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D&c 19:16-17


Lamanite

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16 For behold, I, God, have asuffered these things for all, that they might not bsuffer if they would crepent;

17 But if they would not repent they must asuffer even as I;

D&C 19:16-17

Does this mean after "they" suffer and meet the demands of justice "they" are then free to progress?

I have a great quote from Andrew Skinner on this but will need to get it and post later. However, I am interested in others thoughts.

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16 For behold, I, God, have asuffered these things for all, that they might not bsuffer if they would crepent;

17 But if they would not repent they must asuffer even as I;

D&C 19:16-17

Does this mean after "they" suffer and meet the demands of justice "they" are then free to progress?

I have a great quote from Andrew Skinner on this but will need to get it and post later. However, I am interested in others thoughts.

To an extent. Advancement between degrees of glory after this life is not held as an official LDS doctrine. It was actually specified, if I recall correctly, as a heresy by Elder McConkie.

Being punished for sins is not neccessarily rehabilitative, but it is retributive. The reason "this life is the time" for us to prepare to meet God is because we have access to the grace of Christ. Repenting, then, is rehabilitative. Punishment without the atonement is retributive. Elder Bruce C. Hafen has written a lot on the subject.

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To an extent. Advancement between degrees of glory after this life is not held as an official LDS doctrine. It was actually specified, if I recall correctly, as a heresy by Elder McConkie.
Wouldn't jive very well with those that suppose that this mortal probation is the telestial kingdom. (Thankfully I'm not one of them.)
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as i understand it, no it doesn't.

Bruce C. Hafen asked this same question that you have asked here, and then answered it-

"I once wondered if those who refuse to repent but who then satisfy the law of justice by paying for their own sins are then worthy to enter the clestial kingdom. The answer is no. The entrance requirements for celestial life are simply higher than merely satisfying the law of justice. For that reason, paying for our sins (our works) will not bear the same fruit as repenting of our sins (receiving the gift of grace offered through the Savior's Atonement). Justice is a law of balance and order and it must be satisfied, either through our payment or His. But if we decline the Savior's invitation to let Him carry our sins, and then satisfy justice by ourselves, we will not yet have experienced the complete rehabilitation that can occur through a combination of divine assitances and genuine repentance. Working together, those forces have the power permanently to change our hearts and our lives."

:P

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To an extent. Advancement between degrees of glory after this life is not held as an official LDS doctrine. It was actually specified, if I recall correctly, as a heresy by Elder McConkie.

Being punished for sins is not neccessarily rehabilitative, but it is retributive. The reason "this life is the time" for us to prepare to meet God is because we have access to the grace of Christ. Repenting, then, is rehabilitative. Punishment without the atonement is retributive. Elder Bruce C. Hafen has written a lot on the subject.

I agree that the punishment and suffering for sins is retributive. So once Justice is satisfied and the price is paid, does mercy come into play. If the Atonement is both Eternal and infinite why would it not be available to those in the telestial kingdom who finally want Christ in their life and the ability to progress?

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I agree that the punishment and suffering for sins is retributive. So once Justice is satisfied and the price is paid, does mercy come into play. If the Atonement is both Eternal and infinite why would it not be available to those in the telestial kingdom who finally want Christ in their life and the ability to progress?
Ahh, Lamanite beat me to the question: Does the atonement cease to be efficacious after we inherit a kingdom?
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I agree that the punishment and suffering for sins is retributive. So once Justice is satisfied and the price is paid, does mercy come into play. If the Atonement is both Eternal and infinite why would it not be available to those in the telestial kingdom who finally want Christ in their life and the ability to progress?

Hafen goes on to explain-

"The Savior asks for our repentance not merely to compensate Him for paying our debt to justice, but also as a way of inducing us to undergo the process of development that will make our nature divine, give us the capacity to live the celestial law....."

A person who refuses to allow Christ to pay for their sins-and is forced to pay for them themselves, may have satisfied the law of justice but their nature has not changed in a way that will allow them to live the law of the celestial kingdom.

