Between Kingdoms

[moreholinessgiveme]

What happens to righteous husband and wife whom were not able to be sealed before mortal death,

then were sealed by children later?

And of course all the other scenarios of persons whom were not baptised, endowed, e.t.c?

Perhaps one important thing that can help all of us during this discussion is to remember WHO is judging us.

2 Ne. 9: 41

O then, my beloved brethren, come unto the Lord, the Holy One. Remember that his paths are righteous. Behold, the way for man is narrow, but it lieth in a straight course before him, and the keeper of the gate is the Holy One of Israel; and he employeth no servant there; and there is none other way save it be by the gate; for he cannot be deceived, for the Lord God is his name.

"he cannot be deceived"

I think the more we come to understand the depth of the Atonement -- the more we understand why there will be no progression between Kingdoms. He is qualified to judge us. He is able to look forward through the eternities and KNOW what Kingdom we'll be happiest in.

Why is that so hard for people to understand?

"and the keeper of the gate is the Holy One of Israel; and he employeth no servant there"

Our exaltation is individual. One on one. Between myself and the Lord.

I don't think people understand how needed -- how significant it is -- to have the personal relationship with Jesus Christ. I don't think people understand how literal it is.

He will judge a righteous judgement. By that point, when the judgement is rendered, we will have exhausted all of our chances ALREADY. Sorry, no more chances. In other words, we cannot say "I will repent, I will return to my God now."

Alma 34: 34

34 Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.

This is the Lord talking. The same Lord that will judge us. He is telling us "there won't be any more chances."

There really need not be any cause for confusion among those of us who are LDS as to what we believe.

[katherine the great]

The Correlation Dept has a list of guidelines that Church curriculum must abide by, and one of those guidelines states that there should be no definitive statements made regarding the question of progression between kingdoms (either pro or con).

k This is a surprise! I remember being taught very firmly that there would be no progression between kingdoms.

[jadams_4242]

Perhaps one important thing that can help all of us during this discussion is to remember WHO is judging us.

2 Ne. 9: 41

O then, my beloved brethren, come unto the Lord, the Holy One. Remember that his paths are righteous. Behold, the way for man is narrow, but it lieth in a straight course before him, and the keeper of the gate is the Holy One of Israel; and he employeth no servant there; and there is none other way save it be by the gate; for he cannot be deceived, for the Lord God is his name.

"he cannot be deceived"

I think the more we come to understand the depth of the Atonement -- the more we understand why there will be no progression between Kingdoms. He is qualified to judge us. He is able to look forward through the eternities and KNOW what Kingdom we'll be happiest in.

Why is that so hard for people to understand?

"and the keeper of the gate is the Holy One of Israel; and he employeth no servant there"

Our exaltation is individual. One on one. Between myself and the Lord.

I don't think people understand how needed -- how significant it is -- to have the personal relationship with Jesus Christ. I don't think people understand how literal it is.

He will judge a righteous judgement. By that point, when the judgement is rendered, we will have exhausted all of our chances ALREADY. Sorry, no more chances. In other words, we cannot say "I will repent, I will return to my God now."

Alma 34: 34

34 Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.

This is the Lord talking. The same Lord that will judge us. He is telling us "there won't be any more chances."

There really need not be any cause for confusion among those of us who are LDS as to what we believe.

And all you quote is in regards to sin and repentance, I would still ask my previous question to you?

Are all the dead that were never able to hear the gospel or be baptized or sealed, are they

not moving on after and if they accept such ordinances done for them? They are not in a

state because of sin they are in a state because of not having the time or opportunity hear on earth.

So there will not be forgivness involved, its a matter of doing.

[Lachoneus]

I remember being taught very firmly that there would be no progression between kingdoms.

You were taught McConkie Doctrine, Heresy #5. See here. The Church officially teaches something a little different.

[cinepro]

Yes, there will be progression between the kingdoms. There has to be.

If God's purpose is to "bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man", what purpose would limiting progression serve from an eternal perspective?

Ten billion years from now, even if there is just one single soul in the Telestial Kingdom who wishes to have faith, repent, make covenants, and be obedient, what purpose would it serve to keep him there?

