Deborah Posted August 28, 2007 Posted August 28, 2007 Yikes! Talk about knocking your head against a brick wall. But to the topic at hand, it amazes me that those who follow every bigoted anti-Mormon lie cannot see the beam in their own eyes when it comes to "blind followers."
Zakuska Posted August 28, 2007 Posted August 28, 2007 Its not about what I believe MorningStar. Its about what I can prove through the evidence available.I think I'll start a thread to show what the LDS church and its god taught as their/his 'everlasting' never ending doctrines/teachings that have been 'changed'. If the LDS leaders of that time called it a doctrine it was (and is) one. I think most of you don't know the half of what was taught, printed and published by your church. If they said it it came from God, especially if they then printed it. If they don't bar me from doing it- because its not pretty. Anyone want to see it (or is the truth too much to 'follow'?That would be really good... and please be sure and include the never changing doctrine/teachings of Circumcision and obstination of certian meats. Oops!!!
Doctor Steuss Posted August 28, 2007 Posted August 28, 2007 Its not about what I believe MorningStar. Its about what I can prove through the evidence available.I think I'll start a thread to show what the LDS church and its god taught as their/his 'everlasting' never ending doctrines/teachings that have been 'changed'. If the LDS leaders of that time called it a doctrine it was (and is) one. I think most of you don't know the half of what was taught, printed and published by your church. If they said it it came from God, especially if they then printed it. If they don't bar me from doing it- because its not pretty. Anyone want to see it (or is the truth too much to 'follow'?I think that you don't know half of what we do know was taught, printed and published by our church. Some of us spend an inordinate amount of money and time hunting down original sources, looking at alternate views, etc. It may surprise you that some of us have read books by *gasp* the Tanners and other critics of Mormonism. It may surprise you that some amongst us (and no, Iâ??m not saying me, but there are some here) have read the entire Journal of Discourses. It may surprise you that sometimes, some of us spend hours letting our eyeballs bug-out reading original journals, and scouring Uncle Daleâ??s vast archive of period publications.We know the quotes. We know the teachings. The difference is, many of us have read them in their original sources. We take context into mind. We take audience into consideration. We try to avoid presentism. We try to avoid bias (but we acknowledge that as humans we will inevitably have some). And most importantly. We try to hold our prophets to no higher standard than we hold the prophets of the Bible. Double standards and hypocrisy may be unavoidable ultimately, but some of us actually try to limit the amount we employ.
MorningStar Posted August 28, 2007 Posted August 28, 2007 Yes I believe Jonah was a prophet.He made a false prophecy, you know.
rocmonkey Posted August 28, 2007 Posted August 28, 2007 1- This is really cute. You're here to inform us!2- Could you do us a favor? As you "inform" us, it's sometimes hard to figure out what in the heck you're saying. You know, grammar, and all that. For instance, can you explain:I do hate to be nitpicky, but your posts are sometimes really disconnected because of unclear sentences (unclear, as in "what the heck is he saying here???").3- Golly, this could be taken several ways. Did you mean "your" instead of "you"?I do think you overestimate (and that's being charitable) your ability to present what you call "evidence". However, if you would like to respond to the specifics I've posted, feel free. You do have a tendency to ignore facts that undercut your preconceived notions.1- Yes, I am. 2- I asked for a reply from those here regarding JS prophecy about Christ's return and got nothing but a new and improved version of the story. The only answer that can be given that seldom is is JS is a false prophet. It only takes one the Bible says to make you a false prophet. JS said any one who says something that later proves to be untrue that person is a false prophet. (Hoc 1:373 ft.nt) He fits his own, and the Bible's, description. 3- trying to keep up with all the posts- there's only one of me and lots of you. Sorry, will work on grammar. Also, I have to watch what I say because the folks here don't like the truth much. I have been suspended for just giving LDS doctrines.
rocmonkey Posted August 28, 2007 Posted August 28, 2007 He made a false prophecy, you know.Give me a verse(s) please. If he did he IS a false prophet. The Bible is clear that all who do are.
rocmonkey Posted August 28, 2007 Posted August 28, 2007 Yep Just like Ezekiel... care to comment?Same with Jonah, show where. If he did he is a false prophet, too. The Bible says all who do are. If the shoe fits on him, I will say so loudly. I don't just pick on Mormons. I have spoken against Christians, at times, too. I stand on the Bible (NT especially) alone as God's only word to man- because it is.
