D&c 19:16-17

[Lamanite]

We WILL be assigned to a Kingdom where WE will be happiest for time and all eternity.

This statement will require another thread

[bluebell]

Not to sound condescending but if you cannot find it scripturally then you've got no foundation. This is why our canon of scripture is exactly is used to "measure", canon=measure.

I CAN find it scripturally-which is why i said that i don't know WHY there will be a time when it will be 'everlastingly too late'-only that the scriptures teach it is so.

sorry if i was not clear.

[Lamanite]

I do not think there to be any progression between kingdoms. To me it seems that it is more like trying to be able to live an improper life and then get out of it in the end, rationalizing sin now by thinking you can jump from one place to the next.

Yeah, you're just like the laborer who is constantly comparing to make sure everyone get's what they deserve. I hope you get what you deserve.

I'm frustrated now. Forget I asked anything. I wish I could delete this thread.

[moreholinessgiveme]

This statement will require another thread

That's fine.

Remember -- HE didn't have "have to" do ANY of this. In many regards it is a TOTAL GIFT -- ALL OF IT IS A GIFT TO US.

I can't sit there in the Telestial Kingdom and GRIPE. For I am griping about a TOTAL GIFT to me. If I decided I didn't want to take MORE advantage of the TOTAL GIFT God was offering me -- then why is that God's fault or responsibility to fix now?

Didn't God TELL ME that I only had a certain amount of time to take advantage of His TOTAL GIFT?

Yes ... He did tell me. He told me OVER and OVER and OVER again.

But I just didn't want to believe it.

Instead -- I held-out the hope that there was some UNSPOKEN LOOPHOLE.

"God didn't REALLY MEAN 'now is the time to prepare to meet Me' -- that's just silly talk"

Well -- it wasn't and it isn't "just silly talk".

God expects us to take His counsel seriously -- as any Father does.

If we choose not to listen -- that really is sad and unfortunate -- but it is OUR fault. not His.

[bluebell]

Yeah, you're just like the laborer who is constantly comparing to make sure everyone get's what they deserve. I hope you get what you deserve.

I'm frustrated now. Forget I asked anything. I wish I could delete this thread.

lamanite, why are you frustrated?

Is it because not everyone agrees with you, because we aren't understanding you, or some other reason?

I just don't get why what Truth said has produced such a negative reaction here.

[HiJolly]

It is my belief that the 'final' judgement is scheduled differently for each of us. It may indeed be more than ANY given # of aeons away. We just don't know. All we know is, that AFTER the final judgement, there is no other, it is final.

I tend to think it will occur after we are ready to receive all we ever will receive, and that it will not be soon for most of us, even in the afterlife. I also think there will be much we CAN do after this life, including repentance. But the development we attain to here will materially affect what we can do, and in what time-frame we do it in, over there. It will set the paradigm, to some extent.

I also think that because of this, discussion of movement between degrees of glory is fairly moot.

HiJolly

[moreholinessgiveme]

It is my belief that the 'final' judgement is scheduled differently for each of us. It may indeed be more than ANY given # of aeons away. We just don't know. All we know is, that AFTER the final judgement, there is no other, it is final.

I tend to think it will occur after we are ready to receive all we ever will receive, and that it will not be soon for most of us, even in the afterlife. I also think there will be much we CAN do after this life, including repentance. But the development we attain to here will materially affect what we can do, and in what time-frame we do it in, over there. It will set the paradigm, to some extent.

I also think that because of this, discussion of movement between degrees of glory is fairly moot.

HiJolly

Hello HiJolly. That was interesting to say, just now.

You bring up an excellent observation, I think. That the "Day of Judgement" may not (necessarily) be what perhaps some of us envision. I think it will take into account all of these "vagaries". But I suspect that when that day arrives -- there won't be any room for debate, for "I didn't know" or "I didn't understand". It won't be like that.

It will be a personal Priesthood interview (of sorts). Just between Christ and ourselves.

