Countermopologists Pet Theories Against The Bom

[John Williams]

It is convenient in a very lazy way, I suppose. But it is no different than the howls about "the church" not presenting "the truth" about history. For some reason, they don't seem to think credibility cuts both ways and when they are shown up to be less than intelligent in their reasoning they are no longer convincing. It is because of lazy countermos like this that we hear stories about people becoming interested in the church through anti-Mormonism.

I think one of the most persistent translation related tales (and one that has not died yet) is the excited news that JS used a hat to translate and nobody but them knows it! It doesn't matter how many times official church publications are trotted out that prove otherwise, this one just isn't going to die.

I don't think I've ever accused the church of necessarily "hiding" anything, but I would agree that they have not felt obligated to share all the details. But then I don't expect them to. No organization intent on attracting followers would be expected to air out all the dirty laundry.

It's quite another thing to mock people for being troubled when they learn things that, really, should trouble anyone, whether or not you work it out eventually.

And for the record, I never heard about the hat translation method until I was in my late 20s. And I was in my mid-30s when I learned about polyandry. So, yeah, I was one lazy, unmotivated, spiritually uncurious person.

[cksalmon]

It is convenient in a very lazy way, I suppose. But it is no different than the howls about "the church" not presenting "the truth" about history. For some reason, they don't seem to think credibility cuts both ways and when they are shown up to be less than intelligent in their reasoning they are no longer convincing. It is because of lazy countermos like this that we hear stories about people becoming interested in the church through anti-Mormonism.

Now, that does sound like an interesting tale to be told. I haven't heard it as of yet, but I'd like to. Who's the "we?" And where can I read these stories?

Best.

CKS

[John Williams]

Now, that does sound like an interesting tale to be told. I haven't heard it as of yet, but I'd like to. Who's the "we?" And where can I read these stories?

Best.

CKS

I know someone who became interested in the church and baptized because of her contact with the Tanners.

[Chris Smith]

they are shown up to be less than intelligent in their reasoning

I can't help it if I have a below average IQ. Is it my fault if God made me an idiot? I certainly shouldn't be excluded from the celestial kingdom for it.

If anybody needs me, I'll be in the corner picking my nose with my dunce hat on.

[solomarineris]

What intrigues me is that the countermos will not take this stance when that next dig may be in their corner. LDS have always been open to new discovery...which puts us in league with educated people. I find the fundamentalist like mindset that all that all necessary knowledge is available for anyone claiming to be educated, enlightened or intellectual absolutely mystifying. Not to mention embarrassing.

Juliann,

Under this premises of what you are hoping, it is easier for you to win California Lottery.

You can wait for that "Next dig" or I can wait for that next "Billion Dollar" lottary win.

We'd have the same chances.

[solomarineris]

I can't help it if I have a below average IQ. Is it my fault if God made me an idiot? I certainly shouldn't be excluded from the celestial kingdom for it.

If anybody needs me, I'll be in the corner picking my nose with my dunce hat on.

Please do not flatter yourself Chris.....

I put couple crisp BF bills on behalf of your IQ, if all of readers would participate, I'd make a killing!!!!!!!!!!1

[cksalmon]

I know someone who became interested in the church and baptized because of her contact with the Tanners.

Hey John--

I'll obviously take your word for it. Because that's sort of my default position re: your posts. John says it, it's most likely true. I'd still like to know the source(s) Juliann is referring to.

Best.

Chris

[Cold Steel]

Nahom, anyone?

The thing is, since countermopologists know the Book of Mormon couldn't possibly be true, it goes against their very nature to accept anything as seriously bolstering it. Wild horses, being driven by hordes of elephants dragging signs reading "Welcome to Zarahemla" in Reformed Egyptian wouldn't cause them to blink! I do, however, have it on good authority that archeologists have failed to find even one countermopologist in the Western Hemisphere before Columbus. In fact, they weren't even cited before the early 1800s!

But y'know, the thing that gets me is, what if we're NOT right? What if the Hindus are right and that cows are holy? After eating as many hamburgers as we have, will we face udder destruction?

[John Williams]

Nahom, anyone?

The thing is, since countermopologists know the Book of Mormon couldn't possibly be true, it goes against their very nature to accept anything as seriously bolstering it. Wild horses, being driven by hordes of elephants dragging signs reading "Welcome to Zarahemla" in Reformed Egyptian wouldn't cause them to blink! I do, however, have it on good authority that archeologists have failed to find even one countermopologist in the Western Hemisphere before Columbus. In fact, they weren't even cited before the early 1800s!