Doctor Steuss Posted August 28, 2007 Posted August 28, 2007 1- Yes, I am. 2- I asked for a reply from those here regarding JS prophecy about Christ's return and got nothing but a new and improved version of the story. The only answer that can be given that seldom is is JS is a false prophet. It only takes one the Bible says to make you a false prophet. JS said any one who says something that later proves to be untrue that person is a false prophet. (Hoc 1:373 ft.nt) He fits his own, and the Bible's, description. 3- trying to keep up with all the posts- there's only one of me and lots of you. Sorry, will work on grammar. Also, I have to watch what I say because the folks here don't like the truth much. I have been suspended for just giving LDS doctrines.Evidently I missed the post. I did find one where you gave a quote from TPJS that was too much of a hack job to figure out. Would you mind posting the full quote (in context) if it isn't one that I have already addressed in my previous two posts on this topic.
Zakuska Posted August 28, 2007 Posted August 28, 2007 Same with Jonah, show where. If he did he is a false prophet, too. The Bible says all who do are. If the shoe fits on him, I will say so loudly. I don't just pick on Mormons. I have spoken against Christians, at times, too. I stand on the Bible (NT especially) alone as God's only word to man- because it is.I did... its on the last page. Here:http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php...7291&st=293So now are you going to live up to your word? And Rip Ezekiel from your Bible... even though Paul quoted some Prophecy from him?2 Cor 3 3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart. 2 Cor. 6: 16 16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. (Ezek. 11:19; Ezek. 36: 26; Ezek. 37: 27)Perhaps you should remove Pauls writings as well... Since he relied on a false prophet?
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted August 28, 2007 Posted August 28, 2007 1- Yes, I am. 2- I asked for a reply from those here regarding JS prophecy about Christ's return and got nothing but a new and improved version of the story. The only answer that can be given that seldom is is JS is a false prophet. It only takes one the Bible says to make you a false prophet. JS said any one who says something that later proves to be untrue that person is a false prophet. (Hoc 1:373 ft.nt) He fits his own, and the Bible's, description. 3- trying to keep up with all the posts- there's only one of me and lots of you. Sorry, will work on grammar. Also, I have to watch what I say because the folks here don't like the truth much. I have been suspended for just giving LDS doctrines.Maybe what you got was the correct version of the story?? ever think about that.Same with Jonah, show where. If he did he is a false prophet, too. The Bible says all who do are. If the shoe fits on him, I will say so loudly. I don't just pick on Mormons. I have spoken against Christians, at times, too. I stand on the Bible (NT especially) alone as God's only word to man- because it is.Please share with us were in the Bible it claims that it is the "alone as God's only word to man".
Doctor Steuss Posted August 28, 2007 Posted August 28, 2007 Same with Jonah, show where. If he did he is a false prophet, too. The Bible says all who do are. If the shoe fits on him, I will say so loudly. I don't just pick on Mormons. I have spoken against Christians, at times, too. I stand on the Bible (NT especially) alone as God's only word to man- because it is.If you are willing to abandon someone in the Bible for giving a "false prophecy," then how do you know the words in the bible regarding "false prophecy" are even true? How can you be so certain it is G-d's word when you are ready to admit there may be the words of false prophets within its pages.This is where dogmatic black-and-white thinking leads, and I believe this is why we're having such a hard time dialoguing with you. Most of us are not dogmatic black-and-white thinkers, and I think you're trying to project your ideals upon everyone else. Unless you are an ordained prophet of G-d, speaking with the Holy Spirit, then I don't know why you insist on projecting your dogmatic ideals upon others.