As we learn in D&C 19, sometimes we are told things from an earthly, linguistically twisted perspective because it is a useful motivation technique for God, not because it is the most accurate view of the eternal reality.

As has been noted in this thread, it might take some of the urgency out of our motivation to spread the good word here on Earth if we knew people could come around anytime they needed in the heavenly future. Thus, progression between the kingdoms isn't a convenient teaching if you want people to get out and knock on doors and toss their 10% into the metaphorical pie tin. But that doesn't make it false.

[kamenraider]

Hiram [sic] said Aug 1st - 43

Those of the Terrestrial Glory either advance to the Celestial or recede to the Telestial else the moon could not be a type 'It waxes & wanes'

--Hyrum Smith as quoted in Franklin D. Richards' "Words of the Prophets" diary, p.24.

The Savior tells us that the terrestrial glory, or kingdom, is likened unto the glory of the moon, which is not of the brightness of the sun, neither of the smallness nor dimness of the stars. But those others who have no part in marrying or giving of marriage in the last resurrection, they become as stars, and even differ from each other in glory; but those in the terrestrial kingdom are those who will come forth at the time when Enoch comes back, when the Savior comes again to dwell upon the earth; when Father Abraham will be there with the Urim and Thummim to look after every son and daughter of his race; to make known all things that are needed to be known, and with them enter into their promised inheritance. Thus the people of God will go forward. They will go forward, like unto the new moon, increasing in knowledge and brightness and glory, until they come to a fullness of celestial glory. During the Millennium multitudes of people who have not heard the Gospel will hear and receive it and go forward into this glory, while those who will not go forward to a fullness will go back to that lesser glory which is likened unto the stars of heaven, for as the Prophet Isaiah says, "There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days, for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed."

--Franklin D. Richards, JD 25:236.

[jadams_4242]

Yes, there will be progression between the kingdoms. There has to be.

If God's purpose is to "bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man", what purpose would limiting progression serve from an eternal perspective?

Ten billion years from now, even if there is just one single soul in the Telestial Kingdom who wishes to have faith, repent, make covenants, and be obedient, what purpose would it serve to keep him there?

As we learn in D&C 19, sometimes we are told things from an earthly, linguistically twisted perspective because it is a useful motivation technique for God, not because it is the most accurate view of the eternal reality.

As has been noted in this thread, it might take some of the urgency out of our motivation to spread the good word here on Earth if we knew people could come around anytime they needed in the heavenly future. Thus, progression between the kingdoms isn't a convenient teaching if you want people to get out and knock on doors and toss their 10% into the metaphorical pie tin. But that doesn't make it false.

As is stated in the Holy Bible....Thou shalt pay the "uttermost farthling" in other words--

its possible but you wont like it!

[Lachoneus]

Hiram [sic] said Aug 1st - 43

Those of the Terrestrial Glory either advance to the Celestial or recede to the Telestial else the moon could not be a type 'It waxes & wanes'

--Hyrum Smith as quoted in Franklin D. Richards' "Words of the Prophets" diary, p.24.

This is the only known contemporary explanation for the Terrestrial Kingdom's symbol during Joseph Smith's lifetime. Most contemporary Mormons reject the possibility of advancement between kingdoms, although this is not been adopted as an official doctrine of the Church.

Joseph L. Anderson on behalf of the First Presidency to Joe J. Christiansen, Dec. 17, 1965, LDS Church Archives

[Still_Small_Voice]

As someone stated before on this subject: There will not progression between kingdoms because we choose our kingdom at judgment. If we desire to live a telestial law that is where we will choose to dwell.

Also, something many are not taking into account is the spirit world. It is a place of preparation for judgment. Thus people who rejected truth and chose to live evil lives suffer for their own sins. The scriptures teach that those who receive not the gospel in this life and afterwards receive it may inherit the terrestrial kingdom (Doctrine and Covenants 76:73-74).

Those who live in the spirit world do so for many more years than they lived in mortal probation. When Judgment Day arrives we will all be ready for it and receive the glory for which we have prepared ourselves.

