Universal Apostasy Or Not?

[Dale]

The LDS feel you can lose salvation atleast regards to the Celestial kingdom. It's much harder to lose all salvation in the sense of failing to live Celestial law, and then going to outer darkness as a result. So in a sense LDS who know they arn't living Celestial law doubt they are saved. But in another sense they can be extremely confident they are saved from outer darkness.

Evangelicals don't think they are in danger of losing salvation for not trying to be perfect. LDS who drink a cup of coffee think they are in danger of losing a type of salvation. LDS clearly reject the once saved always saved idea. But losing salavion to an Evangelical would mean going to hell. LDS are more merciful in seeing a saved person sent to a lower kingdom, but not hell.

[BCSpace]

In light of what BCSpace told me:

There is no gap in LDS theology. Being born again is to have the assurance of future salvation and is evidenced Lexiconally in that the verses which in english seem to say that we are saved now are actually a condition of looking forward for a future reward IF the conditions are met.

EV's have always been behind the curve when it comes to Biblical scholarship, but this has been around for so long it's inexcusable.

I wonder if BCSpace will "follow" the example of his apostle and answer, "Yes, I have been saved."

Based on the definition, though, we still have a major problem. It's that definition that spells out the fallaciousness of the LDS doctrine of grace.

All Bob has done by referencing DHO is show how LDS doctrine takes all verses and scholarship into account. We are still awaiting Bob's response on how EV doctrine takes all verses and scholarship into account.

Specifically he needs to address the verses given requiring works for salvation, salvation as a promise of future (and conditional) reward, salvation not achieved until one has endured to the end and Pauls statement that he is not saved yet.

I've yet to meet an EV who has an answer or who doesn't dodge and evade these verses. Given the larger purported stature of this EV, one expects much better. Maybe my expectations are too high? Perhaps this is not Bob Betts at all but a poorly informed lackey posting in his place (surely Bob is too busy to be posting here)?

[BCSpace]

Finally, many recent conference talks address this doctrine specifically. (See below). For example, after describing the many ways in which the term 'saved' is used in LDS theology, Elder Dallin H. Oaks taught:

...all should answer: â??Yes, I have been saved. Glory to God for the gospel and gift and grace of His Son!â?[4]

I wonder if BCSpace will "follow" the example of his apostle and answer, "Yes, I have been saved."

Is Bob the victim of an antiMormon coloring book? Perhaps one of his own making? Here is the quote in context.....

â??Who glorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed himâ? (D&C 76:40â??43; emphasis added).

The prophet Brigham Young taught that doctrine when he declared that â??every person who does not sin away the day of grace, and become an angel to the Devil, will be brought forth to inherit a kingdom of gloryâ? (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Brigham Young [1997], 288). This meaning of saved ennobles the whole human race through the grace of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. In this sense of the word, all should answer: â??Yes, I have been saved. Glory to God for the gospel and gift and grace of His Son!â?

Dallin H. Oaks, â??Have You Been Saved?,â? Ensign, May 1998, 55

So here really is an example of enduring to the end. All those not found to be sons of Perdition at the last day are indeed saved somewhere in the kingdom of God.

[Paul Ray]

I think way too much grace/works/salvation discussion has occurred to turn back now. And I certainly don't want to start the discussion all over again, in another thread. Sorry.

I think it might have helped to have had a moderator to tell us to get back on topic, before, but right now, I agree, we are knee deep in this and we might as well wade through it.

... unless, of course, a moderator comes in later to tell us to get back on topic.

... in which case we would then either get back on topic or continue as usual, possibly receiving the wrath of the moderators if we did not comply.

Anyway, just letting you know that for now, I am game for this issue, come Hell or higher waters.

[Paul Ray]

1) Show me where Paul refers to himself as a prophet, or where he is called a prophet.

Think about it, some more.

What is a prophet? What does a prophet do?

Did Paul say anything that would lead you to believe he was a prophet?

If not, why pay attention to him?

Do you now get the gist of how there at least could have been an apostasy?

Why listen to Paul, or Peter, or John?

If every member of the Church is a Christian, and every Christian is a member of the Church, in your perspective, why not pay attention to anybody/everybody who claims to be a Christian and a member of God's church, in their perspective?

Iâ??m sure many people broke away from the Church just because they thought they could do just as well as the apostles were doing.

