As far as official LDS doctrine, you are correct to say you don't believe Michael is part of the Trinity--I'd say the same thing, if asked by a non-member. Official LDS doctrine teaches that the Godhead is made up of Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost--and this is what you will hear taught in Church meetings.

Official LDS doctrine does not identify who the Holy Ghost is or tell us much about it-mostly we know about it's purpose and that it doesn't have a body. As you can see from the responses, there are theories that suggest Michael is the Holy Ghost-or ideas similar to that. But this is not official LDS doctrine and should not be promoted as anything more than a theory.

Personally, I don't find it that hard to wrap my mind around the HolyGhost/Michael theory--I like the "divine investiture" idea--but I would never bring it up in a Sunday School class.

[Lightbearer]

QUOTE(Sargon @ Oct 8 2007, 05:06 PM)

A good question might be why the Holy Ghost is falling upon Adam and bearing record that the Holy Ghost is "the Only Begotten of the Father from the beginning."

Without resort to extrascriptural theories such as "divine investitute of authority," the textual evidence indicates that it was an unembodied Jesus who descended upon Adam as the Holy Ghost.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

One other interesting tid-bit to throw into the mix is that scripture seems clear that the Holy Ghost is the Revelator, and the one through whom all revelation comes to mankind.

Strangely, Joseph Smith said that it was through Michael that all revelation comes.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Sorry Consiglieri I must dispute your interpretation of that scripture and say that the Holy Ghost always speaks by "divine investiture of authority" I turn your attention to this verse:

(John 16:13) "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come."

So I think that when the spirit spoke he thus spoke as a member of the Godhead, just as Christ often spoke as if He were the Father in other scriptures. On the subject of Adam I found the following in "Gospel Doctrine" by Joseph Fielding Smith:

(Joseph Fielding Smith, Gospel Doctrine, Pg.12)

PRE-EXISTING STATES.

Mrs. Martha H. Tingey, President, Y. L. M. I. A.

DEAR SISTER: The First Presidency have nothing to advance concerning pre-existing states but that which is contained in the revelations to the Church. The written standards of scripture show that all people who come to this earth and are born in mortality had a pre-existent, spiritual personality as the sons or daughters of the Eternal Father. (See Pearl of Great Price, Chap. 3, verses 5-7.) Jesus Christ was the Firstborn. A spirit born of God is an immortal being. When the body dies the spirit does not die. In the resurrected state the body will be immortal as well as the spirit. Speculations as to the career of Adam before he came to the earth are of no real value. We learn by revelation that he was Michael, the Archangel, and that he stands at the head of his posterity on earth (Doctrine and Covenants, Sec. 107:53-56.) Dogmatic assertions do not take the place of revelation, and we should be satisfied with that which is accepted as doctrine, and not discuss matters that, after all disputes, are merely matters of theory.

Your brethren,

JOSEPH F. Smith,

ANTHON H. LUND,

CHARLES W. PENROSE,

First Presidency.

-- Young Woman's Journal, Vol. 23, pp. 162, 163, 1912.

That letter from the First Presidency sort of says it all about the subject of this thread.

[MormonMason]

...But this is not official LDS doctrine and should not be promoted as anything more than a theory.

Personally, I don't find it that hard to wrap my mind around the HolyGhost/Michael theory--I like the "divine investiture" idea--but I would never bring it up in a Sunday School class.

I agree. I personally do not believe the view (particularly due to what I posted from Wilford Woodruff) but I can see why some might. I personally knew two people who got into trouble teaching this view in Sunday School. Needless to say, one of them wised up and retained his membership--at least the last time I talked with him, which was some years ago. The other taught his way right out of the Church. He was disfellowshipped and appealed the decision beyond the Stake President. He was told directly by General Authorities that what he was teaching was false doctrine and that if he continued to teach it as doctrine he would lose his membership in the Church. Needless to say, he lost his membership in the Church through his persistence. I moved away shortly after that and do not know what happened to the guy after that.

[consiglieri]

Do you have a reference for that?

Happy to oblige. Perhaps we could discuss how this statement from Joseph Smith squares with the common (and scriptural) understanding that revelation comes through the Holy Ghost.

Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Section Four 1839â??42, p.167

Commencing with Adam, who was the first man, who is spoken of in Daniel as being the "Ancient of Days," or in other words, the first and oldest of all, the great, grand progenitor of whom it is said in another place he is Michael, because he was the first and father of all, not only by progeny, but the first to hold the spiritual blessings, to whom was made known the plan of ordinances for the salvation of his posterity unto the end, and to whom Christ was first revealed, and through whom Christ has been revealed from henceforth. Adam holds the keys of the dispensation of the fullness of times; i.e., the dispensation of all the times have been and will be revealed through him from the beginning to Christ, and from Christ to the end of the dispensations that are to be revealed. "Having made known unto us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He that purposed in Himself; that in the dispensation of the fullness of times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in Him." (Ephesians 1:9-10.)

