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Countermopologists Pet Theories Against The Bom


juliann

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Whenever a thread is opened about a new discovery or new interpretations the countermos begin a now very predictable and tired routine. In no particular order, we get the inevitable strawmen. I don't think I have ever seen a countermopologist address the erosion of traditional wisdom that they have used to uphold ridicule of "apologists" and the BOM. Ironically, this was said in a current thread:

Considering the number of past "evidences" that have fallen flat under scrutiny, I would think it would be the apologists who would be most insistent on reserving judgment until further research can be made.

1. How many countermopologists' "evidences" against the BOM have quietly been removed from the ridicule list?

2. How many countermos have ever admitted one of their proofs against the BOM is no longer supportable?

My favorite is the dead silence on the receding timeline on MesoAmerican civilizations. When I started on the internet there was continual ridicule that none of the civilations matched up with the timelines in the BOM. Will we ever see an acknowledgement? My second favorite is the unacknowledged DNA debacle.

Others?

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1. How many countermopologists' "evidences" against the BOM have quietly been removed from the ridicule list?

2. How many countermos have ever admitted one of their proofs against the BOM is no longer supportable?

Assuming these are serious questions, the correct answers are 37 and 1,093.

My second favorite is the unacknowledged DNA debacle.

I would like to acknowledge this if you would please explain who/what you are talking about. Which debacle do you mean? Was it the one claiming DNA evidence is fully consistent with traditional LDS beliefs about the Book of Mormon?

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Horses. We now know better.

We do?? This is news to me. Could you provide a link?

And, doesn't that speak to the credibility of the critics that once an issue has been resolved that they no longer consider it an issue? Just because there are still 50 unanswered items that discredit the BoM doesn't mean the 2 that have been disproven automatically make the BoM any more true.

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My favorite is the dead silence on the receding timeline on MesoAmerican civilizations. When I started on the internet there was continual ridicule that none of the civilations matched up with the timelines in the BOM. Will we ever see an acknowledgement?

Maybe I'm out of the loop, but which civilizations' timelines match up with the Book of Mormon?

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People used to ridicule the idea of records being kept on metal plates.

Oh, big one! The idea of cement boxes was also subject to ridicule. Now they have to narrow it and require such a box to be found in the Hill Cumorah.

Anyone see any admissions here from the countermos flooding in? (I have a few on ignore) There are some very telling threads going on right now that show the tactics, the most amusing from someone insisting "Desolation" is a common place name throughout the world.

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Just because there are still 50 unanswered items that discredit the BoM doesn't mean the 2 that have been disproven automatically make the BoM any more true.

Indeed. <strawman alert> Which makes even more odd that countermos won't freely acknowledge even one eh?

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One of the most outrageous Book of Mormon errors is Shiz's headless pushup.

Critics have cited this as an obvious and outrageous error in the Book of Mormon. Nothing could have its head cut off and survive for even a second. Joseph Smith should have known better than to allow such a tall, silly tale into the pages of this scripture -- proof that the Book of Mormon is false.

While there have been a number of examples cited of humans remaining animated for seconds after decaptiation...my favorite headless survior is a rather fowl example -- Mike the Headless Chicken.

mike_1.gif

This chicken did more than just pushups...he lived for 18 months as a famous travelling show. To this day there is a festival in his honor in Frutia, Colorado.

His story can be read here: Mike the Headless Chicken's Amazing Story.

You can read about Mike's festival here: Mike the Headless Chicken Festival.

I just love LDS apologetics.

:P

Six

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If only these poor fools knew what the countermos know:

Perhaps the most important primary concern for Latin American archaeologists is the accumulation of essential descriptive data about the archaeological record of this vast region. Many areas have had no systematic archaeological survey or excavation at all and many others are poorly known from minimal investigation. Even areas that have been the focus of regional research throughout the twentieth century, such as the Central Andes, are inadequately known. This situation has produced an anxiety about the adequacy of existing basic archaeological information on which innovative methodological development and theory production might be based. Another obstacle to creating a regional emphasis on explanation rather than description is the conditions under which archaeologists have had to develop their research. The social and political stability of both field locations and laboratory and office environments fluctuates wildly and sometimes violently in many Latin American countries. Many military coups during the course of the twentieth century have often targeted either the scientific and intellectual community or affected its output. These political upheavals have often resulted in dramatic retrograde effects on many aspects of Latin American cultural life. Frequently, such events interrupt and reduce funding available for archaeological investigations and create an environment of inconsistent research and educational policy. This obviously has affected the development of archaeological research. The subordination of academic and research institutions to political powers has generated difficult, uncertain, and interrupted directions for many archaeology programs in Latin America. Additionally, poor libraries and difficulties in obtaining complete and current publications from colleagues in other parts of Latin America and the rest of the world plague most research institutions.
In short, the data (when adequate) enter the international debate; the ideas, models, concepts, and methodological development usually remain in the country where they originated, and exceptionally circulate within the region. Usually, only infrequent mention is made of such work, and these advances in explanation remain largely ignored in regional syntheses and topical discussions by the majority of the archaeological community outside of Latin America.
Commonly, reasons given for ignoring current Latin American archaeological developments are that the literature is in Spanish or that it is difficult to obtain work published in Latin America. Although this may be true, this does not excuse such survey works from making efforts for fair inclusion of the voices and opinions of archaeologists who live and conduct research in the areas (both geographical and epistemological) that these supposedly global publications cover. Articles on the Central Andes and Mesoamerica published in Latin American Antiquity are also good examples.

