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Between Kingdoms


bomac10000

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Hi Folks!

I am having an interesting discussion with a friend at work concerning kingdoms of glory. My question is, is there a definitive teaching concerning movement between kingdoms of glory after the final judgement? There is the one DC section concerning the description of the kingdoms and their attributes, it also states that unless a couple is sealed in the temple that they do not progress further. I am asking if, in the eternities it is possible to progress between kingdoms due to continued growth.

Thanks!

Bob

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My question is, is there a definitive teaching concerning movement between kingdoms of glory after the final judgement?

No.

I'd like to think that we can, but I don't think we will be able to (else why worry about where we end up initially if we can get out of it?).

Best case scenario IMHO: It may be possible to progress in glory from that which was originally assigned to you, but those with greater glory are progressing at a faster rate so you will always be left behind. In addition, you will never become a God from a lower glory because such progression is asymptotic.

Why? I think of grace in terms of entropy. After being saved into a degree of glory, there is no more available energy to carry you higher. Your works, faith, and obedience, etc. determines the efficiency of your use of the same grace that is applied to everyone.

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I remember reading once that Talmage said in an early version of Articles of Faith that progression between kingdoms would be provided for but it was taken out of later versions. Does anyone know about that?

I hope that it is somehow possible because try as I have I feel like I will be doing good to just make the telestial world. But if not I understand from D&C 76 that the glory of the telestial surpasses all understanding so maybe eternity there wont be so bad. :P

WMashes

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I remember reading once that Talmage said in an early version of Articles of Faith that progression between kingdoms would be provided for but it was taken out of later versions. Does anyone know about that?

Talmage states in the first edition (1899) of Articles of Faith that, in the absence of revelation, it is reasonable to believe that advancement from one kingdom to another kingdom is possible.

25. It is reasonable to believe, in the absence of direct [p.421] revelation by which alone absolute knowledge of the matter could be acquired, that, in accordance with God's plan of eternal progression, advancement from grade to grade within any kingdom, and from kingdom to kingdom, will be provided for. But if the recipients of a lower glory be enabled to advance, surely the intelligences of higher rank will not be stopped in their progress; and thus we may conclude, that degrees and grades will ever characterize the kingdoms of our God. Eternity is progressive; perfection is relative; the essential feature of God's living purpose is its associated power of eternal increase.

In later editions this language was changed. For example, the 42nd edition says:

It is reasonable to believe, in the absence of direct revelation by which alone absolute knowledge of the matter could be acquired, that, in accordance with God's plan of eternal progression, advancement within each of the three specified kingdoms will be provided for; though as to possible progress from one kingdom to another the scriptures make no positive affirmation. Eternal advancement along different lines is conceivable. We may conclude that degrees and grades will ever characterize the kingdoms of our God. Eternity is progressive; perfection is relative; the essential feature of God's living purpose is its associated power of eternal increase.
(James E. Talmage, Articles of Faith 370 (1981))
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Hi Folks!

I am having an interesting discussion with a friend at work concerning kingdoms of glory. My question is, is there a definitive teaching concerning movement between kingdoms of glory after the final judgement? There is the one DC section concerning the description of the kingdoms and their attributes, it also states that unless a couple is sealed in the temple that they do not progress further. I am asking if, in the eternities it is possible to progress between kingdoms due to continued growth.

Thanks!

Bob

No...see scripture at the bottom of my "Post".

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(James E. Talmage, Articles of Faith 370 (1981))

JET says in a doctrinal work that 'it is reasonable to believe'. Hence the doctrine is that it is okay to believe if you want, but no official doctrine is being pronounced upon the subject of progression in those statements.

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The Correlation Dept has a list of guidelines that Church curriculum must abide by, and one of those guidelines states that there should be no definitive statements made regarding the question of progression between kingdoms (either pro or con).

Personally, I have to believe that there is progression between kingdoms. Not allowing it would seem to do violence to mercy, if not justice.

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Hi Folks!

I am having an interesting discussion with a friend at work concerning kingdoms of glory. My question is, is there a definitive teaching concerning movement between kingdoms of glory after the final judgement? There is the one DC section concerning the description of the kingdoms and their attributes, it also states that unless a couple is sealed in the temple that they do not progress further. I am asking if, in the eternities it is possible to progress between kingdoms due to continued growth.

Thanks!

Bob

No, because that would mean this "mortal probation" didn't matter much.

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Or, it would mean that it didn't matter in quite the same way as you thought it did. Quite possible, I'm sure.

HiJolly

I quite agree. But if we knew for sure that there is progression between kingdoms, the incentive to perform better in this life would be much less. However, I think that mercy dictates that such progression is possible. But then again, I want to get closer to the divine not because of some hypothetical blessings in the afterlife but because I feel it is advantageous to me right this minute. So no real reason to slack off. Telling people they might end up in Hitler's company forever if they don't shape up is cruel though, IMHO.

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No, because that would mean this "mortal probation" didn't matter much.

Since no one has given a good description of any of the kingdoms except in the most general sense we have no idea. It is possible (even probable) that most of the arguments we have about Celestial Polygamy, the nature of the Kingdoms, etc. make no sense there. Brigham Young suggested that the Three Degrees of Glory we know of are only three among many, many more. Let's not pretend to more knowledge than we have.

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bomac10000:

Hi, and welcome to the Glass Menagerie.

If Eternal Progression was the controlling factor. Then it would still be impossible for advancement between Kingdoms for the simple expedience that those in the other Kingdoms are also Eternally Progressing. There will NEVER be a time when they will be equal.

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bomac10000:

Hi, and welcome to the Glass Menagerie.