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[consiglieri]

As far as official LDS doctrine, you are correct to say you don't believe Michael is part of the Trinity--I'd say the same thing, if asked by a non-member. Official LDS doctrine teaches that the Godhead is made up of Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost--and this is what you will hear taught in Church meetings.

I think it depends on where you are when the LDS Godhead ("Trinity") is discussed.

In Sunday school, one Trinity is discussed.

In the temple, a different Trinity is set forth.

Just an observation.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[consiglieri]

I suppose if you want to ignore the Standard Works and the teachings of the living Prophet then I guess you could justify believing any doctrine you want. If Adam was temporarily the Holy Ghost, then is he still the Holy Ghost or was he resurrected at the coming of Christ? If he was resurrected then how is it the D&C states that the Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit? I see no justification from the Temple for such a doctrine. We were all in that Grand Council along with Adam and participated in the creation, so the fact that Adam was a participant in the creation does not justify saying he is the Holy Ghost. Why call him Michael, the Archangel if he was indeed a member of the Godhead? Why not manifest this teaching plainly in the scriptures? Speculation is all there is to support such a doctrine.

The answer to the bolded question above may lie in Jesus' apparent statement to the apostles in John's gospel that the Comforter could not be present with them while Jesus was among them, but that Jesus had to depart in order to "send" the Comforter.

Just a thought.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

The only thing I want to say about this whole thread is, I find it interesting that MikeMcK originaly claimed that Mormons are affraid to discuss things. I see this thread close to 4 pages. Mike it looks like you are wrong about Mormons being afraid. Please let this thread stand as a testimony against your words. Also I havent seen Him or really any one else wanting to bash the church in here. (not that I want that). But who is afraid of who.

These are some great thoughts brought up here. It makes me think. I can see both sides here. It would be impossible for me to answer with certanty witch is right. Speculation is an interesting thing.

[Enoch]

"A good question might be why the Holy Ghost is falling upon Adam and bearing record that the Holy Ghost is "the Only Begotten of the Father from the beginning.""

An easy question to answer...the Book Of Mormon is modalistic...it regularly presents all three members of the godhead as different "modes" or manifestations of one PERSONALITY which is ONE BEING. This was a common way that many people processed the godhead in the 1820s...many would argue that it is a misunderstanding of the idea that God is THREE in PERSONALITY but ONE in SUBSTANCE.

Incidenatally, in the Lectures On Faith, things change a bit...from part fifth;

2 There are two personages who constitute the great, matchless, governing, and supreme power over all things - by whom all things were created and made that are created and made, whether visible or invisible; whether in heaven, on earth, or in the earth, under the earth, or throughout the immensity of space. They are the Father and the Son: The Father being a personage of spirit, glory, and power, possessing all perfection and fullness. The Son, who was in the bosom of the Father, a personage of tabernacle, made or fashioned like unto man, or being in the form and likeness of man - or rather, man was formed after his likeness and in his image. He is also the express image and likeness of the personage of the Father, possessing all the fullness of the Father, or the same fullness with the Father, being begotten of him; and was ordained from before the foundation of the world to be a propitiation for the sins of all those who should believe on his name; and is called the Son because of the flesh - and descended in suffering below that which man can suffer, or in other words, suffered greater sufferings, and was exposed to more powerful contradictions than any man can be.

Q. Do the Father and the Son possess the same mind?

A. a. They do. John 5:30, "I [Christ] can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me."

b. John 6:38, "For I [Christ] came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me."

c. John 10:30, "I [Christ] and my Father are one."

Q. What is this mind?

A. a. The Holy Spirit. John 15:26, "But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me [Christ]."

b. Gal. 4:6, "And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts."

And of course, ideas about the godhead in the LDS church change quite a bit after that.

Question...is contradictory revelation really progressive?

Enoch

[emeliza]

Wow, I think I just saw my brains splatter all over my computer from this one. I can understand the different theories on here, but can't agree with them all. But again I haven't been to the Temple yet either. I am in a bit of shock right now.

I am with John W and GG and Mola on this.....right now.

[Lightbearer]

Wow, I think I just saw my brains splatter all over my computer from this one. I can understand the different theories on here, but can't agree with them all. But again I haven't been to the Temple yet either. I am in a bit of shock right now.

I am with John W and GG and Mola on this.....right now.

Don't let it bother you, that is why we are counciled not to speculate on matters that have not been revealed.

[Drewm777]

Don't let it bother you, that is why we are counciled not to speculate on matters that have not been revealed.

I agree, except I think there are clear revelations that do conflict with many of the theories above. I've never read anything in scripture that would support the idea that Michael is a member of the Godhead, whether Father, Jesus, or Holy Ghost.