2) To the Philippians and the Thessalonians, Paul clearly refers to himself as an ensample (example). To the Thessalonians, he talks about his behavior among them before admonishing them to follow his example. To the Philippians he admonishes them to walk in the manner of his example. To the Corinthians Paul spoke allegorically about being a father to them, having begotten them through the gospel. And, although there are thousands of instructors, he wants them to follow him like a father.

Iâ??m sure all the apostates would have wanted others to follow their examples too.

Why listen to the apostles when anyone/everyone in the Church automatically has the priesthood?

We're never instructed to follow prophets or Apostles in the LDS sense of the word "follow," as spelled out in The Fourteen Fundamental of Following the Prophets. Never and not even close. Not Moses, not anybody.

Then donâ??t follow them, then. Make your own decisions. Thatâ??s what all the apostates are doing.

Just don't be surprised when you find out God appointed certain people to be the leaders over all other Christians, even in this day and age.

We have modern apostles of our Lord today, Bob, even though you don't acknowledge them as your leaders.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

2) To the Philippians and the Thessalonians, Paul clearly refers to himself as an ensample (example). To the Thessalonians, he talks about his behavior among them before admonishing them to follow his example. To the Philippians he admonishes them to walk in the manner of his example. To the Corinthians Paul spoke allegorically about being a father to them, having begotten them through the gospel. And, although there are thousands of instructors, he wants them to follow him like a father.

We're never instructed to follow prophets or Apostles in the LDS sense of the word "follow," as spelled out in The Fourteen Fundamental of Following the Prophets. Never and not even close. Not Moses, not anybody.

Bob, you arent makeing any sence here. I mean this out of no disrrespect. If Paul isnt an apostle then who was he, yes I know he was an ensample, but who was he. Why is his writings, scripture if he isnt a prophet or an apostle? Should we then disregard Pauls words then? You clearly dont want to acknowledge that Paul is telling us to follow him. I dont get it.

[BCSpace]

We're never instructed to follow prophets or Apostles in the LDS sense of the word "follow,"

If you believe Ephesians 4:11-14 to be the word of God, you are.

[Hammer]

I recall Dr, Gleason Archer an Evangelical scholar teaching that the thief went to an infernal paradise. That when Jesus ascended to the Father he took the thief to heaven. It was in a book of his dealing with Bible difficulty's. I no longer have his book, but found something from the Christian Research Institute that commented on the problem of Luke 23:43 and John 20:17. http://afgen.com/cults.html

If we are speaking about the theif on the cross aren't we assuming because it was taught back then, baptism for the dead? 1 Corinthians 15:29: Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all?

John 5: 25

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

1 Pet. 3: 18-19

18 For Christ also hath once asuffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

[Dale]

If you believe Ephesians 4:11-14 to be the word of God, you are.

In my Ron Rhodes and Marian Bodine book they use Ephesians 4:11-14 to argue against the total apostasy. The argument goes something like the church was supposed to go to maturity not degeneraton. A maturing church can't go totally apastate as a portion of the mortal church is maturing. They stated the argument better than i could.

My Community of Christ church doesn't believe in baptism for the dead. My Doctrine and Covenants placed the documents from the nauvoo period in a historical appendix and conference had the appendix removed in the 1990's. so my church edition of the D.&C. no longer has those documents in them. So we see the thief on the cross as being saved without the need for proxy baptism.

Not every Evangelical thinks the thief on the cross went to a different place than heaven.

[BCSpace]

So we see the thief on the cross as being saved without the need for proxy baptism.

Not every Evangelical thinks the thief on the cross went to a different place than heaven.

Not everyone believes/knows about John 20:17 either which precludes the thief and Jesus from being in the place of salvation during those three days if one believes it is the word of God.

I understand much of what others believe or don't believe (or at least, that they do or do not believe). But what is more important is what is true. Therefore belief must be consistent within the standards that belief swims in. In this case, the beliefs being presented fall within the standard of the Bible. The Bible being a common standard, is useful in checking these beliefs for consistency. A belief that the thief in the cross was saved that day, with or without works, is not consistent with Bible teaching.

[Dale]

I was always figure it's good to expose other's to different view's on scriptures i read.

[Paul Ray]

Does everyone understand that "apostasy" simply refers to falling away or going in another direction?

Apostasy is basically the opposite of repentance, and many people just don't know when they need to repent because they think they are right.