In short-they have not become 'born again' as a new creature-which is a necessary change for one who will enter the celestial kingdom.

:P

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Ahh, Lamanite beat me to the question: Does the atonement cease to be efficacious after we inherit a kingdom?

more from hafen-

"The natural man will remain an enemy of God forever-even after paying for his own sins-unless he also 'becometh a saint through the Atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child. (mosiah 3:19)"

Then question then becomes, is it possible to become a saint through the Atonement of Christ when one has refused His ATonement and chosen instead to suffer for his sins himself?

I don't believe so.

:P

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as i understand it, no it doesn't.

Bruce C. Hafen asked this same question that you have asked here, and then answered it-

"I once wondered if those who refuse to repent but who then satisfy the law of justice by paying for their own sins are then worthy to enter the clestial kingdom. The answer is no. The entrance requirements for celestial life are simply higher than merely satisfying the law of justice. For that reason, paying for our sins (our works) will not bear the same fruit as repenting of our sins (receiving the gift of grace offered through the Savior's Atonement). Justice is a law of balance and order and it must be satisfied, either through our payment or His. But if we decline the Savior's invitation to let Him carry our sins, and then satisfy justice by ourselves, we will not yet have experienced the complete rehabilitation that can occur through a combination of divine assitances and genuine repentance. Working together, those forces have the power permanently to change our hearts and our lives."

:P

This is similar to what Andrew Skinner said. Do you have a ref so we can read his remarks in their entirety?

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This is similar to what Andrew Skinner said. Do you have a ref so we can read his remarks in their entirety?

My reference for the words of Hafen is Robert Millet's book "Jesus Christ, the only sure foundation".

But Millet references the quotes to Hafen's book "The Broken Heart" pages 7-8.

:P

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Hafen goes on to explain-

"The Savior asks for our repentance not merely to compensate Him for paying our debt to justice, but also as a way of inducing us to undergo the process of development that will make our nature divine, give us the capacity to live the celestial law....."

A person who refuses to allow Christ to pay for their sins-and is forced to pay for them themselves, may have satisfied the law of justice but their nature has not changed in a way that will allow them to live the law of the celestial kingdom.

In short-they have not become 'born again' as a new creature-which is a necessary change for one who will enter the celestial kingdom.

I quite agree with Hafen's assertion that character is the ultimate requirement. But it doesn't answer the question posed by Lamanite either. He phrased it in terms of the telestial kingdom. What about those that inherit a celestial kingdom? Can we only inherit the kingdom after a completion perfection of our being as Christ is? Or do we merely demonstrate the capacity to do so by moving well on our way to that end? (D&C 88:29?) If the latter, wouldn't we need the power of the atonement to advance ourselves internally to a kingdom?
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more from hafen-

"The natural man will remain an enemy of God forever-even after paying for his own sins-unless he also 'becometh a saint through the Atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child. (mosiah 3:19)"

Then question then becomes, is it possible to become a saint through the Atonement of Christ when one has refused His ATonement and chosen instead to suffer for his sins himself?

I don't believe so.

:P

Some of us are more hard headed than others. Let's say after 472.9 eons I finally set aside my pride and cry out for forgiveness and divine help in all sincerity and humility. I recognize I didn't want it then- but I so desperately want it now. (this is actually a pattern that elder Maxwell called the "ebb and flow" of spirituality.) If the Atonement is Eternal and Infinite, why would a loving God not extend forgivness and nuture me into His presence?

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16 For behold, I, God, have asuffered these things for all, that they might not bsuffer if they would crepent;

17 But if they would not repent they must asuffer even as I;

D&C 19:16-17

Does this mean after "they" suffer and meet the demands of justice "they" are then free to progress?

I have a great quote from Andrew Skinner on this but will need to get it and post later. However, I am interested in others thoughts.

Understanding what this means is crucial - especially if you plan to be one of those who suffer.

In other words -- I think the Savior's emphasis is that we do NOT have to suffer IF we repent. So why not just repent? THEN you don't have to "worry" about what would have happened to you, otherwise.

Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ, the Scriptures -- are all much easier to absorb and understand and receive into our hearts when seen in terms of BLESSINGS we can receive instead of PUNISHMENT.

I often struggle understanding how BAD it will be for me if I am focused on evil.

But I have a much easier time understanding HOW GOOD it will be for me if I am focused on GOOD.

If I could reframe those verses in the positive:

16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all so they can be redeemed -- they will be redeemed and have a fullness of joy if they repent;

17 They who repent will be redeemed and have a fullness of joy;

The original wording is kind of like the THREAT of a spanking which a parent HOPES they will not have to follow-through on:

16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;

17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;

"If you don't repent, you're gonna get a spanking, kid!!!! Don't say I didn't WARN you!!!!"

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I quite agree with Hafen's assertion that character is the ultimate requirement. But it doesn't answer the question posed by Lamanite either. He phrased it in terms of the telestial kingdom. What about those that inherit a celestial kingdom? Can we only inherit the kingdom after a completion perfection of our being as Christ is? Or do we merely demonstrate the capacity to do so by moving well on our way to that end? (D&C 88:29?) If the latter, wouldn't we need the power of the atonement to advance ourselves internally to a kingdom?

Yes, i believe we would need the power of the ATonement to advance to perfection, even after death-

but Lamanite asked concerning someone who refused to allow the SAvior to pay for their sins-which is a much question than you are asking here concerning someone who inherits the celestial kingdom because of the grace of Christ.

The first has shunned the Atonement of Christ-which, in my understanding, nullfies it's enabling power after death.

The second accepted and desired the Atonement of Christ-which allows it's enabling power to work eternally.

Therefore, hafen's words, speaking about those who will inherit the telestial kingdom, do, in my understanding, answer lamanite's question but do not address specifcally your question (but i feel they do give great insight into your question as well).

:P

Some of us are more hard headed than others. Let's say after 472.9 eons I finally set aside my pride and cry out for forgiveness in all sincerity and humility. The point is I didn't want it then but I so desperately want it now. (this is actually a pattern that elder Maxwell called the "ebb and flow" of spirituality.) If the Atonement is Eternal and Infinite, why would a loving God not extend forgivness and nuture me into His presence?

because this life is the time to prepare to meet God and eventually it will be 'everlastingly to late' to repent.

<_<

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In other words -- I think the Savior's emphasis is that we do NOT have to suffer IF we repent. So why not just repent? THEN you don't have to "worry" about what would have happened to you, otherwise.

I'm not worried about myself, I'm worried about my brothers and sisters who are having a hard time. This type of concern is evidenced in the great conversion of people like Enos, Alma the Younger, Abinidai etc.. Some people would argue this is a symptom of true conversion.

"If you don't repent, you're gonna get a spanking, kid!!!! Don't say I didn't WARN you!!!!"

Again, a judgemental attitude towards those of us who prefer to see mercy extended to those who sin instead of being like the complainers in the parable of the workers in the Lords vineyard.

For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man [that is] an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard.

Mat 20:2 And when he had agreed with the labourers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard.

Mat 20:3 And he went out about the third hour, and saw others standing idle in the marketplace,

Mat 20:4 And said unto them; Go ye also into the vineyard, and whatsoever is right I will give you. And they went their way.

Mat 20:5 Again he went out about the sixth and ninth hour, and did likewise.

Mat 20:6 And about the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing idle, and saith unto them, Why stand ye here all the day idle?

Mat 20:7 They say unto him, Because no man hath hired us. He saith unto them, Go ye also into the vineyard; and whatsoever is right, [that] shall ye receive.

Mat 20:8 So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them [their] hire, beginning from the last unto the first.

Mat 20:9 And when they came that [were hired] about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny.

Mat 20:10 But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny.

Mat 20:11 And when they had received [it], they murmured against the goodman of the house,

Mat 20:12 Saying, These last have wrought [but] one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day.

Mat 20:13 But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny?

Mat 20:14 Take [that] thine [is], and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee.