The following verse comes to mind:

2 Ne. 9: 41

41 O then, my beloved brethren, come unto the Lord, the Holy One. Remember that his paths are righteous. Behold, the way for man is narrow, but it lieth in a straight course before him, and the keeper of the gate is the Holy One of Israel; and he employeth no servant there; and there is none other way save it be by the gate; for he cannot be deceived, for the Lord God is his name.

I pull out of this verse two ( I think ) extremely important truths about He Whom We Worship:

1) He employeth no servants. Especially for the important parts. It's personal. Between myself and Him alone. Just a room and two chairs.

2) He cannot be deceived. Whatever I am, whatever I have become (or refused to pursue due to pride or selfishness) -- I will look into His eyes and I will know He knows it. In fact, as I sit here writing this...I can feel the power and the truth of it. He will know me. My excuses will be gone as I gaze into the eyes of the Man of Holiness. He who truly DID give "all that He hath" to save me. Wow, what a day that will be.

I need to be so careful how I say this, but -- Lamanite, if you REALLY think this theory of yours holds water, then I am happy to try and explain this to you. I'll take as long as it takes.

But if you are just hoping our lack of effective response proves your theory is somehow correct -- but in your heart of hearts even YOU don't believe it is the truth -- well, I commend you to our Savior. I promise you that at some point you will know the truth.

[HiJolly]

Bluebell: Because God said so.

Lamanite: I can actually accept this answer if that the best we have.

-----

I doubt God said so.

HiJolly

[mocnarf]

So just to get a better grasp of how this "paying for your own sins" might work. So let's say, we have an individual that desired in spirit prison that he wants to pay for his own sins. Now let's say that this individual died on the day he/she became "accountible for his own sins" (about 8 years of age) but before dying he stole a piece of bread and was shot to death by the shop keeper. Now, let's also say their is an old man that died after years of being an adulterer and an all round evil doer.

My question is if both of these indiviuals deside to suffer justice for their own sins rather than accepting Christ's repentence offer, then there be a difference in the type of punishment and/or the duration of the punishment that either of these two would receive?? Also, is this punishment executed while they are in spirit prison or after they are assigned the eternal body (either the Telestial of Terrestrial model)??

I am assuming that the punishment would be executed while they are in the spirit prison rather than when they arrive at either the Terrestrial or Telestial Kingdoms because of what was stated in a post above:

I think that this probation IS designed with care. I think it MUST be the most effective way for God to show US what we truly DESIRE and WOULD HAVE DESIRED for all ages of time.

We WILL be assigned to a Kingdom where WE will be HAPPIEST for time and all eternity.

[moreholinessgiveme]

So just to get a better grasp of how this "paying for your own sins" might work. So let's say, we have an individual that desired in spirit prison that he wants to pay for his own sins. Now let's say that this individual died on the day he/she became "accountible for his own sins" (about 8 years of age) but before dying he stole a piece of bread and was shot to death by the shop keeper. Now, let's also say their is an old man that died after years of being an adulterer and an all round evil doer.

My question is if both of these indiviuals deside to suffer justice for their own sins rather than accepting Christ's repentence offer, then there be a difference in the type of punishment and/or the duration of the punishment that either of these two would receive?? Also, is this punishment executed while they are in spirit prison or after they are assigned the eternal body (either the Telestial of Terrestrial model)??

I am assuming that the punishment would be executed while they are in the spirit prison rather than when they arrive at either the Terrestrial or Telestial Kingdoms because of what was stated in a post above:

I have to admit, I don't know.

Only God can judge the hearts of these men in your story.

I think a lot of it depends on US. How much we suffer -- or even IF we suffer at all.

Christ has promised that the suffering we WOULD have endured is covered by His Atonement -- if we repent.

I think it is best to focus on that - vs "how much" one person might suffer vs another.

Make returning to God your goal. There is enough to be done in that regard that doing such can require ALL of your focus starting NOW.

[Rob Osborn]

The doctrine ofChrist is a progressive doctrine built line upon line according to peoples diligence and yearning. That said, we can trace back the doctrine of Christ from Nephis time.

