Universal Apostasy Or Not?

[Obiwan]

The Preach My Gospel statement is either true or false.

Since John was an Apostle who never died, and was given the "power and the keys of this ministry," by Christ, then "presiding priesthood authority" was still on the earth. If the Nephites had the same directive from Christ, being granted the same request as John's, then four men maintained presiding priesthood authority.

NO IT IS NOT....

An Immortal having the key's still, which is essentially an Angel with a body, is not the same as a "mortal" still having the Key's. They administer in different realms.

So, it's not either true or false.

Of course, we can play that game if you want with a bunch of Biblical scriptures. So, stop with the double standards and un-qualified narrow expectations.

[Zemah]

I think this dissertation on the Apostasy proves that one exists.

[captain-jack]

I think this thread is done not for the fact that "either side" has "won or lost", but that the discussion has spun to arguments of grace being free and who the Lord gives salvation to through said grace. It's been derailed, and I don't want to think of how long ago it jumped the tracks to this rail of thought. I think that agreeing that we each have different views of it, that scripture seems to be argued both ways, and end it. And hats off to Mr. Betts for being such a good sport about taking each one of us, well most of us...my dear mob boss counselor Consiglieri, as individuals and responding to us as such. Very classy and respectful in that manner.

[Dale]

I don't see the issue of grace alone as being unrelated to the concept of total apostasy. If the reformations doctrines matched the early church that alone proves the apostasy was not universal.

The grace alone scriptures like Ephesians 2:8-9 do not say that some of those works arn't essential to salvation. Mark 16:16 treats refusing baptism as a sign of unbelief that can lead to damnation. You can't be damned for breaking a commandment without salvation being by faith and works. Breaking such a commandment should have no penalty attached if salvation were by grace alone only.

I mistake is to think salvation is any less of a gift just because some obedience is essential to salvation. We are still all guilty based on what we fail to do so salvation is still a gift. (2 Nephi 25:23; James 2:10)

----------------

I was re-pondering a book entitled Reasoning From The Scriptures With the Mormons by Ron Rhode's and Marian Bodine. They have argued that passages that commonly are used to establish a total apostasy do not. They see only a partial apostasy as being allowed by certain scriptures.

2 Thessalonian's 2:3-A Great Rebellion is one scripture they deal with. (pg. 52) I am not certain it's clear the apostasy would be total. But the some may be in control of the institutional church. They see it as an apostasy yet to come.(pg.53) They reference as proof of this 1 Timothy 4:1-3; 2 Timothy 3:1-5;4:3-4; James 5:1-8; 2 Peter 2; 3:3-6; Jude. 2 Thessalonians 2:7 indicates the rebellion had already started.

If the only time the church was to suffer great apostasy would be in the future why would we need a reformation?

[owl]

Paul Ray said "An apostle is a presiding priesthood authority who has the keys of the kingdom." Which is 'true' but misleading.

As I understand it, when an apostle is ordained he is given every key that the Prophet holds. They are prophets with a small p. However, an individual apostle does not exercise any presiding authority over the church as a whole. If he visits a stake, he presides. If the Prophet/President dies, the Quorum of Apostles presides over the entire Church until one of their number is sustained as the new prophet. Then the new Prophet presides over the Church, and the apostles again preside only in the local units that they visit.

Correct me if I am wrong people.

[Tsuzuki]

This is officially the longest thread here by a large margin. How's the horse doing?

[captain-jack]

This is officially the longest thread here by a large margin. How's the horse doing?

Dead, bruised and full of bullet holes.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Well at any rate, I hope Bob sticks around. I find you can at least have a good conversation with him. He isnt rude and he systematicaly looks at pretty much every post. I might not agree with him on very much, but none the less, he has been good to chat it up.

[captain-jack]

That is true, he is not a drive by poster and does try to have a discussion not just scream how we're wrong. Post 777 is mine.

[Dale]

I see universalism as only being present in Mormonism due to a misreading of D.&C. 76. Many have read it as saying the vast majority of mankind are saved from the fate of the son's and daughter's of perdition. I see the word's "only one's" as not saying the size as small, but merely to the category. Matthew 7:14-14 clearly has many more going to the Lake of fire than who get saved. No basis in it for saying anybody Jesus talked about in the damned category would get a saved but damned status. LDS adopted a wider definition of damnation that fit's no scripture i know of.

