Universal Apostasy Or Not?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I'm up for it, I love talking with the good folks here. It's fun and stimulating - and, don't spread this around, you guys are smart and funny and ones I consider friends. But I fear I won't be able to hold up my end of the bargain because I am undecided on the issue. Still, if you allow me to jump from the assessor's fire to the refiner's fire, great.

Um Hoops? So you dont want to discuss this becuase? Do you believe that you have a choice in the matter of salvation? Simple now isnt it?

Here I think you put your finger on the philosphical inclination that leads many Christians toward your position--the idea that if humans do anything that contributes to their salvation, it simultaneously detracts from God's glory and grace.

Oh lets start a new thread on this. Great Idea.

[Paul Ray]

Let's have lunch - and bring those bills.

Okay, fine. I eat lunch at 12:00. I'll see you when I see you.

The difference being that God would stuff the bills in your pocket because He wants you to have it.

I would too, if I saw you and I actually had them to give.

When can I expect to see you?

[consiglieri]

Oh lets start a new thread on this. Great Idea.

Done and done.

[Hoops22]

Okay, fine. I eat lunch at 12:00. I'll see you when I see you.

I would too, if I saw you and I actually had them to give.

When can I expect to see you?

I want first hand testimony from at least 11 witnesses - and not from your relatives - , and archaelogical evidence that you actually have them. I won't be praying asking if I can believe you that you actually have them.

[Hoops22]

Um Hoops? So you dont want to discuss this becuase? Do you believe that you have a choice in the matter of salvation? Simple now isnt it?

Oh lets start a new thread on this. Great Idea.

The question is simple. I don't know the answer. I DO know that I am saved, but how I got that way I'm not sure.

[Paul Ray]

I want first hand testimony from at least 11 witnesses - and not from your relatives - , and archaelogical evidence that you actually have them. I won't be praying asking if I can believe you that you actually have them.

Those who receive one are free to testify that they have received one or keep it all amongst themselves.

I'm simply telling you that you can receive one if you come here and get one, for yourself.

Come and get it.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

The question is simple. I don't know the answer. I DO know that I am saved, but how I got that way I'm not sure.

Ok, Fair enoguh. There are many things that I dont know too. I guess then that if you dont know how you are saved, then can you ever claim that I or any one else is not saved? Now Im not claim that you do that. Just currious.

[Hoops22]

Ok, Fair enoguh. There are many things that I dont know too. I guess then that if you dont know how you are saved, then can you ever claim that I or any one else is not saved? Now Im not claim that you do that. Just currious.

No, I hope I NEVER claim that you or any other individual is saved or not saved. And it is Calvinism that allows me to state this so categorically. I will, however, claim that LDS is in error and that it needs correction. I hope you see the difference - I think it's significant.

[Paul Ray]

No, I hope I NEVER claim that you or any other individual is saved or not saved. And it is Calvinism that allows me to state this so categorically. I will, however, claim that LDS is in error and that it needs correction. I hope you see the difference - I think it's significant.

You can claim whatever you want to claim, as far as I'm concerned.

I just hope you understand the fact that I can also make claims concerning everything that I know, personally... even if you and I do not agree about something.

[Bob Betts]

Because the evidence that we ARE (present tense, as Paul put it) partakers of Christ is that we hold the beginning of our confidence in Christ stedfast until the end, as he said. There are inposters in the Church, you know. So, not all who are in the Church will hold stedfast until the end. Those who do, will prove they ARE partakers with Christ. Who do you think Paul was talking to, saved people or unsaved poeple? Saved people, of course. The people of God, Christ's followers. His faithful children.

I believe Paul spoke to everyone,

Who's everyone? The Apostles always wrote to local Churches and individual Christians, not to the general public. And, I doubt many of the general public was hanging out in the local Churches, since according to Acts, Christians met house to house with each other. There were no Church buildings for centuries.

but in this case it was about those who endure to the end are partakers of Christ.

That was the topic in this case, yes. But, this was not an evangelistic message to the Church, but a builiding-up and encouragement message to the Hebrew saints.

You seem to have missed that, Paul speaks to all for the benefit of all to come unto Christ.

No, when Paul and others went on their mission trips, they evangelized, with occasional stops wherever believers might be located. So, they either stopped in in-person or sent letters. They didn't write letters to non-Christians. They wrote letters to Churches or individual Christians.

Read on in verses 2-3 for the answer. Who is "them" in verse 2? "Them" is not "us" whom Paul is talking to. What happened to "them"? The preached word didn't profit "them" because they didn't have faith. But, what did Paul say "we" who "have believed" (past tense) do? We enter into His rest.

You're not reading God's word in context, and you're missing the obvious. Read the verses around a verse, rather than cherry-picking one verse out of its intended context.