[Obiwan]

1. Man.... Guy's.... stop believing this nonsense. All we need is the anti's to claim another thing "they've heard" mormons actually believe, as if it's common.

2. Michael/Adam is not the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit period.

Michael played a role in the creation because he's the full mortal link to matter after the Son & Father, and the first man, he's the "only father we have to do".

[Helorum]

CHARITY said:

The Godhead is Heavenly Father, Jesus, and Michael/Adam. . . .

It just think that is the way it is [because of the temple]. And I expressed my opinion here. I would certainly not continue to hold the opinion if an authority said it wasn't so.

Then you should dump this "opinion" IMMEDIATELY.

Joseph Smith (who certainly qualifies as an "authority") taught on 16 June 1844, in a public discourse, that:

"The Holy Ghost is yet a spiritual body and waiting to take to himself a body as the Savior did" (The Words of Joseph Smith, 382).

Adam obtained a physical body, died, and was resurrected shortly after Jesus Christ (see Matt. 27:52-53; D&C 138:38-39, 50; Encyclopedia of Mormonism, 725; Mormon Doctrine, 273, 404, 493, 639, Journal of Discourses, 21:291-92; Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 2:39) -- and thus has had a physical body again for quite some time. Yet, on 2 April 1843 Joseph Smith (an ackowledged "authority") said: "the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit" (D&C 130:22).

[Drewm777]

In D&C 130 we're also told that the Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit!

[Lightbearer]

I agree, except I think there are clear revelations that do conflict with many of the theories above. I've never read anything in scripture that would support the idea that Michael is a member of the Godhead, whether Father, Jesus, or Holy Ghost.

Agreed! There is absolutely no scriptural foundation for such a belief. The Temple does not teach any such doctrine either! It is not a doctrine of the Church and should not be supported by those who are professing to be teaching LDS doctrine. It seems like a variant of the "Adam God Theory" which is also a false doctrine.

[consiglieri]

So that nobody goes calling my bishop, let me state that I do not teach that what I believe in this regard is doctrine.

I do from time to time mention, however, that it is consistent with scripture and declarations of Joseph Smith; and that, in fact, it ends up answering more questions than it raises, which, for me, is a hallmark indicator of something that may be correct.

Any takers on how Joseph Smith said all revelation comes through Adam?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[consiglieri]

In D&C 130 we're also told that the Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit!

Indeed he is. In fact, he must be a personage of spirit in order to function in the office of Holy Ghost.

And I am not even going to go into discussing why, of all the names Adam could have chosen for his wife, he decided to pick "Eve" because "she is the mother of all living."

A somewhat peculiar statement considering they were still in the garden and had no children yet!

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[consiglieri]

Then you should dump this "opinion" IMMEDIATELY.

Joseph Smith (who certainly qualifies as an "authority") taught on 16 June 1844, in a public discourse, that:

"The Holy Ghost is yet a spiritual body and waiting to take to himself a body as the Savior did" (The Words of Joseph Smith, 382).

Adam obtained a physical body, died, and was resurrected shortly after Jesus Christ -- and thus has had a physical body again for quite some time. Yet, on 2 April 1843 Joseph Smith (an ackowledged "authority") said: "the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit" (D&C 130:22).

Yes, please dump this opinion immediately. You must not even allow yourself to entertain the possibility.

For me, on the other hand, "I never seen, heard or smelled an idea that was so dangerous it couldn't be talked about."

And while you are busy dumping this opinion based upon the quote from "The Words of Joseph Smith," you might ask yourself exactly how it was that the Savior took to himself a body. This is the kind of quote that tends to raise more questions than it presumably answers.

I'm sorry. I am interrupting. Dump away!

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Dagnabbit!! This thread has been rolling around in my mind since yesterday... I still hold with my view that Adam/Michael is not the Holy Ghost... but, it is interesting to reflect on some comments about the position of Holy Ghost being a "calling," perhaps to be filled by different spirits in the various dispensations... I will continue my view that there is and has been one Holy Ghost of the Godhead, but not shut the door on the other theoretical possibility...

The Garden Girl

God bless those with open minds!

[consiglieri]

The only thing I want to say about this whole thread is, I find it interesting that MikeMcK originaly claimed that Mormons are affraid to discuss things. I see this thread close to 4 pages. Mike it looks like you are wrong about Mormons being afraid. Please let this thread stand as a testimony against your words. Also I havent seen Him or really any one else wanting to bash the church in here. (not that I want that). But who is afraid of who.

These are some great thoughts brought up here. It makes me think. I can see both sides here. It would be impossible for me to answer with certanty witch is right. Speculation is an interesting thing.

I agree with you 100%.

The gospel was restored so as to ensure freedom of belief.

Joseph Smith once said he never read of a man being damned for believing too much; only they are damned for unbelief.