I will also state that I would not risk my eternal salvation on a second chance theory. An attitude of "I will just get it right in the next life" is the broad road that leads away from eternal life. We must work the works of the Lord while it is day.

". . . Enter ye in at the strait gate; for strait is the gate, and narrow is the way that leads to life, and few there be that find it; but wide is the gate, and broad the way which leads to death, and many there be that travel therein, until the night cometh, wherein no man can work." III Nephi 27:33

[kamenraider]

...President Young thought none would inherit this Earth when it became celestial & translated into the presence of God but those who would be Crowned as Gods & able to endure the fulness of the Presence of God ex[cept?] they might permitted to take with them some servants for whom they would be held responsible. All others would have to inherit another kindom even that kingdom agreeing with the law which they had kept. Yet He thought they would eventually have the privilege of proveing themselves worthy & advanceing to a Celestial kingdom but it would be a slow progress.

--Wilford Woodruff's Journal August 5, 1855 (Waiting for World's End pg. 167).

[Gillebre]

You have to take note that if someone is in the Celestial Kingdom, it's because they CHOSE not to repent for their sins, nor to accept the sacrifice of Jesus Christ's atonement.

They who don't make it to Celestial glory do so of their own accord, of their own free will and decision.

Any who had no chance to accept the truth here, will be granted the opportunity to do so.

While I do feel sadness at the thought of all who will not make it back to Heavenly Father's arms, I also realize that they didn't make it because because they chose not to. They chose not to go all the way, because if we decided to do give it our everything, we *will* make it back.

However, that decision to give it our everything is lifelong, and very difficult at many points in our mortal probation.

The point is that those who don't make it, didn't want to.

Those who inherit Telestial or Terrestrial glory will attain such because that is the eternal life that they prepared and lived to receive, in my opinion. When judgment is passed, they have no recourse - it is sad, yes, but we cannot force them to accept anything or repent of their sins.

That is the one sad truth I have come to realize: they who don't make it, do so by their own desire to be separate from Him. I am sad at times as I comprehend the totality of that truth, but I take comfort to know that even the numberless many who will receive of the Telestial will be happier than any mortal could ever comprehend. Trust Him, and trust that His judgments will be fair and that His wisdom will abide.

The salvation of others is out of our hands. We can "present" them with the truth, try to help them learn it, or realize the validity of it as they seek out the Holy Ghost's witness, but ultimately salvation is attained by the evidence we present to Heavenly Father that we have succeeded as to the reasons He sent us. Their salvation and eternal state of being depends on what choices they make, and if they made them now, the same living soul that made them in mortality will continue into post-mortality.

Besides, those in higher kingdoms can and will minister to those in lower ones (I believe that includes visits, etc... ), as far as I understand it.

I believe there will not be progression inter-kingdoms as much as intra-kingdom. I am, however, open to being wrong if His plan is as infinitely higher than my own mortal mind as I think it is, many times.

[BCSpace]

I remember being taught very firmly that there would be no progression between kingdoms.

You were taught McConkie Doctrine, Heresy #5. See here. The Church officially teaches something a little different.

BYU addresses are not official doctrine and BRM is patently wrong about at least one of them. However, with heresy #5, he quotes some good scripture that seem explicitly against (I can find no way out as of yet) the concept of progressing between or even within kingdoms....

"And they shall be servants of the Most High, but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end" (D&C 76:112).

Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven; which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.

For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all etemity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever. [D&C 132:16-17]

[BCSpace]

Ten billion years from now, even if there is just one single soul in the Telestial Kingdom who wishes to have faith, repent, make covenants, and be obedient, what purpose would it serve to keep him there?

A footstool? Someone to boss around?

[Mike Reed]

NEAL A. MAXWELL

COMMISSIONER

August 17, 1970

Brother Reed C. Durham, Jr.

Institue of Religion

274 University Street

Salt Lake City, Utah 84102

Dear Reed:

I tried to reach you by phone, but was not able to prior to your leaving for a well deserved vacation.