Here is where I bring in the "interpreter" part. We interpret the Bible differently, just because it is not in your context doesn't mean for a fact that we are wrong. The same can be said of us about you. We both believe we have it right, but there is not proof.

It's true we interpret the Bible differently. But, why not just go by the words written on the page. Unless you think the passage is a flawed translation, we should be able to figure out the intent of the writer by the words he used, in the context of his overall message. So, if the words Paul wrote, really were, "3 For we which have believed do enter into rest," then obviously entering into God's rest is a given, for us who believe. It's not a maybe, it's not a possibility, it's not an uncertainty. Just like so many other salvation-related verses, it's a given for those who believe.

Listen to what Paul said to the saints at Ephesus: 1:13 "In whom [Christ] ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory." Here's the pattern that Paul's talking about. 1) After the saints heard the word of truth, the gospel of salvation, they trusted/believed in Christ; 2) they were sealed by the holy Spirit of promise, which is the pledge, the guarantee, the earnest of inheritance, until the time of the actual redemption, which is the time to reside in heaven.

Please understand that this salvation of Christ is not a maybe, for those who believe and trust Him. It's a guarantee, sealed by the holy Spirit. The inheritance is sure to those who believe and trust Him.

Because God DOES have expectations on His children. Those who are slothful prove that their faith is dead, if they don't demonstrate their faith with works. That's what James was talking about in chapter 2:14ff, and specifically in verse 18 when he said, "I will show you my faith BY my works." Read verse 14 to the end of Jame's chapter. If you have trouble seeing my point, I'll help you. Simply put, faith without works is dead, being alone (17). If faith is dead, then the person is not saved (verse 14). Only people whom God has been made alive with Christ are saved (Eph. 2:1-10).

We believe the same, we show our faith by our works. Where are you getting that we are saved because of our works?

From the BoM sciptures I've posted, along with the LDS definition of grace which I've posted.

2 Nephi 10:24 does not say the same thing as Rom. 5:10 and 2 Cor. 5: 18-20. They're opposites.

2 Nephi 25:23 and Moroni 10:32 do not say the same thing as Eph. 2:8-9. They're opposites.

"Grace" cannot be earned by "total effort on the part of the recipient," "after all we can do" or "if we [first] deny ourselves of all ungodliness." That's flat out not the Greek definition of "grace."

The Zoramites are not mentioned in chapter 34. But, even if you can make a case for them being the subject of those verses in Alma 34, you cannot make a case for Paul telling the same thing to the allegedly Zoramites, in 2 Cor. 6:2, who were on the other side of the planet.

Same message, different people. Could that not be possible?

The truth of God is really too important to be speculating about IMO. I would think that if Alma 34 was relevant only to the Zoramites, their would be a mention of them somewhere in the chapter. Paul's message was then and is now, that today is the day of Salvation. I don't know how you can contrue that to mean that salvation is NOT for today, but in the future, if and when we prove ourselves worthy.

Okay, you're not reading the same Bible I am, because every verse on the salvation of the saints is either present or past tense. I cannot communicate logically with someone who won't address the verses I've brought up on the subject, but instead, merely makes unsubstantiated claims like this.

If it is present for us now, it was future for them. So it should work for all three tenses then.

No. If it is present now, just as Paul taught that it was present for them then, then the only thing that is future, is actually receiving the promised, pledged, guaranteed, sealed, assured reward of eternal life, and being in the literal presense of God forever.

I have brought up a few verses with you but have yet to see them addressed, as with the removal of John/3 Nephites, some pages ago. If I have missed them, my apologies, but if I have not you are throwing stones when you have displayed the same behavior.

Sorry, my memory isn't that good. You'll have to restate the verses you'd like me to address.

Yes, expectations on the saved people of God, not on unsaved people who are not (yet, if ever) of God.

Expectations for all, if they meet them by having faith and living the best they can then they are saved. He expects the same from all of us, no matter what belief you are.

Excuse me, but there is only one acceptable belief...belief in Christ alone, for salvation. Jesus said, "No man cometh unto the Father except by Me."

The expectations of God to do good works is entirely on His true believers. Dead (spiritually dead) people cannot do ANYthing to please God, no matter how much they try, and no matter how good of a work it may seem to other people. Without faith it is impossible to please God Heb. 11:6). Dead people don't please God. They can't. They're dead. Only His spiritually alive, born-again children can do the works which God prepared beforehand for them to do (Eph. 2:10)

The "seed" is the message of the kingdom. Jesus tells of 4 different kinds of people that the seed (message) is sown in. Only one takes root in good soil, hearing and understanding the word, and subsequently bearing fruit.

Which type of person did Peter describe, similarly to the type which Jesus described?

Peter: one who is again entangled in the pollutions of the world.