Those who apostasized from the Church before, therefore, are those who left the Church to go another way than the way of the Church while thinking that their way was just as good or better than the way of the Church, which is why they left the Church to do things another way.

For instance, if members of the "Baptist" church were to separate themselves from the "Baptist" church to form what they might then call the "Methodist" church... another church which is not another church with the same leaders as the Baptist church, but another organization, entirely... the members of the "Baptist" church who separated themselves from the "Baptist" church to form the "Methodist" church would actually be apostates of the "Baptist" church.

... understand, though, that I'm not talking about one large group of members of the Baptist church dividing into two smaller groups where all the members are still members of the Baptist church. I'm talking about members who would actually separate themselves from the Baptist church, totally, possibly because they didn't like the way things were done in the Baptist church, and forming another organization.

Part of the problem, I think, is that this is done all the time in Christendom and many people don't really think there is anything wrong with doing it. They don't seem to see the value of sticking together as one organization to be that big of a biggie... while we (LDS) do.

... and it really doesn't matter if someone calls it another church of Christ, or not.

What matters is whether or not it is still the same organization as the first true church of Jesus Christ.

[BCSpace]

Part of the problem, I think, is that this is done all the time in Christendom and many people don't really think there is anything wrong with doing it. They don't seem to see the value of sticking together as one organization to be that big of a biggie

They have to believe that way else logically be forced to acknowledge the apostasy as universal.

I was always figure it's good to expose other's to different view's on scriptures i read.

It is good.

[Paul Ray]

They have to believe that way else logically be forced to acknowledge the apostasy as universal.

I'd be thrilled if I just saw everyone who has read this thread acknowledge that they understand what we (LDS) are talking about when we refer to "apostasy", and why we refer to it as the "Great Apostasy".

... instead of just seeing people say something like:

What are you talking about? There was never a Great Apostasy, in the sense that you mean it.

Is that really too much to ask?

[Bob Betts]

"Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law (Rom 3:28).

A common EV mistake is to take verses that refer to the law of Moses and apply them to all deeds and works.

Several verses DO refer to either good works or the law.

Grace is in contrast with works:

Rom. 11:6 And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

Grace is also in contrast with the law:

John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Gal. 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

No one is justified by good works OR the law.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Rom. 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Eph. 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

2 Tim. 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

In the above example, Betts has made Romans 3:28 conflict with....

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. James 2:24

... and several other verses besides such as Matthew 25:31-46 which he did not address with anything other than denial.

Nnnno, you only assert that I've made a conflict, because you have cherry-picked 2:24 out of context, trying to force your LDS doctrine into where it cannot and will not fit. You've neglected James' explanation in verses 22-23, which causes verse 24 to make perfect sense, and not in contradiction to anything Paul said. I've already explained it to you once. If you don't get it, even though you think you do, then there's no sense going over it again.

Also, I said more than to just deny your interpretation of Matt. 25:31-46. You should stop making wild and untrue assertions about me and what I have or have not said.

BCS: No, he said nothing about anyone already being saved (as if there were such a thing).

"By grace you have been saved" (Eph. 2:5, 8}

2 Tim. 1:9 "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,"

BCS: He simply gathered the sheep who had done the works on his right and the goats who had not done the works on his left and sent the ones on the left to hell because they had not done the works and sent the ones on the right to heaven because they had done the works.

And, I asked and explained, "Who do you think His sheep are? Jesus said, John 10:27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;""

They're not just wild sheep out somewhere doing good works to earn their sheephood. They're followers of their Shepherd. They're believers in their Shepherd. Please listen to Paul explain to the Church at Ephesus, the believer's salvation in the present tense:

1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

The only "future" talk is in verse 10, where he talks about gathering together all things that are in Christ, at the end of this dispensation, when the time is full. That's when those of us who have been saved by His blood and death on the cross, will recieve the promised inheritance which is already sealed by the Holy Spirit. Done deal.

Believers have salvation, being sealed, being adopted and having a sure inheritance.

Bob: Unbelievers are not sheep. They're goats. "Sheep" is analogous to those people who have been saved by the blood of the Shepherd. The "sheep" who do the works of the Father are His sheep (Eph. 2:10). Goats are the ones who do not do the works of the Father, because they don't belong to Him. What is done that is not of faith in Christ is sin (Rom. 14:23).