In reading the copies of the letters sent by the First Presidency with regard to progression from one kingdom to another, I believe there may be a typographical error in the one dated June 17, 1970. Doctrine and Covenants 76:112 clearly refers to those who inherit the telestial, not Celestial, glory. I checked this with Joseph Anderson and that is a typographical error.

Insofar as your question probably goes beyond that, my own reaction is fairly simple; the earlier communications of the Presidency indicate that some of the brethren have held post-resurrection progress a possibility, while others have taken an opposite view, and that the newly-cited reference (Doctrine and Covenants 76:112) simply indicates what must be one boundary line, namely, that those who inherit the telestial glory cannot come "worlds without end" where God and Christ dwell. In other words, we know only so much about this matter beyond which anything is speculative, but that verse sounds pretty controling to me with regard to telestial beings.

I realize you and I are comfortable holding this kind of matter in abeyance until the Lord gives us more information, whereas some of our youth are anxious to nail things down in a definitive way that is simply not possible.

I am afraid what I have said is not particularly helpful to you, but I did want to get back to you as soon as possible. I appreciate the service you are rendering. Give my love to your colleagues.

Kindest personal regards,

/s/ Neal A. Maxwell

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December 17, 1965

Mr. Joe J. Christensen, Director

Institute of Religion

University of Utah

Salt Lake City, Utah 84112

Dear Brother Christensen:

Reference is made to your letter of December 7th in which you inquire what the teaching of the Church is relative to the possibility of progression from one particular glory to another after the resurrection.

The brethren direct me to say that the Church has never announced a definite doctrine upon this point, though some have held the view that it was possible in the course of progression to advance from one glory to another, invoking the principle of eternal progression; others have taken an opposite view. As indicated, however, the Church has never announced a definite doctrine on this point.

Sincerely your brother,

/s/ Joseph L. Anderson

Secretary to the First Presidency

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Feb. 28, 1968

Dear Brother

In answer to your inquiry in letter of Feb. 15, 1968 addressed to President David O. McKay I am directed to tell you that the Church has never announced a definite doctrine on the point of progression from one kingdom to another after the resurrection. Some of the brethren have held the view that it was possible in the course of progression to advance from one glory to another, invoking the principle of eternal progression; others of the brethren have taken an opposite view. But, as stated, the Church has never announced a definite doctrine on this point.

Sincerely yours,

Joseph Anderson

Secretary to the First Pres.

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â??The question of advancement within the great divisions of glory-celestial, terrestrial, and telestial; as also the question of advancement from one sphere of glory to another, remains to be considered. In the revelation from which we have summarized what has been written here (D&C 76), in respect to the different degrees of glory, it is said that those of the terrestrial glory will be ministered unto by those of the celestial; and those of the telestial will be ministered unto by those of the terrestrial- that is, those of the higher glory minister to those of a lesser order of glory. We can conceive of no reason for all this administration of the higher to the lower, unless it be for the purpose of advancing our Fatherâ??s children along the lines of eternal progression. Whether or not in the great future, full of so many possibilities now hidden from us, they of the lesser glories after education and advancement within those spheres may at last emerge from them and make their way to the higher degrees of glory until at last they attain to the highest, is not revealed in the revelations of God, and any statement made on the subject must partake more or less of the nature of conjecture. But if it be granted that such a thing is possible, they who at the first entered into the celestial glory- having before them the privilege also of eternal progress- have been moving onward, so that the relative distance between them and those who have fought their way up from the lesser glories, may be as great when the latter have come into the degrees of celestial glory in which the righteous at first stood, as it was at the commencement; and thus between them is an impassible gulf which time cannot destroy. Thus: those whose faith and works are such only as to entitle them to inherit a telestial glory, may arrive at last where those whose works in this life were such as to entitle them to entrance into the celestial kingdom- they may arrive were these were, but never where they are. But if it be granted that the chief fact about Intelligences is that they have power to add fact to fact and thus build up knowledge, and through knowledge have wisdom, and thus make progress; and if to such intelligences there is granted eternal life-immortality for in the passing of even a few thousand of millions of years, even if progress be very slow- there will come a time when these intelligences- men and women of even the telestial glory- may become very acceptable characters, and very important personages.â? B.H. Roberts, Outlines of Ecclesiastical History (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 1979): 416-417.