[PacMan]

Bob,

You have not only suggested, but now flatly indicated that God is a respecter of persons. That means he's unjust, unmerciful, and unloving...

Maybe you're right. Maybe we don't believe in the same God. I find it curious how you can cleave to a concept of God that is so antithetical to what is preached in the Bible!

I'll give a more detailed response later when I've got some more time.

PacMan

[Dale]

What is it about the Trinity that you feel that makes it anti-thetical to the Bible?

Does the idea not fit with what John 4:24 say's? Does it not fit what Deut. 6:4 and Isa.43:10 say's about God being the only God? It teaches the exclusiveness of God. Where in the whole of the Old Testament do we find Jewish people worshipping two God's as the same God? Where does God ever indicate he has knowledge of a God he is subordinate to? Certainly if Jesus was in pre-mortal form God of the Old Testament he would know of the Father as a different God? Unless of course they didn't see themselve's as being a different God.

[PacMan]

Dale,

Are you speaking to me? I didn't think so. Because if you were, I'd have to rip you for your uninvited little-sister tantrum concerning things that you are sheerly ignorant about. If you'd like to READ what I said, and READ the context from which it came...then come back to the table. But don't expect to trot on over with your water-pistols blazing red-hearings with some expectation that you're going to be taken seriously. Yours was one of the MOST naive posts I have ever had the displeasure to read, and what's worse, it's due to your own disingenuousness. READ PREVIOUS POSTS.

PacMan

[Dale]

Pacman i was talking to you. Don't take offense at what i wrote as none of it was meant to offend you. I am sorry if my comments gave offense to you as that's not what i indended. I didn't have time to re-read your previous comments to see why you thought the way you did. If you don't want to repeat yourself that's ok.

As to the question's i raised they are the kind of tough question's that i feel the LDS view can be hit with. The Bible does appear to agree with the mono-theistic Trinity in many places not the plurality of gods idea. I don't see the Trinity idea quite as antithetical to the Bible as you do. My question's simply are designed to demonstrate that the Trinity idea does harmonize with the Bible in important places. The context of some of these passages are hard to read any other way.

[Zemah]

Okay, I think I'll read this now from page one to see what you all have been saying.

I'll get back to you in a couple of months.

Zemah

[Dale]

I have been reading again Reasoning From The Scriptures with the Mormons by Ron Rhode's and Marian Bodine. Chapter 3 is entitled The Mormon Church: The Restored Church. Pages 41-61 attempt's to rebut all the proof texts used to establish a total apostasy. Acts 3:20-21 they try to limit it's interpretation to "the restoration of Israel, and day of judgement. But the verses talk of the "restitution of all things" not just a couple of things. So i am still open to it being a possible reference of the restoration of the church.

I agree with them that it doesn't teach of a total apostasy. They present their case on pages 43-45. but i don't feel a need to abandon my proof text over anything they say. I did make an adjustment on how i use the scripture citations in question. I certainly will try and give other meaning's that have been suggested by the verse. But as far as confessing i have not read the verses in context i don't see a need to do that.

On page 45 they cite Matthew 16:18 as proof the apostasy could not have happened. But does it refer to the institutional church, or churches, or the church headquartered in heaven? I recall Ed Decker once saying "You can find salvation in anybody's church." That's one of the few thing's that guy ever said that i agree with. I know of course he meant if you embrace the Evangelical understandings of course. But he said something that contain's some truth, so i use it. But anybody so saved would never be prevailed against even if they were in a wrong mortal church.

With the Trinity you can find proof texts that fit it. Some proof texts don't like John 17:21,22. Unless Jesus was referring to the oneness of the Godhead as mere role's the person's are person's. Even if their oneness goes beyond a oneness in purpose the three distinction's of God are as smart as human person's. I see that as hinting at tri-theism. I don't see how you can be one in purpose with another unless you are a person. Unless you want the argue that the three person's of God were dumb like the person's an actor play's.

I hesitate to say only Jesus the man is one in purpose with the Father.