Was there something wrong with this explanation? Do think sheep are unbelievers and unsaved by the Shepherd, until they prove themselves worthy to be called sheep? He's their Shepherd. He lays (laid) His life down for them. They're not His sheep because they earned it. That's non-sense.

In John 10, Jesus said, "14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. 15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep." To know and be known by the Shepherd, is to be in right relationship with Him. They're believers. Believers are saved people, sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, inheritors of all things in Christ, adopted by Christ, and predestined to be so. They're not non-sheep trying to earn sheephood, nor are they goats trying to be worthy of being transformed into sheep. Sheep are sheep. And, Christ's sheep are His sheep from the beginning.

BTW, do you see anywhere in the NT where Jesus laid down His life for the goats?

BCS: Therefore, Jesus said works are required for salvation.

Bob: He never said that at all...not once. Not in Matt. 25:31-46. Not in any passage. You're making an assumption, while not taking the rest of the NT scriptures about salvation into consideration or context.

So, let's look at it again. In which verse does Christ say anything like "works are required for salvation"?

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

You've falsely interpreted Christ to be saying that the sheep are sheep because they earned the privilege of becoming sheep, by their good works. But, they were already His sheep.

You need to read John 10 and learn more about sheep. You've got an entirely wrong idea about them. In the analogy about salvation, you actually believe that sheep are not sheep until they prove they are sheep by their works. Think about how that sounds. Does that sound logical to you?

[Bob Betts]

We're never instructed to follow prophets or Apostles in the LDS sense of the word "follow,"

If you believe Ephesians 4:11-14 to be the word of God, you are.

What does this passage have to do with any command or expectation of God to follow prophets? Could you make the similarity connection between this passage and any part of the Fourteen Fundamentals of Following the Prophets?

[BCSpace]

We're never instructed to follow prophets or Apostles in the LDS sense of the word "follow,"

If you believe Ephesians 4:11-14 to be the word of God, you are.

What does this passage have to do with any command or expectation of God to follow prophets? Could you make the similarity connection between this passage and any part of the Fourteen Fundamentals of Following the Prophets?

I never even attempted to connect Ephesians 4:11-14 to a nonofficial talk given at BYU. Did you not notice that I never referenced it? Are you not familiar with what LDS doctrine is? The concept has been around since D&C 107 and the recent 'Approaching Mormon Doctrine' news release on lds.org simply restates what has been around for decades.

But that verse set does show that living apostles and prophets are required in the Church (till we all come in unity of the faith) and that it is they who disseminate and determine doctrine (That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine) in accordance with 2 Peter 1:20.

So yes, the verses do show the LDS sense of following the prophets and since you claim the Bible to be the word of God also, you are under the same instruction.

Bob: He never said that at all...not once. Not in Matt. 25:31-46. Not in any passage. You're making an assumption, while not taking the rest of the NT scriptures about salvation into consideration or context.

So, let's look at it again. In which verse does Christ say anything like "works are required for salvation"?

Yes, let's take a look. I'm sure you'll agree that feeding the hungry, taking in strangers, clothing the naked, and visiting the sick and prisoners are works?.....

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting dfire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

So those who did the works go into eternal life and those who do not the works into hell. Therefore, works are required for salvation as per Jesus' own words.

You've falsely interpreted Christ to be saying that the sheep are sheep because they earned the privilege of becoming sheep, by their good works. But, they were already His sheep.

In verse 32 we see the great separation between the sheep and the goats at the last day when all nations are gathered. The remaining verses show why some are sheep and some are goats. Are there any sheep that have not done the works? No.

[PacMan]

Bob,

PacMan: Christ commanded us to be baptized.

True, but not to be saved. Why? Because, becoming a child of God (salvation) is "not of blood, not of the will of the flesh, not of the will of man (Rom. 9:16), not of ourselves (Eph. 2:8}, not of works (Eph. 2:9; 2 Tim. 1:9)."

Have you never seen:

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ

The fact is, Peter says baptism saves us. You are distinctly incorrect.

PacMan

[BCSpace]

A common EV mistake is to take verses that refer to the law of Moses and apply them to all deeds and works.

Several verses DO refer to either good works or the law.

Grace is in contrast with works:

QUOTE

Rom. 11:6 And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

An error in correlation. Grace is not in question as it is LDS doctrine that grace is the operation that saves. We are speaking of requirements for salvation hence this verse says nothing against LDS doctrine.