Jesus: one who received the seed that fell among the thorns is the man who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke it.

Those without true faith, can only last so long, before they show their true self. The tares among the wheat. The wolves among the sheep. The types of ground in which the seed won't take root and bear fruit.

Yes, that is true, but only the Lord knows who are the tares and who are the wheat.

But, my point was, what appears to be a falling away from faith by some, is actually (according to Christ's description of the seeds), those who never took root in faith and sound doctrine to begin with. The only true believers are those who take root in the Word of God, and through faith grow and bear good fruit.

As for the planting the seed, I believe that refers to faith not the person but it could go for both.

No, Christ's descriptions were clearly of four persons, not four faiths.

True. Which was very long ago, and has nothing to do with us. He was using the angels as an example of how God spares no one who lives in sin. So?

The message has something to do with us, no matter how saved you think you are now, you can still sin and that will take your salvation away.

It is unbelievable to me that the LDS church teaches its members, that every sin you commit cancels your salvation. That is so contrary to anything that Christ or His Apostles taught. Such uncertainty you all live with, about your eternal destination, from one minute to the next. What a way to have to live. Never knowing if you are worthy enough. Christ and His Apostles repeatedly taught that we are eternally secure, if we trust Christ. I know I'M going to be with Heavenly Father. After 37 years of a relationship with Christ, there's no turning back. I'm 100% secure, because I'm 100% assured of my salvation. It's right there throughout the NT.

[consiglieri]

No, I hope I NEVER claim that you or any other individual is saved or not saved. And it is Calvinism that allows me to state this so categorically. I will, however, claim that LDS is in error and that it needs correction. I hope you see the difference - I think it's significant.

If you are a true Calvinist, you cannot correct that which God wills to leave uncorrected.

You speak blasphemy, my Calvinist friend!

All the Best!

--Cognoscente

I know I'M going to be with Heavenly Father. After 37 years of a relationship with Christ, there's no turning back. I'm 100% secure, because I'm 100% assured of my salvation. It's right there throughout the NT.

I am absolutely, 100% not guilty.

--O.J. Simpson

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

--Cognoscente

I am absolutely, 100% not guilty.

--O.J. Simpson

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!! Stop Im at work.

[Paul Ray]

Captain-Jack: I believe Paul spoke to everyone.

Bob: Who's everyone? The Apostles always wrote to local Churches and individual Christians, not to the general public. And, I doubt many of the general public was hanging out in the local Churches, since according to Acts, Christians met house to house with each other. There were no Church buildings for centuries.

... this was not an evangelistic message to the Church, but a builiding-up and encouragement message to the Hebrew saints.

... when Paul and others went on their mission trips, they evangelized, with occasional stops wherever believers might be located. So, they either stopped in in-person or sent letters. They didn't write letters to non-Christians. They wrote letters to Churches or individual Christians.

I'm a little surprised to see that you have this belief, Bob.

I agree that the apostles were writing their letters to the members of the Church they had established and not to other people who might find and read their letters later and then presume the apostles were also writing to them simply because they believe they are among the same group of "Christians".

Bob: We interpret the Bible differently, just because it is not in your context doesn't mean for a fact that we are wrong.

And neither does it mean for a fact that we are wrong just because it is not in your context.

Bob: We both believe we have it right, but there is not proof. It's true we interpret the Bible differently.

Bravo!

So who is to say who is right, and who is wrong, besides God?

Bob: ... why not just go by the words written on the page. Unless you think the passage is a flawed translation, we should be able to figure out the intent of the writer by the words he used, in the context of his overall message.

That takes us back to the "interpretation" problem, doesn't it, Bob?

I think so.

Who is to say whether or not the translation is a correct translation?

A translation of text is simply an interpretation in another language.

Bob: So, if the words Paul wrote, really were, "3 For we which have believed do enter into rest," then obviously entering into God's rest is a given, for us who believe. It's not a maybe, it's not a possibility, it's not an uncertainty. Just like so many other salvation-related verses, it's a given for those who believe.

... for those who believe what ???

That also takes us back to the interpretation issue, brother Bob.

Bob: Listen to what Paul said to the saints at Ephesus: 1:13 "In whom [Christ] ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory." Here's the pattern that Paul's talking about. 1) After the saints heard the word of truth, the gospel of salvation, they trusted/believed in Christ; 2) they were sealed by the holy Spirit of promise, which is the pledge, the guarantee, the earnest of inheritance, until the time of the actual redemption, which is the time to reside in heaven.

I believe your interpretation is flawed, somewhat... just a little bit... on this issue.

... mainly because you do not apply this thought (even possibly) to us who are LDS.

Please understand that this salvation of Christ is not a maybe, for those who believe and trust Him.