But y'know, the thing that gets me is, what if we're NOT right? What if the Hindus are right and that cows are holy? After eating as many hamburgers as we have, will we face udder destruction?

Come on, Cold Steel. Several of us have conceded that NHM is an interesting parallel. This is quite the strawman y'all are building.

[MorningStar]

Nahom, anyone?

The thing is, since countermopologists know the Book of Mormon couldn't possibly be true, it goes against their very nature to accept anything as seriously bolstering it. Wild horses, being driven by hordes of elephants dragging signs reading "Welcome to Zarahemla" in Reformed Egyptian wouldn't cause them to blink! I do, however, have it on good authority that archeologists have failed to find even one countermopologist in the Western Hemisphere before Columbus. In fact, they weren't even cited before the early 1800s!

But y'know, the thing that gets me is, what if we're NOT right? What if the Hindus are right and that cows are holy? After eating as many hamburgers as we have, will we face udder destruction?

Udder.

[spinner]

Nahom, anyone?

The thing is, since countermopologists know the Book of Mormon couldn't possibly be true, it goes against their very nature to accept anything as seriously bolstering it. Wild horses, being driven by hordes of elephants dragging signs reading "Welcome to Zarahemla" in Reformed Egyptian wouldn't cause them to blink! I do, however, have it on good authority that archeologists have failed to find even one countermopologist in the Western Hemisphere before Columbus. In fact, they weren't even cited before the early 1800s!

But y'know, the thing that gets me is, what if we're NOT right? What if the Hindus are right and that cows are holy? After eating as many hamburgers as we have, will we face udder destruction?

Oooh, fun with graphics, can I try? Here's a visual representation of the caricature you and others are trying to create of critics of Mormonism being obstinately willfully blind to any evidence that may support the BofM:

The OP queried which anti-BofM arguments have bitten the dust. I don't think I'd ever heard anybody say that the absence of any city called "Nahom" as an anti-Mormon argument, but if you can show me otherwise I'll concede that that one has probably had the wind taken out of its sails. I'll also say that the cement houses one is probably off the table in my opinion (although admittedly I'd only heard that one here as an apologetic example of a criticism debunked and never actually read it in "anti" materials). I've never found "adieu" to be a persuasive argument in any case, so I'll concede it although I'd say that this is a concession that the argument was untenably weak to begin with more than saying it has been 'debunked'. Ditto "the land of Jerusalem" argument. And I suppose that the barley one (which I have seen in anti-materials) has been seriously eroded although I would not say 'totally debunked' until we have evidence of it being grown as a cereal crop in the area that the BofM supposedly took place.

IMO, that still leaves a lot of problematic areas. Of course I fully expect to be attacked as obstinate and willfully blind and employing double standards if I find an apologetic argument unconvincing (such as in the thread that inspired this thread, where critics, not convinced that the 1705 horse skeleton that turned out to be an 1850 horse in this thread was evidence for Nephite horses, were excoriated: http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php?showtopic=28263).) But smearing critics was, I suppose, the real point of this thread anyway.

[Scottie]

What about the coins Scottie? Can you give us a break down of why coins are mentioned in the BoM?

Juliann's post made it sound as if she believed coins in the BoM was another theory that had bitten the dust.

[Bsix]

What coins? To the best of my knowledge, there are no coins in the Book of Mormon.

Regards,

Six

[John Williams]

What coins? To the best of my knowledge, there are no coins in the Book of Mormon.

Regards,

Six

Nope, no coins, just pieces of precious metals with different values. "Now these are the names of the different pieces of their gold, and of their silver, according to their value." This sounds kind of like coins to me, but then the following verses go on to say that the values were according to measurements of grains and so forth. So it sounds like coins, but not necessarily so.

[poulsenll]

Nope, no coins, just pieces of precious metals with different values. "Now these are the names of the different pieces of their gold, and of their silver, according to their value." This sounds kind of like coins to me, but then the following verses go on to say that the values were according to measurements of grains and so forth. So it sounds like coins, but not necessarily so.

John

I agree that they were probably used like we use coins today as a medium of exchange. The difference is that there value was based on the intrinsic value of the metal which could be determined by weighing them and not on a value imprinted by the government. A similar use of coinage occurred in early U.S. history. Because of a shortage of low value coins, it was customary to cut the Spanish peso into eight equal pieces and use these to make change. From this came the concept "pieces of eight" and our use of the terms "two bits" and "four bits".