Grace is also in contrast with the law:

QUOTE

John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Gal. 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Again the common EV mistake of confusing the law of Moses with gospel law. Was this just filler?

No one is justified by good works OR the law.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Rom. 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Eph. 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

2 Tim. 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

None of those verses say anything at all about being justified, whereas you have the aforementioned Matthew 25:31-46 illustrating Jesus' requirements for salvation as well as....

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. James 2:24

So here we have more evidence that to conflict with LDS doctrine is to conflict with the Bible and all Christianity.

Nnnno, you only assert that I've made a conflict, because you have cherry-picked 2:24 out of context, trying to force your LDS doctrine into where it cannot and will not fit. You've neglected James' explanation in verses 22-23, which causes verse 24 to make perfect sense, and not in contradiction to anything Paul said. I've already explained it to you once. If you don't get it, even though you think you do, then there's no sense going over it again.

Now you're obfuscating. If you'll revist the post, you'll see that I actually quoted the verses previous to 24 (which you had actually missed and illustrated how they show James 2:24 to be correct, that by works men are justified (as well as faith). The fact that you did not qote them here or addressed my explaination is curious. More filler being traded for time I'd say because you have no real answers.

Also, I said more than to just deny your interpretation of Matt. 25:31-46. You should stop making wild and untrue assertions about me and what I have or have not said.

Only now in a recent post did you make the attempt other than pure denial.

BCS: No, he said nothing about anyone already being saved (as if there were such a thing).

"By grace you have been saved" (Eph. 2:5, 8}

2 Tim. 1:9 "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,"

Have you checked the lexicon yet? These are promises of future and conditional blessings. Thus here is more evidence in addition to numerous Bible verses that there are requirements for salvation (and that one must endure to the end before salvation).

BCS: He simply gathered the sheep who had done the works on his right and the goats who had not done the works on his left and sent the ones on the left to hell because they had not done the works and sent the ones on the right to heaven because they had done the works.

And, I asked and explained, "Who do you think His sheep are? Jesus said, John 10:27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;""

Amen. They are born again (which is not salvation).

They're not just wild sheep out somewhere doing good works to earn their sheephood.

A violation of the Biblical injunctions against OSAS (2 Peter 2 :20 etc.) and the Biblical concept of enduring to the end.

The only "future" talk is in verse 10, where he talks about gathering together all things that are in Christ, at the end of this dispensation, when the time is full. That's when those of us who have been saved by His blood and death on the cross, will recieve the promised inheritance which is already sealed by the Holy Spirit. Done deal.

This is still only a promise of future salvation. Notice that the blessings are indeed ready and waiting, but you don't actually have or enjoy them. You are not resurrected and you are not with God in heaven and that makes this a verse set that confirms what I said you'd find in the lexicon on saved and salvation, it's NOT a done deal until you are actually there.

Bob: Unbelievers are not sheep. They're goats. "Sheep" is analogous to those people who have been saved by the blood of the Shepherd. The "sheep" who do the works of the Father are His sheep (Eph. 2:10). Goats are the ones who do not do the works of the Father, because they don't belong to Him. What is done that is not of faith in Christ is sin (Rom. 14:23).

Was there something wrong with this explanation?

Yes. No one is saved in this life.

Do think sheep are unbelievers and unsaved by the Shepherd, until they prove themselves worthy to be called sheep?

Believers become sheep in as much such as they work and show faith (James 2:24 again). That is called exercising faith.

He's their Shepherd. He lays (laid) His life down for them. They're not His sheep because they earned it. That's non-sense.

Jesus laid down his life for all peoples, that is grace. Salvation is meritorius as abundantly evidence in the Bible. Faith and works are the key by which grace is activated.

BTW, do you see anywhere in the NT where Jesus laid down His life for the goats?

Yes, in the sense that all have opportunity to become sheep. John 3:16 etc. God so loved the world...

[Bernard Gui]

2 Nephi 31:14-21 does not address what I was referring to: three heavens, of which you spend your life trying to earn your way to the highest one, by good works.

The details of the divisions of heaven were revealed to Joseph Smith.

Eternal life is by definition life in the Celestial Kingdom. 2 Nephi 31:14-21 teaches the need for enduring to the end in order to be accepted into that kingdom, ie., to receive eternal life. That is how the passage is

understood by Mormons.

Why would your good works give me heartburn? I don't understand the question.