[Bob Betts]

Bob,

Are you an ex-mormon like Hick Preacher who got saved and came out of Mormonism? What you are saying is totally antithetical to LDS thinking, and I like it!

No, I've never been LDS. Thank you.

[Paul Ray]

No, I've never been LDS. Thank you.

Someday I think you will wish you were, though.

[Bob Betts]

BTW, I was down for three days with a severe bout with the Flu. Then I had to take care of other business I'd gotten behind on.

I noticed that I forgot to log off on Friday. So, I apologize for misleading any that may have thought I was lurking but not posting. I didn't look at this site until just a few minutes ago.

Anyway, I'm back and I'll try to pick up where I left off.

[Doctor Steuss]

BTW, I was down for three days with a severe bout with the Flu.

[...]

The flu stinks. I hope you're feeling better, and I'm glad that you survived G-d's punishment for spending too much time on message boards.

Kidding.

Maybe.

[Paul Ray]

BTW, I was down for three days with a severe bout with the Flu.

Drink lots of orange juice and call Doctor Steuss in the morning.

Anyway, I'm back and I'll try to pick up where I left off.

Welcome back.

Where's the captain?

We'll be arriving at post 777 a little later this evening.

Please fasten your seat belts and prepare for a landing.

[Paul Ray]

Okay, I think I'll read this now from page one to see what you all have been saying.

I'll get back to you in a couple of months.

Zemah

Here's a summary:

There was a great apostasy from our Lord's one true church by people who were once members of our Lord's church even though some members of our Lord's church were killed and/or died and/or were translated.

The apostasy was generally caused by people who didn't think they had any need, or any more need, to be guided by our Lord's apostles as they were once guided when the apostles were living among them.

... and No, it wasn't God's fault.

I think that about covers it.

[Dale]

During this time of apostasy were person's still being made a part of the true church? And would the presence of true Christian's prevent the church from going into total apostasy? Some reason that as long as a faithful remnant of the church lived on earth we wouldn't need a restoration. That all we would need is a reformation of the church.

[Paul Ray]

During this time of apostasy were person's still being made a part of the true church?

No. There is no true church of Christ without apostles of our Lord, Jesus Christ.

... and I am referring to apostles who are living among the members to guide them into unity.

... the words of deceased apostles are good, but not enough.

... because the organization of our Lord's true church calls for person he appoints and has appointed to lead us.

And would the presence of true Christian's prevent the church from going into total apostasy?

There can be true Christian's without our Lord's church... if by "Christian" you are referring to people who try to follow Jesus Christ the best way they know how... but there can be no officially santioned organization of God's people... or Church... without people who God has appointed to lead them.

Some reason that as long as a faithful remnant of the church lived on earth we wouldn't need a restoration. That all we would need is a reformation of the church.

But man has no authority for either a "reformation" or "reorganization" without God's authority that is given to man and/or men.

People who presume to have God's authority need the very best Doctor, IMO.

... they don't seem to realize we are talking about the power of God here !!!

[Bob Betts]

Bob Betts: How could God make any demands on spiritually dead people, other than trust Christ for forgiveness of sins AND everlasting life? Christ paid the entire debt for sins, to satisfy God's demand that He, God's spotless Lamb, die for all the sins of the world.

Simple; Because spiritually dead people arenâ??t physically dead. They can still hear, feel remorse, and repent. Moreoverâ?¦to trust is a work! ARGGGHHH!

1) But, physically alive people, who are spiritually dead people, though mortal, cannot make spiritually right or good choices. They are without the faith of Christ. They are without the life of Christ. Spiritually, they are as hearing and sight impaired, and mentally challenged as a physically dead person. They can only "hear, feel remorse, and repent" after they've been made spiritually alive together with Christ to be ABLE to hear, feel remorse and repent (Eph. 2:4-5). Eph. 2:1-3, Paul explains the human condition without Christ. Verses 4-10, Paul explains the human condition WITH Christ after God, through Christ, makes them alive (quickened), spiritually speaking. Please look over verses 4-10 and tell me exactly what work(s) Paul told us to DO to be saved.