Joseph Smith also once rejoiced in the liberty of believing as he chose: "It feels so good not to be trammeled!"

It would be a shame for Joseph's spiritual descendants to start getting trammeled at this late date.

All the Best!

[consiglieri]

Sorry Consiglieri I must dispute your interpretation of that scripture and say that the Holy Ghost always speaks by "divine investiture of authority" I turn your attention to this verse:So I think that when the spirit spoke he thus spoke as a member of the Godhead, just as Christ often spoke as if He were the Father in other scriptures. On the subject of Adam I found the following in "Gospel Doctrine" by Joseph Fielding Smith:That letter from the First Presidency sort of says it all about the subject of this thread.

I have no problem, Lightbearer, with your disputing my interpretation of this scripture, or anything else for that matter. I recognize that I am not in the majority opinion here.

I will observe, however, that it seems your interpretation of the passage in question involves the invocation of a tertiary doctrine of "divine investiture of authority," while my interpretation simply reads the passage as it stands.

It is my belief that many truths can be arrived at simply by reading what the scriptures say, rather than trying to force the scriptures to say what we already believe. (Not a personal slam, by any means. It is a ubiquitous malady.)

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[erichard]

In D&C 130 we're also told that the Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit!

We know that Adam has a Spirit body. We know that he died, and his body separated from his spirit.

Viola-- Adam is a personage of Spirit.

(Until he takes up his body again at Adam-Ondi-Ahman.)

I agree that we should avoid all contentious speculation, especially with non believers. Yet we have a right and responsibility to seek for further light and knowledge directly from God. And God does sometimes reveal mysteries to those that seek diligently. I honestly did have a spiritual experience understanding that Adam became the Holy Ghost when he died. Part of this understanding is that this has been a mystery up to this time. The church has never taught exactly who the Holy Ghost is. That is because it had not been revealed. But D&C 121 does say all things will be revealed in our day. I remain convinced this truth has now been revealed.

Richard

[Helorum]

Joseph Smith once said he never read of a man being damned for believing too much; only they are damned for unbelief.

Joseph Smith also once rejoiced in the liberty of believing as he chose: "It feels so good not to be trammeled!"

He also told members of the Church not to teach speculative doctrinal ideas:

(History of the Church, 1:366).

[Drewm777]

Original Manuscript, in the hand of Robert B. Thompson: In order to investigate the subject of the Priesthood so important to this as well as every succeeding generation, I shall proceed to trace the subject as far as I possibly can from the Old and new Testament.There are two Priesthoods spoken of in the Scriptures, viz the Melchisadeck and the Aaronic or Levitical Altho there are two Priesthoods, yet the Melchisadeck Priesthood comprehends the Aaronic or Levitical Priesthood and is the Grand head, and holds the highest Authority which pertains to the Priesthood the keys of the Kingdom of God in all ages of the world to the latest posterity on the earth and is the channel through which all knowledge, doctrine, the plan of salvation and every important matter is revealed from heaven. Its institution was prior to "the foundation of this earth or the morning stars sang together or the Sons of God shouted for joy," and is the highest and holiest Priesthood and is after the order of the Son [of] God, and all other Priesthoods are only parts, ramifications, powers and blessings belonging to the same and are held controlled and directed by it. It [that is, the Melchizedek Priesthood!] is the channel through which the Almighty commenced revealing his glory at the beginning of the creation of this earth and through which he has continued to reveal himself to the children of men to the present time and through which he will make known his purposes to the end of time—Commencing with Adam who was the first man who is spoken of in Daniel as being the "Ancient of days" or in other words the first and oldest of all, the great grand progenitor of whom it is said in another place he is Michael because he was the first and father of all, not only by progeny, but he was the first to hold the spiritual blessings, to whom was made known the plan of ordinances for the Salvation of his posterity unto the end, and to whom Christ was first revealed, and through whom Christ has been revealed from heaven and will continue to be revealed from henceforth. Adam holds the Keys of the dispensation of the fulness of times, i.e. the dispensation of all the times have been and will be revealed through him from the beginning to Christ and from Christ to the end of all the dispensations that have [been and] are to be revealed...

(Joseph Smith)

I add here the context of the quote so you can see that what is being revealed is the priesthood. Adam stands at the head as the great Patriarch. Priesthood authority, then, is revealed through him and under his keys of presidency. In this capacity, Adam is not a revealer or truth in the same way the Holy Ghost is, but he is the revealer of priesthood keys and dispensations.

Context changes everything.

EDIT: If I were to take this too literally, the Melchizedek Priesthood would be the Holy Ghost! Also, my notes are in italics

[Drewm777]

Also, for what it's worth, I found the Wikipedia article on Adam-God very historically accurate, fair, and useful:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam%E2%80%93God_theory