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â??It is reasonable to believe, in the absence of direct revelation by which alone absolute knowledge of the matter could be acquired, that, in accordance with Godâ??s plan of eternal progression, advancement from grade to grade within any kingdom, and from kingdom to kingdom, will be provided for. But if the recipients of a lower glory be enabled to advance, surely the intelligences of higher rank will not be stopped in their progress; and thus we may conclude, that degrees and grades will ever characterize the Kingdom of our God. Eternity is progressive; perfection is relative; the essential feature of Godâ??s living purpose is its associated power of eternal increase.â? James E. Talmage, â??Lecture XII, Religious Liberty and Toleration,â? pp. 420-421 as cited in The Essential James E. Talmage, ed. James P. Harris (Salt Lake City: Signature Books, 1997): 69.

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The Standard Works offer uncertain insight as to whether or not eternal progression will be possible as it is applied to passage from one degree of glory to another. While Doctrine and Covenants 76:112 does seem to suggest that for those of the telestial kingdom, at least, eventual communion with the Father and the Son will not be possible, "worlds without end," such a conclusion may be challenged. For example, there is no explicit provision that inhabitants of the telestial kingdom will not, at some point, have access to the blessings of either the terrestrial or even some part of the celestial kingdoms. Additionally, one of Joseph Smith's earliest revelations, D & C 19 received March 1830, one month before the formal organization of the Church clearly redefines the terms "endless" and "eternal." They are no longer descriptions of time, but rather are synonyms for the noun "God." Taker in conjunction with Joseph's revision of Genesis, the Father declares his work and glory to be that of bringing to pass the immortality and eternal (i.e God's) life of man" (Moses 1:39). Thus, the indication is that the Father's Plan might extend to all his children the distinct possibility of eventually attaining the life he has come to enjoy.

Whatever the outcome, the Church officially embraces no position as to progression from one kingdom of glory to another. In 1952 and, again, in 1965, the First Presidency authorized their secretary to respond to such a question in virtually identical language: "The Brethren direct me to say that the Church has never announced a definite doctrine upon this point. Some of the Brethren have held the view that it was possible in the course of progression to advance from one glory to another, invoking the principle of eternal progression; others of the Brethren have taken the opposite view. But as stated, the Church has never announced a definite doctrine on this point."

That differences of opinion exist among several of the general authorities on this topic is evident from a cursory overview of their statements. Brigham Young held, for example, that "none would inherit this Earth when it became celestial and translated into the presence of God but those who would be crowned as Gods . . . all others would have to inherit another kingdom . . .[yet] they would eventually have the privilege of proving themselves worthy and advancing to a celestial kingdom but it would be a slow process" (Wilford Woodruff Journal, 5 August 1855.) Wilford Woodruff believed, "If there was a point where man in his progression could not proceed any further, the very idea would throw a gloom over every intelligent creature" (Journal of Discourses, 6:120).

In late 1910, President Joseph F. Smith apparently sanctioned the view that at least some form of progression would be possible: "[O]nce a person enters these glories there will be eternal progress in the line of each of these particular glories, but . . . the privilege of passing from one to another (though this may be possible for especially gifted and faithful characters) is not provided for" Improvement Era 14) [November 1910]:87, emphasis added). Apostle Melvin J. Ballard, however, disagreed. "Those whose lives have entitled them to terrestrial glory," he maintained, "can never gain celestial glory. One who gains possession of the lowest degree of the telestial glory may ultimately arise to the highest degree of that glory, but no provision has been made for promotion from one glory to another" ("Three Degrees of Glory," discourse delivered in the Ogden Tabernacle, 22 September 1922). Elder Ballard's feelings were later shared and echoed by Elders Joseph Fielding Smith and Bruce R. McConkie. "It has been asked if it is possible for one who inherits the telestial glory to advance in time to the celestial glory?" Elder Smith posited. "The answer to this question," he continued, "is, No!" (Doctrines of Salvation II:31, emphasis in original). Elder McConkie forcefully remarked, "There are those who say that there is progression from one kingdom to another in the eternal world. Or if not that, lower kingdoms eventually progress to where higher kingdoms once were. This is worse than false. It is an evil and pernicious doctrine" ("Seven Deadly Heresies", 1 June 1980, unedited).