2) Trust is NOT a work. The Greek word for trust is peitho, meaning - intransitively, in the perfect and pluperfect active, "to have confidence." Trust is confidence. You don't have to lift a finger to have confidence. Confidence is a choice of agency. It's a decision. You either decide to trust or you decide not to.

There is nothing you can do to earn that unattainable grace or salvation. It's free. Good works are the grateful response of those He has rescued with His own blood and death.

Wellâ?¦except faith without works is dead. Theyâ??re not optional.

Good works are not optional for those who have been saved by faith. But, the good works of God (Eph 2:10) are not an option for those who have NOT been saved by faith. James 2:18b "shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works." We're not saved by works, but our works show our faith is alive.

Moreover, you again structure a STRAWMAN!!! Will you get it out of your warped, EV mind that Mormonâ??s believe they can EARN grace or salvation? This is so disingenuous, I wonder what business you have as a minister in any capacity! You are purposefully and now maliciously restructuring a position which has never been! It CANâ??T be earned!

Salvation comes by the grace of God, in that because of his love, mercy, and condescension, he sent his Only Begotten Son to work out the infinite and eternal atonement. This atonement brings immortality to all and offers those who believe and obey an inheritance in the kingdom of God. This celestial inheritance, itself also available because of God's grace, must be earned. It is reserved for those who live the gospel law. "We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel." (Third Article of Faith.)(Bruce R. McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 3 vols. [salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1965-1973], 2: 535.)

12. The whole gospel system is designed to enable men to turn from evil and attain righteousness by obedience to the Lord's law. Salvation is free only in the sense that it is freely available; every blessing, other than the fact of resurrection, must be earned by obedience. "Deny yourselves of all ungodliness and love God with all your might, mind and strength," is the eternal counsel of all the prophets of all the ages. (Moro. 10:32.)(Bruce R. McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 3 vols. [salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1965-1973], 3: 124.)

20. Building up yourselves] Keeping the commandments, growing in grace, acquiring the attributes of godliness, working out your salvation; salvation must be earned; it is free only in the sense that it is freely available to all who will pay the price of righteousness.(Bruce R. McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 3 vols. [salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1965-1973], 3: 428.)

In reality, this doctrine means that we earn and must earn what we get. Salvation must be earned. The plan of salvation is of value to us only as we conform, actively, to its requirements. It has been so throughout the eternities of existence. The spirit of man, seeking progress, has toiled and striven to rise towards his high destiny, the likeness of God. The privilege to come on earth was earned by him. Earth-life was not forced upon him, nor did he receive it as a gift. That doctrine lifts man into the position of kingship. He has labored and won. His battle has resulted in victory. He has the right to walk among kings. This is one of the great doctrines, often forgotten, laid down in the restored gospel of Jesus Christ. Facing the Judgment pp. 81-82

If men are to be rewarded according to their works, then since the works of men vary, the judgments of God must differ. That leads to the doctrine of graded salvation. Every person will inherit a glory of salvation, which will be the one that he has earned.(John A. Widtsoe, Joseph Smith--Seeker after Truth, Prophet of God [salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1951], 170.)

5. "John 5:29 is the verse Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon were studying and pondering - in the course of their work on the Inspired Version of the Bible - when the eyes of their understanding were opened and they received the vision of the degrees of glory (D&C 76). This vision and other revelations teach that "salvation grows automatically out of the resurrection, and the coming forth in the resurrection constitutes the receipt of whatever degree of salvation has been earned. By one degree of obedience or another, all men, in this life, develop either celestial, terrestrial, or telestial bodies (or in the case of those destined to be sons of perdition, bodies of a baser sort). In the resurrection all men receive back again 'the same body which was a natural body,' whether it be celestial, terrestrial, or what have you. That body is then quickened by the glory attending its particular type, and the person receiving the body then goes automatically, as it were, to the kingdom of glory where that degree of glory is found. (D&C 76; 88:16-33; 1 Cor. 15:35-38; Mormon Doctrine, pp. 573-79.)" (Commentary 1:196.)Bruce R. McConkie, The Mortal Messiah: From Bethlehem to Calvary, 4 vols. [salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1979-1981], 2: .)

Chew on these declarations that salvation must be earned. I'll be back tomorrow.