I don't understand your preoccupation with LDS emphasis on living a Christian life. I find it totally

consistent with Ephesians 4 to put oneself out there for the Lord and live as he did.

Do you not yet understand that your good works will not save you? Do you not yet understand what James was talking about? Your works won't save you. There is not one verse in the NT that says your works will save you. I have provided a verse that DOES tell you that good works don't save anyone (Rom 11: 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace.). What James said was that works demonstrate that a person already has a faith that will save him (2:18).

Do you not understand that LDS don't believe works save them? That is the biggest strawman in the

anti-LDS arsenal. I was saved by the Lord Jesus Christ when he was resurrected.

As far as what you do with your life and what it means to me: I'm not prying into your personal life. I'm have a biblical discussion with those who are like interested. What you do with you life is between you and God. I wouldn't even be at this site if people hadn't asked me to stay and answer their questions. If you think I'm somehow getting to personal with your life, feel free to avoid participation in the discussion.

You have misunderstood. I'm not worried about my personal life. I am perplexed why you should have a problem with doing good. Perhaps I misunderstand what you

are saying. Let's clarify things. I believe 2 Nephi 30, Ephesians 4, 2 Peter 1, and many other scriptures,

and the two quotes from the Church Fathers in my signature, teach that once I've laid my hand on the plow, I've got some serious farming to do. So, if I believe I have an obligation to serve God and his children until I leave this world, or "do works" such as those I listed earlier, why should you object?

It seems that Christians would rejoice that Mormons want to do good works. I would rejoice if you

walked the path of the Lord. Is the problem that I think I can choose of my own free will to serve the

Lord?

I find harmony with the Early Church Fathers. To better explain my position, I give you the following

quotes (there are many more I could provide). Of course, they could be mistaken, but some of them

knew the original apostles. I'm comfortable reading these words about works and earning and pay and storing up and receiving according to deeds. Are you?

Epistle of Barnabas

Let us become spiritual, let us become a temple perfect unto God. As far as in us lies, let us exercise ourselves in the fear of God, [and] let us strive to keep His commandments, that we may rejoice in His

ordinances. The Lord judgeth the world without respect of persons; each man shall receive according to his deeds. If he be good, his righteousness shall go before him in the way; if he be evil, the recompense of his

evil-doing is before him; lest perchance, if we relax as men that are called, we should slumber over our sins, and the prince of evil receive power against us and thrust us out from the kingdom of the Lord.

Clement to the Corinthians

Let us strain every nerve to be found among those who wait in patience for Him, so that we too may earn a share of His promised gifts. And how is this to be done, my friends? Why, by fixing our minds trustfully on God; by finding out what is pleasing and acceptable to Him; by doing whatever agrees with His perfect will; by following the paths of truth...And it is by that very way, dear friends, that we find our own salvation: even Jesus Christ, the High Priest by whom our gifts are offered, and the Protector by whom our feebleness is aided. Through Him we can look up to the highest heaven and see, as in a glass, the peerless perfection of the face of God.

The Epistle to Diognetus

If you love Him, you will become an imitator of his goodness...if a man will shoulder his neighbor's burden; if he be ready to supply another's need from his own abundance; if, by sharing the blessings he has received from God with those who are in want, he himself becomes a god to those who receive his bounty - such a man is indeed an imitator of God.

Ignatius to Polycarp

Make every effort to satisfy the Commander under whom you serve, and from whom you draw your pay; and be sure that no deserter is found in your ranks. For a shield take your baptism, for a helmet your faith, for a spear your love, and for body--armor your patient endurance; and lay up a store of good works as a soldier deposits his savings, so that one day you may draw the credits that will be due to you.

Bernard

[Dale]

Do LDS mean something different from Evangelicals when they say they are saved? Book's by critic's of the LDS sometimes get into how LDS have different definition's for the same words.

The word eternal life has an different definition. Eternal life is defined as exaltation. Anybody not exalted under a wider definition of damnation though saved are termed damned. If only those who are exalted in the Celestial kingdom has eternal life that would make everybody else saved, and unsaved.

Works don't save LDS from outer-darkness. But works are conditional for exaltation. Having a place in the Celestial kingdom would involve justification by faith and works. But if you were an saved angel you would still not have eternal life.