In Nephi's time there was no doctrine taught of what happens to spirits once they depart mortal life. The only doctrine they had was one pieced together from their own deduction and reasoning that was "not" necessarily a true doctrine of Christ. Notice how hundreds of years later near their distinction that the prophetes enquired of the lord and even then was not told very much only now they knew that there was a space of time and place for spirits of both the righteous and the wicked. Now fast forward some 1500 years and now through our prophets yearnings we have been revealed that not only is the gospel preached to the dead, they too can repent and recieve the gospel in it's fulness including the blessings of eternal life, this goes for the ones who even rejected the gospel while in mortality.

That said we can begin to piece together the real puzzle pieces. First look at section 19. Section 19 in it's talking of those who refuse to repent are not talking of future telestial bound individuals. The key to the section is finding out the time frame Christ is referring to when speaking of the "eternal damnation" of the individual. What Christ is referring to is specifically that to those who refuse to repent by the great final day at the "end" of the millennium will have to suffer themselves. Everyone else up to this great last day who repents will not have to suffer "like Christ" but will be able to have their sins atoned for through the atonement of Christ.

That said, (whew), the logic of 128, 138 sections make sense that Christ will redeem all in the spirit world who accept the gospel. Now remember that the not only is gospel is the law of the Celestial Kingdom, but it is also the very law to being saved from the ultimate eternal damnation of ones soul who refuses to repent by the great last day after the millennium. Christ spoke of enduring to the "end" And what he specifically meant is enduring until the great last day of judgment (see 3 Nephi). The Nephites thought that once one died that was it- no repentance granted after death, but the gospel of Christ actually teaches the contrary that one can repent, be forgiven and baptized after death. Basically- one can and must change after death if he does not want to be cast off from Gods presence (second death).

This brings about the final puzzle piece- Namely, that there is really only one place that the saved go after the great last day of judgment- The Celestial Kingdom! So what about the two lower kingdoms? Once again- the whole line upon line concept. The telestail and Terrestrial kingdoms were later revealed as to there whereabouts and origins and their meanings. This knowlege is found in the temple where it is revealed that the Telestial and Terrestrial Kingdooms are nothing more than the earth in it's different stages of eternal progression and that this earth right now is that Telestial kingdom that is mentioned in the scriptures.

Mysteries, mysteries, mysteries....line upon line upon line!

[Lamanite]

This theory of mine is not mine nor was it invented by me. After reading section 19 I asked the same questions many have asked including Bruce C Hafen and Robert Millet and Andrew Skinner and I'm sure many more.

The answer to the question is I DON"T KNOW. I conclude none of you do either. What is frustrating is the typical "you're only asking cuz you want to live a life of sin and cheat your way into heaven cuz of this loophole" response. This is soooo Mormon of us. What really motivates me is this.

As a father of four daughters I can't imagine having one of them come to me and say "Dad, I'm sorry I let you down. I've been stubborn and prideful and have met the demands of justice according to your law. It was horrible. But Dad, I'm ready to come home now, and I know my older brother's sacrifice will help me do that. Will you accept me?". There is no question but that I will open arms wide and rejoice! Shall I relay the parable of the prodigle son? And which of you would deny such an one as this? Anyway, if my love is this strong then multiply it by infinity and then you will still fall short of Gods love for each of us.

If section 19 is accurate that we may meet the demands of justice for ourselves then Justice is satisfied.

Then we accept at that point the infinite Atonement, then Mercy is satisfied.

Then why not after having all the immutable laws of God met, cannot God say "after much tribulation sione has become true and faithful through the merits of the only begotten, come and enter into the Kingdom of God."

[mocnarf]

This theory of mine is not mine nor was it invented by me. After reading section 19 I asked the same questions many have asked including Bruce C Hafen and Robert Millet and Andrew Skinner and I'm sure many more.

The answer to the question is I DON"T KNOW. I conclude none of you do either. What is frustrating is the typical "you're only asking cuz you want to live a life of sin and cheat your way into heaven cuz of this loophole" response. This is soooo Mormon of us. What really motivates me is this.