We (LDS) know that... or at least I (LDS) know that.

It's a guarantee, sealed by the holy Spirit.

Yes, it's a guarantee that we are saved if we endure to the end in our faith.

... which isn't the same as being assured of salvation no matter what we do from now on.

Bob: The inheritance is sure to those who believe and trust Him.

It's sure to happen, or an assurance of what will happen if we endure to the end, but we haven't entered into our rest yet so we must continue to press on to our goal !

On, brethren (brothers), and sisters !

On, on to the victory !

Captain-Jack: Where are you getting that we are saved because of our works?

Bob: From the BoM scriptures I've posted, along with the LDS definition of grace which I've posted.

Not totally true. You got that from your interpretation of the Book of Mormon and your interpretation of our (LDS) definition of grace, which is about as good as your interpretation of the Holy Bible.

[Bob Betts]

You know, Mr. Betts, I repeatedly tell you that is not what we teach. You have yet to prove where it is taught in our faith. CFR on LDS teaching that we must work to earn grace. If you cannot or refuse to show where we teach that, then please drop it. It's getting old.

Though I'm at least 5 pages behind in responding, now, I'm sure that one of my more recent posts answering this CFR, has come to your attention.

[Bob Betts]

The assumption you (LDS) make is, that you're actually (somehow that escapes me) still alive in your trespasses and sins, capable of doing something to assist God in your salvation effort, believing that He WANTS you to do something to help save yourself. To that end, you describe God passing a rope to you to grab onto and try with all your might to do ALL that you can do, by denying yourself of ALL ungodliness, to pull yourself up BEFORE He will pull you up.

Bob,

Well then, please disambiguate â??alive,â? because that seems to be the great source of your confusion.

MY confusion? I'm not confused. I know exactly what I'm talking about.

I think the problem might be that YOU'RE confused by what Paul meant. Let's see. Why don't you tell ME what YOU think Paul meant. Give me you're interpretation of Eph. 2:1-7:

1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

If one is dead in sin, but still â??aliveâ? with a pulse, can he still repent?

Was Paul talking about being alive with a pulse, or spiritually alive? (BTW, the KJV word for "alive" in verses 1 & 5, is "quickened.")

After Paulâ??s great transgressions, are you suggesting he never repented?

Of course not.

Are you suggesting he never was baptized?

Not at all.

And assisting God? Whatâ??s that mean?

Don't you remember Saul's conversion on his way to Damascus to persecute Christians? Christ infringed on his agency, stopping him in his tracks and blinding him. Then Christ questioned him on his purpose for persecuting Him. Tell me how Saul helped God with his own salvation.

STRAWMAN!! (You enjoy falsifying our position, donâ??t you?)

I love the truth of God. If any of your beliefs are false, it's not me falsifying them.

And yes, we have to hold onto the rope before God pulls up the rope. If not, that be a really mean trickâ??pulling up the rope without us on it! Brilliantâ?¦

PacMan, this is YOUR analogy. That doesn't make it true. Show me a single scripture passage in the Bible on salvation, where your "rope" analogy fits. Show me how it fits Eph. 2:1-7.

As far as Ephesians 2 is concerned, youâ??re leveraging argumentum ad ignorantiam to ridiculous extremes. There is nothing to suggest that Paul did not repent, nor was baptized, nor accepted the Lordâ??s rebuke.

Where did I suggest there was? I never said any of this about Paul. Quote me.

You make it sound like Paul was a dumb marionette and God pulled all the strings! Thatâ??s ridiculous!

Is it? Then you go to Acts chapter 9, and tell me what part of Saul's conversion, that Saul controlled. Tell me from chapter 9, or anywhere else in his epistles, that Paul himself testifies of a proverbial "rope," which he had to grab onto, to assist Christ in saving him.

Paul DID do something,

What?

and I bet if he were here right in front of us, heâ??d say it wasnâ??t easy, and probably painful.

In any of the passages where he testifies of his salvation, what does he ever say that he did to assist Christ in his salvation.

In fact, he talks about his experience of persecuting the saintsâ?¦do you think heâ??s bragging about it? Of course not! Heâ??s obviously remorseful.

Yes, and I never said he didn't repent. I don't know where you got that. I never said it.

Instead of passing a rope and telling you to "grab on and give it all you've got, THEN I'll save you," God said, "For by undeserved favor from me, you have been saved through faith; and that not of grabbing onto the rope, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of giving it all you've got until you've done all you can do, so that you may boast."

THEN IF IT TAKES NOT WORK ON OUR PART, WHY DOESNâ??T GOD PULL US ALL UP RIGHT NOW?Are you yelling at me or Paul for what he wrote as inspired of God?