If any of these pieces of precious metal survived the spanish melting pots, it is unlikely that we would be able to recognise them as coins.

Larry P

[The Dude]

I agree that they were probably used like we use coins today as a medium of exchange. The difference is that there value was based on the intrinsic value of the metal which could be determined by weighing them and not on a value imprinted by the government. A similar use of coinage occurred in early U.S. history. Because of a shortage of low value coins, it was customary to cut the Spanish peso into eight equal pieces and use these to make change. From this came the concept "pieces of eight" and our use of the terms "two bits" and "four bits".

Interesting parallel. Has Dan Vogel said anything about this, in terms of Joseph Smith borrowing the idea from earlier US history?

[poulsenll]

Interesting parallel. Has Dan Vogel said anything about this, in terms of Joseph Smith borrowing the idea from earlier US history?

I dont think so. He tends to miss the obvious and propose theories that dont hold much water. This would have been an obvious one because it was such a common custom.

Humoroiusly enough, this led to the practice of shaving silver off the edges of the bits because nobody bothered weighing them and the cutting process was not precise.

Larry P

[The Dude]

I dont think so. He tends to miss the obvious and propose theories that dont hold much water. This would have been an obvious one because it was such a common custom.

I'm not following you. Do you mean common around the colonial period, or do you also mean common among ancient people who used precious metals as trade tokens?

You were told to get out of this thread, you are not going to get second chances when you come in to bash. Ignoring me again will get you a suspension. ~ Mods

[poulsenll]

I'm not following you. Do you mean common around the colonial period, or do you also mean common among ancient people who used precious metals as trade tokens?

I was thinking common in the colonial period. I have no idea how common it was in other ancient cultures. The only one I am aware of is the mite in Palestine which I recall was an official stamped coin. This would be an interesting research project for someone interested in numismatics.

Larry P

[poulsenll]

I was thinking common in the colonial period. I have no idea how common it was in other ancient cultures. The only one I am aware of is the mite in Palestine which I recall was an official stamped coin. This would be an interesting research project for someone interested in numismatics.

Larry P

Here is a quick find on google.

http://hammered_farthings.tripod.com/

When small change was required the mint would cut a silver penny, following the lines of the cross on the reverse of the coin, into halves or quarters to make "small change". R.J. Seaman points out, "the cutting of coins was done at the mint and it was illegal for the public to sever a coin... the penalties for mutilation of the king's money were too severe" for common people to cut coins themselves (SCMB May '67).

Seems the King was not very keen on this process because it led to abuse of the coinage.

But, it is evident that no matter how severe the penalties for clipping and counterfeiting were, clipped coinage was such a problem that "English kings needed to call in defective coinage three or four times a century and replace them with new coins of full weight. Thus there was a recoinage under Henry II in 1180, under John in 1205, and under Henry III in 1247" (M. Mate, BNJ '72).

Larry P

[grego]

However, the description of them as "different pieces of their gold, and of their silver, according to their value" sounds a lot like coins.

John W,

Pick any decent Chinese movie about ancient times, and you'll likely see silver pieces (not coins, but casted lumps) as money, based literally on weight. So, Book of Mormon terms are not only plausible, but actually existed in another culture in precisely that way.

[John Williams]

John W,

Pick any decent Chinese movie about ancient times, and you'll likely see silver pieces (not coins, but casted lumps) as money, based literally on weight. So, BoM terms are not only plausible, but actually existed in another culture in precisely that way.

I don't know why you think I find any of this implausible. I specifically agreed with Juliann that this was pretty much a nonstarter. I know. I'm a "countermo" so I have to support all critical arguments, no matter their merit.

[grego]

Oh come on, John W. Is it that hard to just take something for what it's worth?

[John Williams]

Oh come on, John W. Is it that hard to just take something for what it's worth?

Yes, it is.

[Muc'ul Ajwalil]

If only these poor fools knew what the countermos know:

From: The Theoretical Landscape and the Methodological Development of Archaeology in Latin America. Contributors: Gustavo G. Politis - author. Journal Title: American Antiquity. Volume: 68. Issue: 2, 2003. pg. 245

The second quote is what is going to continue to give the antis heartburn as news reports pick up the more unusual findings...and we seem to have such an article posted on a regular basis now.

Percent of Mayan ruins excavated: Five.

The antis have a lot of perverted faith if they are not willing to consider the 95 percent that hasn't been uncovered...

And the five pretty much speaks about by itself as well as the behavorial patterns of the Maya, Quiche, Tsotsil, Tseltal, etc...