The LDS Bible Dictionary topic of damnation gave the wider definition of damnation. (pg. 652) The problem i see is none of the scripture's cited support the definition. I think some LDS leader honestly misinterpreted D.&C. 132:4,6,27 and started a false idea if you wern't exalted you were damned. And that you also did not have eternal life.

-------------------

Bill McKeever wrote an article entitled Saved by Grace Unto Damnation?

http://www.mrm.org/topics/salvation/saved-...-unto-damnation

[PacMan]

Dale,

The problem is orthodox Christianity has evolved the word "damned." According to these same Christians, Heaven is damning. Something that damns is something that prevents, or halts. In this term, it's halting progression, perfection, etc. For those that make it to the Celestial kingdom without any desire to enjoy the new and everlasting covenant...they are also damned. Can someone be damned in Heaven...yup. Weird, eh?

PacMan

[Dale]

PacMan-I never heard an Evangelical christian say heaven is damning. It could be i missed an unusual definition that floats around.

I think D.&C. 132:4,6,27 has the damned person going to outer darkness. I don't see any scriptural reference to damnation that has one damned person saved from anything. I always see the person who has eternal life saved from the bad place. The LDS definition may also have evolved. It's unwise to use scriptural references to back up a wider definition of damnation definition that provides no clear support for the definition.

I saw no scripture that back's up the idea that any saved person has ever been described as not having eternal life.

I do understand your point though. I have no objection to the wider definition of damnation, but i doubt it's scriptural. I see a better definition as agreeing with scripture, and that's to view only those in hell as being damned. And anybody saved from hell has eternal life. The LDS Bible Dictionary has great content, but it's theology is not perfect. And when a popular definition might be wrong it makes it easier for persons like Bill McKeever to write articles answering LDS theology.

[owl]

Do LDS mean something different from Evangelicals when they say they are saved?

Yes, we have two definitions of saved:

1. Saved from physical death, "As in Adam all die even so in Christ shall all be made alive." So the resurection to some level of Glory is a free gift to all men, and all men will be resurected with some degree of Glory.

2. Saved from spiritual death where spiritual death means separation from God. When we have faith unto repantance and are born again of water and spirit, the ordinances of baptism and the laying on of hands for the Gift of the Holy Ghost, our spiritual rebirth begins. This spiritual rebirth is only possible through Jesus Christ.

The word eternal life has a different definition. Eternal life is defined as exaltation.

If you have ever considered the names and titles listed for Christ in John and Isaiah you will understand that Eternal can be a designation for God. Thus, Eternal life is not just unending life, but it is the life that God lives. Baptism qualifies us for the Celestial Kingdom if we keep our covenants, but it is possible to be in the Celestial Kingdom and still not be qualified for the same kind of life God has. The angels are examples.

Anybody not exalted under a wider definition of damnation though saved are termed damned. If only those who are exalted in the Celestial kingdom have eternal life that would make everybody else saved, and [yet] unsaved.

Damnation to us LDS does not mean condemnation but just blocked from progressing. When Christ, during the three days after his death, visited those spirits in purgatory who had not accepted the gospel in the days of Noah he began the teaching process to allow them a second opportunity to accept him. Even if they do accept him there, they are damned, blocked from progression, until someone here is baptised vicariously for them. "Why then are they baptised for the dead if the dead rise not at all." There are other sealing ordinances using the power given Peter to 'bind on earth and have it be bound in Heaven' that we should receive and that could block our maximum progression if we have not.

Works don't save LDS from outer-darkness. But works are conditional for exaltation. Having a place in the Celestial kingdom would involve justification by faith and works. But if you were saved [as an] angel you would still not have eternal life.

Those who will be cast into outer darkness are those who shed Innocent blood, ie allow Christ's blood to be shed for them in vain completely rejecting Christ and refusing to accept His sacrifice in their behalf; bitterly refusing even at the Judgement. when 'every knee shall bow and every tongue confess...'.

As to works, we really don't differ that much from Bob, we believe salvation is through His grace, but that our works done out of love for our Savior demonstrate that our faith is genuine. It is ordinances not works that qualify us for the Celestial Kingdom and for Exaltation. However, ordinances involve covenants. For example, we promise at baptism and weekly at the Sacrament to 'always remember Him and keep His commandments.

[owl]

If the quorum of 70 don't possess the keys, how can that quorum pass them on by the laying on of hands?

Still back here catching up.

Need I remind you that not every post on this board is authoritative?