Quit using your #%&@* "rope" analogy. It doesn't fit any scripture on salvation. It's an unbiblical analogy. You can't MAKE Paul's teaching on salvation fit your analogy or vice versa.

Gotta go. Back later to further respond.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Quit using your #%&@* "rope" analogy. It doesn't fit any scripture on salvation. It's an unbiblical analogy. You can't MAKE Paul's teaching on salvation fit your analogy or vice versa.

Gotta go. Back later to further respond.

Lol

Bob dont get mad. get glad. Ok If all we had were Pauls teachings you might have a point. Since we have more than Pauls teachings I think the anology is fitting. There does seem to be certain condition one must meet before you can access grace. Now I know you disagree, that is fine. Lets look at 1Peter 3:20-21

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Answer me this, why is this scripture here? I though baptism doesnt save us? Why does Peter put this in here. WHy not faith or grace, why baptism? It seem that baptism is a requirment. Notice also that Peter is refrenceing the flood as to signifie that even the earth need to be baptised. This clearly refers to a water baptism.

Lets take a look at some more scripture

Acts 2:38

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Looks Like Peter is giving us a patern here for being born again. Repentance then baptism then the gift of the HG.

John3:3-5

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God

Here Jesus tells Nicodemus he must be born again. Nicodemus assumes Jesus is talking about a physical birth. He then clarifies to mean of the water and the spirit. Many people think that being born of the water is a physical birth. that is wrong other wise Jesus would have said Unless you are born of the spirit you cannot enter the kingdom of heavan. Why did Christ put born of water too? Do you know anybody that has a just a spirit body that can be born of the spirit? I dont. All mankind has a physical body. Furthermore lets look at the Preexistance.

AS for the preexsitance.

Ecc12:7

7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Bob can you return to some were were you havent been? How then can we return to our Father in Heaven if we havent lived there first?

Couple this last scripture with John 3:3-5 We now know that the Savior is telling us that we must be born again as to physical and spirtual birth. We were born in the physical sence spirtually first then physically to mortal parents. Now Jesus is telling us to be born again in the spiritual sence. Being born again of the water witch is a water baptism and the spirit witch is with fire when we recieve the gift of the HG.

[PacMan]

TIME TO PLAY, NAME THAT FALLACY!!!

PACMAN: STRAWMAN!! (You enjoy falsifying our position, donâ??t you?)

Bob Betts:I love the truth of God. If any of your beliefs are false, it's not me falsifying them.

NOW, NAME THAT FALLACY!

The winner get's an e-piece of candy.

PacMan

[captain-jack]

TIME TO PLAY, NAME THAT FALLACY!!!

NOW, NAME THAT FALLACY!

The winner get's an e-piece of candy.

PacMan

We both believe in Christ, so it's either both of us are false or both are true?

[captain-jack]

I believe Paul spoke to everyone,Who's everyone? The Apostles always wrote to local Churches and individual Christians, not to the general public. And, I doubt many of the general public was hanging out in the local Churches, since according to Acts, Christians met house to house with each other. There were no Church buildings for centuries.

Then please disregard whatever Paul has said because it's not directed at you. Paul may have intended to be speaking to them, but it applies to all. That is why I believe he speaks to all.

That was the topic in this case, yes. But, this was not an evangelistic message to the Church, but a builiding-up and encouragement message to the Hebrew saints.

So they could have gone around just asking people to be saved and they could continue with their normal day not a thing changing? Or would they have to do something? Something like works? What was the point of going around when all those apostles had to do was just say, "I'm saved" and they'd be done with it. They had works to do.

No, when Paul and others went on their mission trips, they evangelized, with occasional stops wherever believers might be located. So, they either stopped in in-person or sent letters. They didn't write letters to non-Christians. They wrote letters to Churches or individual Christians.

Mission trips sound like works, salvation wasn't dependent on it, but it still is a work.

It's true we interpret the Bible differently. But, why not just go by the words written on the page. Unless you think the passage is a flawed translation, we should be able to figure out the intent of the writer by the words he used, in the context of his overall message. So, if the words Paul wrote, really were, "3 For we which have believed do enter into rest," then obviously entering into God's rest is a given, for us who believe. It's not a maybe, it's not a possibility, it's not an uncertainty. Just like so many other salvation-related verses, it's a given for those who believe.

Listen to what Paul said to the saints at Ephesus: 1:13 "In whom [Christ] ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory." Here's the pattern that Paul's talking about. 1) After the saints heard the word of truth, the gospel of salvation, they trusted/believed in Christ; 2) they were sealed by the holy Spirit of promise, which is the pledge, the guarantee, the earnest of inheritance, until the time of the actual redemption, which is the time to reside in heaven.

Please understand that this salvation of Christ is not a maybe, for those who believe and trust Him. It's a guarantee, sealed by the holy Spirit. The inheritance is sure to those who believe and trust Him.