From: The Theoretical Landscape and the Methodological Development of Archaeology in Latin America. Contributors: Gustavo G. Politis - author. Journal Title: American Antiquity. Volume: 68. Issue: 2, 2003. pg. 245

The second quote is what is going to continue to give the antis heartburn as news reports pick up the more unusual findings...and we seem to have such an article posted on a regular basis now.

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People used to ridicule the idea of records being kept on metal plates.

Now we know that there are a handful of examples of small amounts of material being written on up to four metal plates. There are still no examples of lengthy histories being recorded on metal plates.

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Nevo:

Probably none survived being melted. But who knows what some archaeologist will dig up next.

What intrigues me is that the countermos will not take this stance when that next dig may be in their corner. LDS have always been open to new discovery...which puts us in league with educated people. I find the fundamentalist like mindset that all that all necessary knowledge is available for anyone claiming to be educated, enlightened or intellectual absolutely mystifying. Not to mention embarrassing.

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And, as a counterpoint, "how many apologetic rationalizations have bitten the dust so far?"

Well, none...as long as they keep the tiniest shred of plausibility, they are still counted as alive and well.

Oh, wait...I guess Stela 5 and the batcreek stone bit the dust...

So, looks like we're tied. 2 and 2.

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Nevo:

Probably none survived being melted. But who knows what some archaeologist will dig up next.

Perhaps you're right. But I think it's probably safe to say that writing on metal plates was never a widespread practice in antiquity. Yet in the Book of Mormon metal plates are everywhere. We find an ancient Israelite record (the Brass Plates), various Nephite records (the Small Plates of Nephi, the Large Plates of Nephi, and the Plates of Mormon), and even a Jaredite record (!) written on metal plates--all consisting of implausibly lengthy texts. It frankly strains credulity.

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Bitten. It should be, "how many countermo theories have bitten the dust so far?"

And, as a counterpoint, "how many apologetic rationalizations have bitten the dust so far?"

Good grief, how many times will it take to make you guys put away the strawmen? What mopologetic rationalizations have been admitted? Many! Now how many bogus countermopologetic "scientific" theories have been admitted? None! How does that build credibility? Why should you guys be believed when you can't admit any error no matter how egregious? Meanwhile, LDS scholars have made a cottage industry of cleaning up lame mopologetic arguments. It gets back to those missing literature reviews in mopologist "research"...but that is another thread.

Nevo: It frankly strains credulity.

It does, but no more so than believing in God which is the foundational requirement. That is beside the point, however. The point is that writing on metal was mocked and it has yet to be admitted that countermos have had to discard this yuk yuk point.

[edited to remove erroneous negative]

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All of them.

As soon as the Spirit confirms the truth of anything any counter argument bites the dust.

I disagree. There is no confirmation of one indivisable global or cosmic truth. That would be impossible. There can be many problematic areas while the gospel itself remains divine. Mormons disassemble bad theories all the time...it is to our advantage because it builds confidence and trust. Why haven't the countermos picked up on this basic principle in dealing with people?

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I disagree. There is no confirmation of one indivisable global or cosmic truth. That would be impossible. There can be many problematic areas while the gospel itself remains divine. Mormons disassemble bad theories all the time...it is to our advantage because it builds confidence and trust. Why haven't the countermos picked up on this basic principle in dealing with people?

I'll readily admit that there were ancient horses and "elephants" (if you want to call Mastodons that). The time period doesn't match, but who knows, maybe someone will find something more in line with Book of Mormon times. If that happens, I'll scratch the horse issue from the list of anachronisms. There has also been found a form of domesticated barley in a remote area of the US southwest. Again, if the time and place match, I'll take that one off the list.

As for metal plates and cement, those were common beliefs in Joseph Smith's time, as I showed several months ago.

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I disagree. There is no confirmation of one indivisable global or cosmic truth.

You means as in 42? That's not what I was trying to say. A truth, any truth, eg. The Book of Mormon is divine, confirmed to an individual means that for that individual it matter not what the Dude or anyone else may say about it, all counter argument bites the dust.

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