If Eternal Progression was the controlling factor. Then it would still be impossible for advancement between Kingdoms for the simple expedience that those in the other Kingdoms are also Eternally Progressing. There will NEVER be a time when they will be equal.

Which doesn't mean they can't communicate with each other. This is all starting to sound very similar to the the eightfold middle path somehow. Even if a bodhisattva has reached enlightenment, they can still remain on Earth and help other people attain enlightenment. Richard Bach with his Illusions and Jonathan Livingston the Seagull also comes to mind. It's not like it's a race of some kind.

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Zoidberg:

I happily believe that there will be communication. Maybe those in the "higher" Kingdoms can visit the lower ones. But like the inevitable visit to Grandmas' house, after a nice visit, you invariably return home.

Your own house vs. Grandma's house is such a limiting concept. Why should it matter? You can move into Grandma's house yourself if you so desire to take care of her or you can help your Grandma move to your own house.

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I don't think there are any definitive answers on this. I think we are encouraged to believe that there is no progression, because that keeps us motivated.

My personal belief is that there will be movement, although in reality I think very few will move upwards and onwards. We are who we are, and while we can change, few do.

Personally I also think we are all going to be very surprised when get through the veil and judgment. We know VERY little about the Kingdoms and rewards, very very little. Our assumptions and those of our forefathers could be way off base and we have no idea.

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I have wondered that if, by some up sized biggie order of pure grace, I was to be allowed to enter the Celestial kingdom, in that world of a fullness of joy, could my joy ever really be full while some of my loved ones were in the telestial kingdom longing to progress and there being no possibility of that? Are we really in this all together or not? I suppose I could have a fullness of joy if my loved one in the TK had no desire to progress but it just seems to me if one has desire to progress and no hope of progression he would be in the worst hell I can imagine. I wonder if the kingdom we inherit is in reality the one we desire. Could a loving God really leave His child hungering and thirsting for more righteousness and not allow him to be filled with all that is Holy?

WMashes

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I have wondered that if, by some up sized biggie order of pure grace, I was to be allowed to enter the Celestial kingdom, in that world of a fullness of joy, could my joy ever really be full while some of my loved ones were in the telestial kingdom longing to progress and there being no possibility of that? Are we really in this all together or not? I suppose I could have a fullness of joy if my loved one in the TK had no desire to progress but it just seems to me if one has desire to progress and no hope of progression he would be in the worst hell I can imagine. I wonder if the kingdom we inherit is in reality the one we desire. Could a loving God really leave His child hungering and thirsting for more righteousness and not allow him to be filled with all that is Holy?

WMashes

WMashes:

Hello, my friend. How have you been?

It is not a matter of how much He loves us, but how much we loved Him back. He'd save us all if He could...but He Himself said He cannot save us in our sins. We must repent. Some of us won't choose to do that. Eventually you run out of chances to do so.

He said, if ye love me, keep my commandments.

Why would those who chose not to keep His commandments be worthy of the same blessings some of us will receive through our obedience and enduring to the end?

Why call this earth life a test, only to find out - hey, we were never in any danger -- we've got the rest of eternity to progress to the Celestial Kingdom!

It just does not make sense that we can progress between kingdoms.

To be able to do so makes this "mortal probation" pretty pointless, in my eyes.

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No.

I'd like to think that we can, but I don't think we will be able to (else why worry about where we end up initially if we can get out of it?).

Best case scenario IMHO: It may be possible to progress in glory from that which was originally assigned to you, but those with greater glory are progressing at a faster rate so you will always be left behind. In addition, you will never become a God from a lower glory because such progression is asymptotic.

Why? I think of grace in terms of entropy. After being saved into a degree of glory, there is no more available energy to carry you higher. Your works, faith, and obedience, etc. determines the efficiency of your use of the same grace that is applied to everyone.

What happens to righteous husband and wife whom were not able to be sealed before mortal death,

then were sealed by children later?

And of course all the other scenarios of persons whom were not baptised, endowed, e.t.c?

:P

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I have wondered that if, by some up sized biggie order of pure grace, I was to be allowed to enter the Celestial kingdom, in that world of a fullness of joy, could my joy ever really be full while some of my loved ones were in the telestial kingdom longing to progress and there being no possibility of that? Are we really in this all together or not? I suppose I could have a fullness of joy if my loved one in the TK had no desire to progress but it just seems to me if one has desire to progress and no hope of progression he would be in the worst hell I can imagine. I wonder if the kingdom we inherit is in reality the one we desire. Could a loving God really leave His child hungering and thirsting for more righteousness and not allow him to be filled with all that is Holy?

WMashes

I think what causes all this agonizing over whether or not there is progression between Kingdoms is this arbitrary hierarchy (it is better to be in the CK than in the Terrestrial or Telestial Kingdom). What if one is not worse than the other? What if they are just different? So we can progress within each kingdom. It is generally accepted that you can progress eternally in the CK (eternal increase etc.); so it's not like there is ever a point when the Universe(s) run(s) out of the spirit element and you reach a point from which you can no longer progress. Why assume that progression is finite in either the Terrestrial or Telestial Kingdom? Why assume that there is that ceiling you can reach and that the kingdoms are somehow stacked up on top of each other? What if there is equal eternal progression for all, but just in different directions? Yes, the way WMAshes is describing it would be hell. having no hope is hell. There could be progression from one Kingdom to the other (and it wouldn't be a race as the ones ahead could dedicate themselves to making those behind walk faster, even if it stalls the progress of those who are ahead), or there could be eternal progression in different directions in different kingdoms, and everyone's progress would be suited to what one desires for oneself, and there would be no regrets.

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