As a father of four daughters I can't imagine having one of them come to me and say "Dad, I'm sorry I let you down. I've been stubborn and prideful and have met the demands of justice according to your law. It was horrible. But Dad, I'm ready to come home now, and I know my older brother's sacrifice will help me do that. Will you accept me?". There is no question but that I will open arms wide and rejoice! Shall I relay the parable of the prodigle son? And which of you would deny such an one as this? Anyway, if my love is this strong then multiply it by infinity and then you will still fall short of Gods love for each of us.

If section 19 is accurate that we may meet the demands of justice for ourselves then Justice is satisfied.

Then we accept at that point the infinite Atonement, then Mercy is satisfied.

Then why not after having all the immutable laws of God met, cannot God say "after much tribulation sione has become true and faithful through the merits of the only begotten, come and enter into the Kingdom of God."

From the religious descriptions of what God is like, I am sure I would not have wanted him as my earthly father. Can you imagin being in a family that when younger family members does something that was against their fathers instructions, that the Father would then have the oldest oldest child punished for the transgressions of the youngest child. No, this is not the type of father I would want to have.

[Lamanite]

From the religious descriptions of what God is like, I am sure I would not have wanted him as my earthly father. Can you imagin being in a family that when younger family members does something that was against their fathers instructions, that the Father would then have the oldest oldest child punished for the transgressions of the youngest child. No, this is not the type of father I would want to have.

Sure, if the older sibling volunteered.

[BCSpace]

Ahh, Lamanite beat me to the question: Does the atonement cease to be efficacious after we inherit a kingdom?

If the universe including heaven is a closed system, perhaps grace takes you as far as the available energy provided by your works allows and no further due to entropy.

[moreholinessgiveme]

This theory of mine is not mine nor was it invented by me. After reading section 19 I asked the same questions many have asked including Bruce C Hafen and Robert Millet and Andrew Skinner and I'm sure many more.

The answer to the question is I DON"T KNOW. I conclude none of you do either. What is frustrating is the typical "you're only asking cuz you want to live a life of sin and cheat your way into heaven cuz of this loophole" response. This is soooo Mormon of us. What really motivates me is this.

As a father of four daughters I can't imagine having one of them come to me and say "Dad, I'm sorry I let you down. I've been stubborn and prideful and have met the demands of justice according to your law. It was horrible. But Dad, I'm ready to come home now, and I know my older brother's sacrifice will help me do that. Will you accept me?". There is no question but that I will open arms wide and rejoice! Shall I relay the parable of the prodigle son? And which of you would deny such an one as this? Anyway, if my love is this strong then multiply it by infinity and then you will still fall short of Gods love for each of us.

If section 19 is accurate that we may meet the demands of justice for ourselves then Justice is satisfied.

Then we accept at that point the infinite Atonement, then Mercy is satisfied.

Then why not after having all the immutable laws of God met, cannot God say "after much tribulation sione has become true and faithful through the merits of the only begotten, come and enter into the Kingdom of God."

Lamanite:

First of all, I want to apologize for my insinuating "You're only asking cuz you want to live a life of sin and cheat your way into heaven cuz of this loophole". You don't deserve that from me, or anyone. That was way out of line -- and I apologize.

This future point in time -- the one where this person comes to his senses and finally decides to avail himself of the Atonement -- that time is right now. We each get our turn, and it is gauranteed to be a fair, accurate, and an ETERNAL weighing and deciding of where we will be happiest. It will be Christ who makes this decision.

You are not wrong about the Father being merciful or loving. I just think you are wrong about there being an eternity of time in which to decide what we want. It's Father's plan - don't you think He would tell us if there was more than one chance?

We already arrived at the point where we were ready to prove it to ourselves.

Also, let's not forget - 1/3 of the hosts of heaven DID NOT make it even this far.

Why would we believe that they don't get a second chance -- but WE somehow do?

[Lamanite]

Lamanite:

First of all, I want to apologize for my insinuating "You're only asking cuz you want to live a life of sin and cheat your way into heaven cuz of this loophole". You don't deserve that from me, or anyone. That was way out of line -- and I apologize.