We interpret the Bible different, we interpret the Book of Mormon differently. I'll call that up later. And it also applies to the next sentence you say. If we go with words written on the page then he was speaking to them and nothing in the Bible applies to you. You are not the intended audience. You also miss the steps in those verses:

13 In whom [Christ] ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

So they trusted and believed, then they were sealed. Not sealed before trust. Faith precedes the work and miracles. But if the faith is lacking, then there cannot be salvation. His salvation seems like a maybe to me, you have to reach certain levels before it can be given to you. Yes, that does sound like it's earned, but if there is no requirement for it then it should be given equally to everyone regardless of their faith. And if you must believe in Him, you have done a work, thus you have earned it.

We believe the same, we show our faith by our works. Where are you getting that we are saved because of our works?From the BoM sciptures I've posted, along with the LDS definition of grace which I've posted.

2 Nephi 10:24 does not say the same thing as Rom. 5:10 and 2 Cor. 5: 18-20. They're opposites.

2 Nephi 25:23 and Moroni 10:32 do not say the same thing as Eph. 2:8-9. They're opposites.

"Grace" cannot be earned by "total effort on the part of the recipient," "after all we can do" or "if we [first] deny ourselves of all ungodliness." That's flat out not the Greek definition of "grace."

The Book of Mormon was not written in Greek, so it doesn't matter what the Greek definition is to me. And you said earlier to read just what's on the page. I don't see where it says exactly "earn your grace". So what is it, interpretation or reading exactly what is said? I interpret it the same as the Bible, something must be done before salvation can be applied through grace.

Same message, different people. Could that not be possible?The truth of God is really too important to be speculating about IMO. I would think that if Alma 34 was relevant only to the Zoramites, their would be a mention of them somewhere in the chapter. Paul's message was then and is now, that today is the day of Salvation. I don't know how you can contrue that to mean that salvation is NOT for today, but in the future, if and when we prove ourselves worthy.

So Paul is speaking to everyone as you said he wasn't? Don't believe in Christ and you'll get your salvation, that is what you are saying. I don't know how you can believe that nothing is required to have salvation and grace, but say it is only for those who believe, which means SOMETHING, A WORK, must be done in order to get the salvation. That is a blatant contradiction. Either you believe (a qualifying way to prove worth and a work) and get the salvation through grace or you don't have to do anything to get it.

No. If it is present now, just as Paul taught that it was present for them then, then the only thing that is future, is actually receiving the promised, pledged, guaranteed, sealed, assured reward of eternal life, and being in the literal presense of God forever.

Wait, you are really confusing me Mr. Betts. You are saying that said salvation is being in the presence of God? Then that is the future, not now. What if you went out and broke all 10 commandments and never repented? Would you retain said salvation? Or lose it? If you keep it, why worry about what you do?

Sorry, my memory isn't that good. You'll have to restate the verses you'd like me to address.

I'll worry about that later, there was a thread I started so I won't derail this one.

Excuse me, but there is only one acceptable belief...belief in Christ alone, for salvation. Jesus said, "No man cometh unto the Father except by Me."

The expectations of God to do good works is entirely on His true believers. Dead (spiritually dead) people cannot do ANYthing to please God, no matter how much they try, and no matter how good of a work it may seem to other people. Without faith it is impossible to please God Heb. 11:6). Dead people don't please God. They can't. They're dead. Only His spiritually alive, born-again children can do the works which God prepared beforehand for them to do (Eph. 2:10)

Again, more confusion...God expecting His believers to do works? Why is there this requirement, I thought you said that it's not up to us? Dead people may not be able to do works, but those who are alive and not among His believers can. What of them, are the expectations of being good and doing good works because of their faith not applied simply because they don't believe? Or does the Lord expect them to do good and come to Him just the same as His believers?

But, my point was, what appears to be a falling away from faith by some, is actually (according to Christ's description of the seeds), those who never took root in faith and sound doctrine to begin with. The only true believers are those who take root in the Word of God, and through faith grow and bear good fruit.

No, Christ's descriptions were clearly of four persons, not four faiths.

Where does it say of four people? I don't see it literally said there, I see a parable that can be interpreted differently. Are we to read it as plain words or a parable? Or are you saying you interpret it differently and don't like how I interpret it?

It is unbelievable to me that the LDS church teaches its members, that every sin you commit cancels your salvation. That is so contrary to anything that Christ or His Apostles taught. Such uncertainty you all live with, about your eternal destination, from one minute to the next. What a way to have to live. Never knowing if you are worthy enough. Christ and His Apostles repeatedly taught that we are eternally secure, if we trust Christ. I know I'M going to be with Heavenly Father. After 37 years of a relationship with Christ, there's no turning back. I'm 100% secure, because I'm 100% assured of my salvation. It's right there throughout the NT.