Avatar4321 Posted August 28, 2007 Posted August 28, 2007 Maybe what you got was the correct version of the story?? ever think about that.Please share with us were in the Bible it claims that it is the "alone as God's only word to man".Nah! Joseph's repeated statements that he doesnt know when the Second Coming will be just that it wont be before 1891 cant possibly possibly mean anything other than Joseph was prophecying that the Second Coming would occur in 1891. Sure the man's denying it but he is obviously lying.
LifeOnaPlate Posted August 28, 2007 Posted August 28, 2007 Apx. most of the arguments from one primate in this thread amount to "you lie like a fly with a booger in its eye."
Deborah Posted August 28, 2007 Posted August 28, 2007 Give me a verse(s) please. If he did he IS a false prophet. The Bible is clear that all who do are.This made me almost fall out of my chair. You really, really, really do not understand the calling of a prophet. Just as in the case of Jonah, prophecies are often predicated on certain things being met or not met. They are NOT black and white statements of unchangeable fact.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted August 28, 2007 Posted August 28, 2007 Nah! Joseph's repeated statements that he doesnt know when the Second Coming will be just that it wont be before 1891 cant possibly possibly mean anything other than Joseph was prophecying that the Second Coming would occur in 1891. Sure the man's denying it but he is obviously lying.Yeah heaven forbid! JS must have lied then. Its all true. Well I know the Church is true. Hmm
Zakuska Posted August 28, 2007 Posted August 28, 2007 Is it just me... or has the Monkey flown the coop?We got another Aaron Shaff on our hands!
LifeOnaPlate Posted August 28, 2007 Posted August 28, 2007 Totally shaf'd it. To his credit, he hung in there a lot longer than Shafavoloff does.
rocmonkey Posted August 28, 2007 Posted August 28, 2007 I think that you don't know half of what we do know was taught, printed and published by our church. Some of us spend an inordinate amount of money and time hunting down original sources, looking at alternate views, etc. It may surprise you that some of us have read books by *gasp* the Tanners and other critics of Mormonism. It may surprise you that some amongst us (and no, Iâ??m not saying me, but there are some here) have read the entire Journal of Discourses. It may surprise you that sometimes, some of us spend hours letting our eyeballs bug-out reading original journals, and scouring Uncle Daleâ??s vast archive of period publications.We know the quotes. We know the teachings. The difference is, many of us have read them in their original sources. We take context into mind. We take audience into consideration. We try to avoid presentism. We try to avoid bias (but we acknowledge that as humans we will inevitably have some). And most importantly. We try to hold our prophets to no higher standard than we hold the prophets of the Bible. Double standards and hypocrisy may be unavoidable ultimately, but some of us actually try to limit the amount we employ.I appreciate that response. I too have done a lot of buying and studying original LDS books. I know of another LDS who said he read the whole Jod but he didn't know about it saying they "deservedly ranks as one of the standard works of the Church" (title page Vol.. Or, that they teach Adam is LDS only God (1:50). So, sometimes when we read things we miss stuff by accident and other times by choice. As a student of the Bible its clear that it doesn't matter a lot about the reasons they say things. Its 'that' they said them or 'what' they say. Jesus never said anything that he knew we didn't need to hear, as well as those of his day. But I do understand why some think this is important. I look at religion from the standpoint that if one thing is contrary to the doctrines/teachings Jesus taught then nothing else matters. Christians say if the character of God is wrong in a religion, nothing else matters. That is true. The only standard of measurement we have is the Bible. It was the original source (both OT & NT) on the nature of God. I try not to be hypocritical and I don't like double standards at all. Unfortunately, I probably do both. Thanks for the info.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted August 28, 2007 Posted August 28, 2007 Is it just me... or has the Monkey flown the coop?We got another Aaron Shaff on our hands! Actually I think rocmonkey should be on Larry King.