This future point in time -- the one where this person comes to his senses and finally decides to avail himself of the Atonement -- that time is right now. We each get our turn, and it is gauranteed to be a fair, accurate, and an ETERNAL weighing and deciding of where we will be happiest. It will be Christ who makes this decision.

You are not wrong about the Father being merciful or loving. I just think you are wrong about there being an eternity of time in which to decide what we want. It's Father's plan - don't you think He would tell us if there was more than one chance?

We already arrived at the point where we were ready to prove it to ourselves.

Also, let's not forget - 1/3 of the hosts of heaven DID NOT make it even this far.

Why would we believe that they don't get a second chance -- but WE somehow do?

Thanks for the apology. You didn't need to but it was nice of you nevertheless. What you say makes sense. Unfortunately what I say makes sense. So I guess I'm back to I don't know. What I do know is God loves me and you, and today has been a good day.

[mocnarf]

Sure, if the older sibling volunteered.

You would.... I guess self interest over rides fairness.

You know you could follow this example in your own family, you could beat the oldest when the youngest acts up. If, you start doing this when they are really young they would all grow up thinking that was normal.

Now, seriously, this is idea of someone else having to to pay the price of your sins, makes no sence to me at all.

I am told that JUSTICE demands that sins are punished. Religious people talk about Justice like it is some uncontrolable cosmic force. Tell me, who in vented the law of justice? And, who defines what it means and what it demands?

Correct me if I misunderstand, but didn't God invent and define the Law Of Justice. Why can't God find it in his own heart to forgive, Why does he have to have to punish a third party (willing or not) ?

Can you imagine a criminal system, based on punishing an innocent family member when someone in the family breaks the law?

I am sorry but this whole "plan of salvation" thing has never made any sense to me. And, the more I think about it the less sense it makes.

[Lamanite]

You would.... I guess self interest over rides fairness.

You know you could follow this example in your own family, you could beat the oldest when the youngest acts up. If, you start doing this when they are really young they would all grow up thinking that was normal.

Now, seriously, this is idea of someone else having to to pay the price of your sins, makes no sence to me at all.

I am told that JUSTICE demands that sins are punished. Religious people talk about Justice like it is some uncontrolable cosmic force. Tell me, who in vented the law of justice? And, who defines what it means and what it demands?

Correct me if I misunderstand, but didn't God invent and define the Law Of Justice. Why can't God find it in his own heart to forgive, Why does he have to have to punish a third party (willing or not) ?

Can you imagine a criminal system, based on punishing an innocent family member when someone in the family breaks the law?

I am sorry but this whole "plan of salvation" thing has never made any sense to me. And, the more I think about it the less sense it makes.

Justice is not a law that God invented. It is an immutable law of the universe to which God is an adherent. Mercy also falls into this category.

If it doesn't make sense, that's ok. Be as good as you know how to be. I'm going to quit spending time writing to you guys today and go play with my kids. Maybe I'll find a way to serve someone. Maybe that would be a good idea for you too.

Big up!

[Truth]

Another reason I don't believe there is kingdom hopping is how is it fair for those who did as they should, took on the Atonement, and endured to only find out they could have made it anyway at a later point. Kind of takes away the incentive.

Also, the BoM clearly states that these are the days of our probation, not later:

Gen. 3: 22 (Moses 4: 28) man is become as one of us, to know good and evil.

Job 7: 18 visit him every morning, and try him every moment.

Job 36: 11 If they obey . . . shall spend their days in prosperity.

2 Cor. 8: 2 in a great trial of affliction the abundance of their joy . . . abounded.

1 Pet. 1: 6 season, if need be, ye are in heaviness.

1 Ne. 10: 21 sought to do wickedly in the days of your probation.

1 Ne. 15: 32 works which were done . . . in their days of probation.

2 Ne. 2: 21 their state became a state of probation.

2 Ne. 9: 27 wasteth the days of his probation.

2 Ne. 33: 9 continue in the path until the end of the day of probation.

Alma 12: 24 this life became a probationary state, a time to prepare.

Alma 42: 4 a probationary time, a time to repent and serve God.