Unrepented sin cancels the salvation. If you do not repent, then you are not turning to a life a Christ, can that not be agreed upon? There is a book that will be coming out soon that I'm reading, I was lucky enough to get in on the "beta" readings for proofing, it's called the Sin of Certainty. It relates how being so certain of things can be prideful and must be used carefully. Please show where the apostles said they know that they will be with Heavenly Father no matter how evil they are from that day forward. Or was that contingiant on them continuing what they were doing? Oh and throw out all the stuff about being judged in the end because it doesn't matter if you accept Christ, it's pointless to go through because your sin no longer matters.

[captain-jack]

I submit that I should have 777 since Mr. Betts took 666. I'll pirate it if I have to.

[Paul Ray]

I submit that I should have 777 since Mr. Betts took 666. I'll pirate it if I have to.

But I, uh...

Heh, okay, you can have it... as far as I am concerned.

[Paul Ray]

TIME TO PLAY, NAME THAT FALLACY!!!

NOW, NAME THAT FALLACY!

The winner get's an e-piece of candy.

PacMan

Very well. I hereby dub, er, uh, NAME that FALLACY!

Please make mine a chocolate e-piece of candy, if you have it to spare.

And btw, the part of Bob's statement which I personally believe to be fallacious is the part conveying the idea that Bob isn't the one, or someone, who is saying that our beliefs are false.

Bob has certainly done that on a number of occassions.

... which, hereby, makes him a false witness, or a witness who testifies of what is false.

... in contrast with a witness who simply testifies of what is true, like God does.

... you know, like God, the Holy Spirit, does.

... the Holy Spirit which is aka the Spirit of truth.

I hope you have chocolate candy. I like chocolate candy.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

TIME TO PLAY, NAME THAT FALLACY!!!

NOW, NAME THAT FALLACY!

The winner get's an e-piece of candy.

PacMan

Logical fallacy of a false dilemma? I though I would just take a stab it, had false in it, and since everything is false. You know??

[Bob Betts]

WHY ARE SOME STILL FLOUNDERING? IF ITS ALL UP TO GOD, WHY DOESNâ??T HE CAUSE US ALL TO REPENT AND BELIEVE, INSTEAD OF â??MAKINGâ? OTHER NOT, AND GO TO HELL?

I don't know. What does God know about the human condition and the individual soul, which we don't, that Christ would inform and warn us: 7:13 "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:" God has His reasons for whom he saves and whom he doesn't and why. God foreknows the hearts of man, and knows ahead of time, that no amount of courting the soul will turn their hearts back to Him.

Ohâ?¦so we need to humble ourselves? Sound like a work to me!

When God convicted me of my sins, I didn't have to work at humbling my pride. It was automatic.

And DEAD is because we are spiritually unclean, incapable of returning to Godâ??s presence.

1) DEAD because we don't spiritually comprehend the depth of our depravity, or the sufficient sacrifice for all our sins. Nor can we do anything about it when our eyes and ears are opened by God, except accept Christ and His sacrifice as totally sufficient, and glorify God for His mercy for each regenerated soul. 2) There's no returning to God's presense, since pre-existence is not a biblical concept. (Don't start another rabbit trail.)

We ARE dead, because sin separates us from God and thereâ??s nothing we can do about it without Christâ??s help.

1) Your wording still sounds like it IS something WE can do WITH Christ's help. The fact remains, biblically speaking, that there is NOTHING we can do to procure our salvation, since Christ's atonement was all sufficient for all our sins, leaving us with the free gift of salvation, by His unearnable favor toward us, through trust (faith) in Him and His all-sufficient atonement. Jesus Christ did not just give us help. He did it all...on the cross. 2) You telling me that "there's nothing we can do about it," doesn't ring true in light of your LDS definition of "grace," 2 Nephi 10:24, 25:23 and Moroni 10:32.

You cheapen that free gift of salvation in your belief that there is anything you can do to save yourself, after Christ did ALL that was required of the Father to satisfy the debt of your sins. THAT'S the atonement. Christ earned your eternal life FOR you on the cross. He bought your ticket to hell with His life.

Again, you proof-text and twist my words. And no, it is not cheapened, but appreciated. Until you go through the pains of experience, you never fully appreciate thingsâ?¦from childhood until we die, if we donâ??t suffer the pains of experience, we canâ??t fully appreciate the benefits of grace.

I don't believe this. Just knowing that while I was yet a depraved human being, He died for all my sins, is enough for me to appreciate God's grace on me. What do the painful experiences of life have to do with appreciating grace?

But you ARE right, that Christ DID all that was required of the Father to satisfy the debt of your sin. And whatâ??s the exchange? To accept Christ, to follow him, and be baptizedâ?¦.all works.