Maidservant Posted August 28, 2007 Posted August 28, 2007 The gospel of Jesus Christ is something that cannot be justified? The gospel of Jesus Christ is indefensible? The gospel of Jesus Christ is my faith, and none else. I belong to His church.http://www.lds.org/pa/library/0,17905,5022-1,00.htmlhttp://lds.org/conference/talk/display/0,5...-690-30,00.htmlhttp://scriptures.lds.org/en/a_of_f/1http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/20http://www.lds.org/cm/catalogsearchseqrang...nd=140#nullLinkhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uslytyVrWFwhttp://scriptures.lds.org/www.mormon.orgwww.josephsmith.net1 I have been suspended for just giving LDS doctrines.You have not given LDS doctrine. Please understand that. 'Doctrine' in LDS means something relatively specific. If you are in Teachings of Joseph Smith, you are not in doctrine. Please start with the Bible and the Book of Mormon and probably General Conference for doctrine.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted August 28, 2007 Posted August 28, 2007 The gospel of Jesus Christ is something that cannot be justified? The gospel of Jesus Christ is indefensible? The gospel of Jesus Christ is my faith, and none else. I belong to His church.http://www.lds.org/pa/library/0,17905,5022-1,00.htmlhttp://lds.org/conference/talk/display/0,5...-690-30,00.htmlhttp://scriptures.lds.org/en/a_of_f/1http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/20http://www.lds.org/cm/catalogsearchseqrang...nd=140#nullLinkhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uslytyVrWFwhttp://scriptures.lds.org/www.mormon.orgwww.josephsmith.netYou have not given LDS doctrine. Please understand that. 'Doctrine' in LDS means something relatively specific. If you are in Teachings of Joseph Smith, you are not in doctrine. Please start with the Bible and the Book of Mormon and probably General Conference for doctrine.Amen Maidservant.
Pahoran Posted August 28, 2007 Posted August 28, 2007 Oh Pahoran, not the watered down version (DC). The 'one' I quoted from JS Teachings! I gave it so go back and read it.Yes, I saw it. So, do you know what "JS Teachings" is? Do you even care? I doubt it; you've shown not the slighest interest in factual accuracy in anything you've posted.Since you don't know, and despite the fact that you don't care, I will tell you: it is not a book authored by Joseph Smith. Rather, it is a collection of some of his talks. They were recorded without the use of modern recording equipment or even stenographic methods. They were simply written down as longhand notes at the time.The accuracy of such transcripts cannot be relied upon.That said, please note that I responded to your posting of your selective excerpts. I showed that Joseph made no prophecy therein. You have entirely failed to respond to my post. You have not even acknowledged that it was made.And do you know what that means?It means that my response to you stands unanswerd.And do you know what else that means?It means that it is grossly dishonest for you to continue to repeat your false and discredited polemic as though it had not been refuted.It has been.When you use the DC you must know some of it has been changed to fit the times. This is another example of that. Please (please) CFR this statement.Very well: since you asked so nicely,CFR on your claim that Doctrine and Covenants Section 130, verses 14 to 17 has been "watered down" or "changed to fit the times.Do not try to distract us with irrelevant red herrings about any other subject.Do not try to dodge this one.Provide the reference you challenged me to ask for.If you can't answer, that's ok. Most don't even try so you're doing better than most. You still didn't answer my quote of JS prophecy, though.That statement is as truthful as everything else you've written on this thread; that is, it is blatantly and brazenly false.And you know it.Its one of those 'new and improved' versions I mentioned earlier that the LDS do a lot when changing their doctrines to fit the culture, times and events that always hit them (and their god?) by surprise.Tell me, Rocmonkey, because I'd really like to know: do you consciously choose to employ such dishonest tactics as this, or are they now totally ingrained in your nature?Regards,Pahoran
Calm Posted August 28, 2007 Posted August 28, 2007 Hmmm, Moderator are you there?Moderators don't read every thread or every post in a thread. You need to report something using the report function/button located below a post.
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