Hel. 13: 38 your days of probation are past.

Morm. 9: 28 Be wise in the days of your probation.

D&C 29: 43 appoint unto man the days of his probationthat.

D&C 58: 4 (D&C 103: 12) after much tribulation come the blessings.

D&C 105: 19 brought thus far for a trial of their faith.

D&C 121: 8 if thou endure it well, God shall exalt thee.

Abr. 3: 25 we will prove them herewith.

[Lamanite]

Another reason I don't believe there is kingdom hopping is how is it fair for those who did as they should, took on the Atonement, and endured to only find out they could have made it anyway at a later point. Kind of takes away the incentive.

LOL! I wonder how many times I have to quote the parable of the workers in the vineyard. Quit worrying about everyone else and what they got that you may not have got. Be happy you made it. Otherwise I hope you really do get what you deserve. And when you become more Christ like, maybe you will be happy others made it too(and not worry how long they had to work in the vineyard to get there).

[Cold Steel]

I agree that the punishment and suffering for sins is retributive. So once Justice is satisfied and the price is paid, does mercy come into play. If the Atonement is both Eternal and infinite why would it not be available to those in the telestial kingdom who finally want Christ in their life and the ability to progress?

Hell is remedial, not retribution. Our sins and the nature of our resurrection determine where we can go and what we can do. Christ suffered for Adam's transgression, which brought death into the world. Thus, no man will have to suffer the effects of physical death. But Christ's atonement was twofold. He also died for our sins if we will repent, believe in His name and keep His commandments.

Those who lived telestial lives will suffer the torments of hell until they have paid the utmost farthing. When they emerge from hell, they will be holy beings; however, they will be resurrected to a telestial glory. This means that they will have perfected, glorified bodies, but will forever be suited to a telestial order. The Lord says that they will never be able to be with the celestial beings, nor will they be able to endure their glory.

Now the Lord says that where these celestial beings dwell, they, the telestial beings, can not come, worlds without end. But whether they can go from glory to glory over a very long time is still unknown. I would think that if it were possible, that path is certainly one we wouldn't take if we could help it. As it stands, while telestial beings are capable of eternal progression, they'll never be able to change the physical limitations of their bodies. Celestial beings will dwell with the Father in eternal family units; the terrestrial beings will be ministered unto by those in the Celestial Kingdom, and the telestial beings will be ministered to by terrerestial beings.

Speculating, I would say that celestial and terrestrial beings are capable of seeing and comprehending many wonderful things beyond the understanding of those in the telestial kingdom. They can probably transport themselves instantly by thought; however, I suspect the telestial beings may need to devise external conveyances. And while celestial beings will be involved in the creation of other worlds, and terrestrial beings will be able to minister to those worlds, I think the capabilities of those in the telestial kindom also will be expanded. They'll be able to do card tricks and amaze each other with mind control tricks like that guy Derren Brown on the Sci-Fi Channel. They'll also be able to make coins appear from behind each other's ears and that sort of thing. After a few years of wowing each other, I suspect they'll write books accusing Mormon apologists of tricking them into not joining the church and well, you get the picture.

[Daniel Peterson]

Correct me if I misunderstand, but didn't God invent and define the Law Of Justice.

My understanding of Mormon doctrine is that he didn't, that he is subject to it no less than we are. In this regard, Latter-day Saints differ from typical Calvinist and Islamic understandings of divine sovereignty.

P.S. -- Mocnarf, if you feel the need to express your contempt for me as forthrightly here as you express it on your other board, please feel free to do so, and I'll try to persuade the moderators here to make an exception for you. Let me know.

[Doctor Steuss]

If there is progression between kingdoms, would it not necessitate that there could potentially be digression as well?

Just something that this thread got me ponderinâ??.

[Rob Osborn]

Progression through Kingdoms, hum...

I think it is very interesting indeed that the Temple teaches that the only way for us to return to him is through the telestial and terrestrial kingdoms. Those two kingdoms are the progressive stages of the earth and is also the pathway designed for our perfection in all things.

Just something to ponder.