No. The exchange is accepting Christ, period. Following Christ and getting baptized are the works that saved people do. Not the works that they do to BE saved.

Tell me why you think Paul told the Ephesians that salvation is "not of ourselves" and "not of works"? Why did Paul tell Timothy, 2 Tim. 1:9 "[God] Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began"? Was Paul wrong?

You ARE nothing, and could DO nothing to please God prior to accepting His perfect propitiation for your sins, as the absolutely free gift, by God's absolutely undeserved and unattainable favor on you, which He freely offers you. Dead people can do nothing for themselves.

â??Accepting?â? Sounds like another work to me.

Oh, so now trusting in Christ is a "work." So, then Paul was absolutely clueless when he told the Ephesians and Timothy that salvation is not of works?

I really think your are on the fringe of anti-mormonism because you seem to shutter at the thought that our doctrine makes sense.

It makes absolutely NO sense in light of the official LDS definition of grace, 2 Nephi 10:24, 25:23 and Moroni 10:32.

If you accept Christ, thatâ??s a work.

Paul was wrong?

And when you do, you repent. Thatâ??s a work.

Repentence is what saved people do after Christ saves them by faith, not of works.

Part of the repentance process is baptismâ?¦and thatâ??s a work.

There's no mention of a "repentence process." That's LDS lingo, not found anywhere in the Bible. Repentence is a decision, just like deciding to trust Christ. Those aren't "works," or Paul was all wrong.

And itâ??s all encompassing of being obedientâ?¦which is also a work.

Obedience is a work that saved people do because they are saved, not to BE saved, because salvation is a free gift, like Paul said. Was Paul wrong?

There's no proverbial rope, PacMan, that God expects you to grab onto and strain to earn forgiveness for all your sins, and earn eternal life. Christ is that eternal lifeline. He totally satisfied the requirement for all our past, present and future sins, and made the free gift of eternal life for whosoever will completely trust in Him and His all sufficient atonement. That doesn't make me lazy. It makes me incredibly thankful. It makes us want to serve Him all the more.

Keep cheerleading, but it makes not sense. So youâ??re in the pit of sin, and He comes down the well, picks you up, and brings you out without any effort on your part? THEN WHY DOESNâ??T HE DO IT FOR EVERYONE?

Answered above.

There is no justice, and it is not merciful

. Are you kidding? Justice was served in God's eyes, when Christ paid the debt for our sin on the cross with His death. Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Mercy is given by God, by sending Christ to die in our place. We're the ones who deserved to die for our sins, not the spoteless Lamb of God. Only Christ could satifisfy the penalty of death for our sins on the cross. And, Christ did it willingly. There's your mercy.

It is logically untenable, and makes God a respecter of persons which he is not!

You don't like the God of the Bible, do you? Here's something else for you to not like about the God of the Bible:

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. 19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' " 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? 22 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrathâ??prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for gloryâ?? 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

Instead of holding so fastly to your notions, why donâ??t you start treating the great problems that they introduce?

Notions? Paul keeps saying that salvation is "not of works" or "not of ourselves," and your notion is that there still has to be works.

You have a problem. You don't like what Paul taught. I keep posting what Paul taught, and you keep telling me my logic is untenable. Your argument is with him, not me. You never explain what Paul meant by what he said about salvation "not of works" or "not of ourselves," you just keep arguing with ME, as if I'M the one who said salvation is "not of works." I'm sure that what Paul said about God in Rom 9:14-24 above, must be appalling to you. Was the Apostle Paul logically untenable?

I said:

If He didn't put even minimalistic demands on the efficacy of His grace, there'd be no reason for any movement of Christianity to exist, for we'd all be saved regardless of what we believed!

Instead of telling me I donâ??t understand, why donâ??t you respond to what I say.

I'm trying. But, I'm just afraid that there's a little too much Mormonism earwax in your ears to hear.

He DID put a demand on His free gift of salvation. Receive it by trust (faith); believe: John 1:12 "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

Tell me what part of not of works, not of ourselves, not of our blood, not of the will of our flesh, not of the will of man, but of the will of God, do you not understand. I've shown you Eph. 2:8-9, 2 Tim. 1:9, Rom. 9:16 and John 1:12-13. They all say the same thing, almost verbatim. What don't you get? They all say the opposite of Your LDS definition of "grace," 2 Nephi 25:23 and Moroni 10:32. If you don't have eyes to see, I can't help you. I'll sure continue to pray for you, though.

Out of time. Back later.

[William the Conqueror]

Bob,

Are you an ex-mormon like Hick Preacher who got saved and came out of Mormonism? What you are saying is totally antithetical to LDS thinking, and I like it!