Yet these are not the only views espoused by ranking Church authorities. Reference to the First Presidency's disclaimers has already been made. In early 1960, President J. Reuben Clerk, Jr., admitted, "I am not a strict constructionalist, believing that we seal our eternal progress by what we do here. It is my belief that God will save all of His children that he can; and while, if we live unrighteously here, we shall not go to the other side in the same status, so to speak, as those who lived righteously; nevertheless, the unrighteous will have their chance, and in the eons of the eternities that are to follow, they, too, may climb to the destinies to which they who are righteous and serve God, have climbed to those eternities that are to come" (Church News, week ending 23 April 1960, p. 3).

The Church's determined reluctancy to endorse either view is evidenced by the changes in wording that appeared in successive editions of James E. Talmage's The Articles of Faith. Originally, Talmage had written,

It is reasonable to believe, in the absence of direct revelation by which alone absolute knowledge of the matter could be acquired, that in accordance with God's plan of eternal progression, advancement from grade to grade within any kingdom, and from kingdom to kingdom, will be provided for. But if the recipients of a lower glory be enabled to advance, surely the intelligences of higher rank will not be stopped in their progress; and thus we may conclude, that degrees and grades will ever characterize the kingdoms of our God. Eternity is progressive; perfection is relative; the essential feature of God's living purpose is its associated power of eternal increase. (1899 edition, pps. 420-421).

In 1917, the words "within any kingdom, and from kingdom to kingdom," were replaced by the words "within each of the three specified kingdoms." Finally, in 1924, this paragraph was changed even further. The words "from grade to grade" and "But if the recipients of a lower glory be enabled to advance, surely the intelligences of higher rank shall not be stopped in their progress; and" were entirely deleted. In place of the second set the following was added: "though as to possible progress from one kingdom to another the scriptures make no positive affirmation. Eternal advancement along different lines is conceivable." The most recent edition of The Articles of Faith reads identically to the 1924 edition. No mention of the changes incorporated into the text, however, is offered.

Neither explicitly treated in the Standard Works nor discussed by the First Presidency, except to disavow any position as being that accepted by the Church, the notion of progression among the kingdoms is an open question. Opinions expressed, either in favor of or against, should no more be used to determine orthodoxy than does the colors of one's clothes.

(Notes and Comments, Dialogue 15:1 Spring 1982.)

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"From what was said that evening I gather that the Mormons believe in three heavens, termed Tuestial [sic], Terrestrial, Celestial; that after death the spirit enters the lowest, and constantly progresses in spiritual knowledge until safely landed in the Celestial; and all that die without the opportunity of hearing or receiving the faith of the Latter Day Saints are consigned to purgatory to remain forever, or until their descendants or friends are baptized for them. Thus these poor Mormons are constantly being baptized as a duty to release their ancestors or friends from the tortures of purgatory." Charlotte Haven, dated March 26, 1843.

[bomac10000]

Thanks for all you help. I will rely on Brother Talmadge as the definitive answer to the question. it seems reasonable to me that in the eternties there would be additional progression. I do not know that that makes the mortal probation any less important, it seems to be an entirely different proposition. Brigham Young proclaimes that in Heaven he would learn "a thousand times more, a thousand times faster" than he did while on earth. That sounds like a type of progression, albeit, different than the type of progression we may experience here. In any case, what I needed for my friend Alan is to create a reasonable doubt as to his claim of a predestined stoppage to his own progress, and you have supplied it!

Peace

Bob

[Brade]

If you're looking for more resources scroll down in this thread and you'll find a compilation of the quotes encompassing the various views on the issue. Might be helpful.