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Some of us are more hard headed than others. Let's say after 472.9 eons I finally set aside my pride and cry out for forgiveness and divine help in all sincerity and humility. I recognize I didn't want it then- but I so desperately want it now. (this is actually a pattern that elder Maxwell called the "ebb and flow" of spirituality.) If the Atonement is Eternal and Infinite, why would a loving God not extend forgivness and nuture me into His presence?

I believe 472.8 eons was the cut-off -- so sorry. :P

Your question assumes God could do it.

For reasons we don't fully understand, He cannot do what you are asking.

In essence, He understands your question ... here is His FINAL answer .... YES He's sure, NO there's no loophole:

Alma 34: 33

33 And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.

Alma 41: 5

5 The one raised to happiness according to his desires of happiness, or good according to his desires of good; and the other to evil according to his desires of evil; for as he has desired to do evil all the day long even so shall he have his reward of evil when the night cometh.

We've ALREADY had 472.9 eons to get ready -- we are IN the FINAL EXAM -- RIGHT NOW.

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:P

because this life is the time to prepare to meet God and eventually it will be 'everlastingly to late' to repent.

<_<

But why? I don't know how many times I have to ask the question. When will the Atonement end? And if it has a shelf life, it wouldn't seem so infinite. So you have just put a time limit on the greatest act in all of universal history. Why?

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I believe 472.8 eons was the cut-off -- so sorry. :P

Your question assumes God could do it.

For reasons we don't fully understand, He cannot do what you are asking.

In essence, He understands your question ... here is His FINAL answer .... YES He's sure, NO there's no loophole:

Alma 34: 33

33 And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.

Alma 41: 5

5 The one raised to happiness according to his desires of happiness, or good according to his desires of good; and the other to evil according to his desires of evil; for as he has desired to do evil all the day long even so shall he have his reward of evil when the night cometh.

We've ALREADY had 472.9 eons to get ready -- we are IN the FINAL EXAM -- RIGHT NOW.

I believe the BoM is the word of God. I could word play this to death but I think your interpretation is right. But it still doesn't explain the Atonement, the D&C, and what I feel as a Father. If at some point a child of mine is ready to come home, even if it's after the deadline, then she will be coming home.

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I'm not worried about myself, I'm worried about my brothers and sisters who are having a hard time. This type of concern is evidenced in the great conversion of people like Enos, Alma the Younger, Abinidai etc.. Some people would argue this is a symptom of true conversion.

Again, a judgemental attitude towards those of us who prefer to see mercy extended to those who sin instead of being like the complainers in the parable of the workers in the Lords vineyard.

For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man [that is] an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard.

Mat 20:2 And when he had agreed with the labourers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard.

Mat 20:3 And he went out about the third hour, and saw others standing idle in the marketplace,

Mat 20:4 And said unto them; Go ye also into the vineyard, and whatsoever is right I will give you. And they went their way.

Mat 20:5 Again he went out about the sixth and ninth hour, and did likewise.

Mat 20:6 And about the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing idle, and saith unto them, Why stand ye here all the day idle?

Mat 20:7 They say unto him, Because no man hath hired us. He saith unto them, Go ye also into the vineyard; and whatsoever is right, [that] shall ye receive.

Mat 20:8 So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them [their] hire, beginning from the last unto the first.

Mat 20:9 And when they came that [were hired] about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny.

Mat 20:10 But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny.

Mat 20:11 And when they had received [it], they murmured against the goodman of the house,

Mat 20:12 Saying, These last have wrought [but] one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day.

Mat 20:13 But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny?

Mat 20:14 Take [that] thine [is], and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee.

The problem here is not that one worked 1 hour, 5 hours, or 10 hours -- but that the 10-hour guy held resentment for the 1 hour guy.

NONE of the laborers we're "needed" --- the Lord can do His own work. He doesn't "need" us. This mortal probation is for US -- not for His benefit. And in His wisdom -- He allots unto us differently, to serve His purposes - not all of which we totally understand in this life.

He's telling us "just work as hard as YOU are able -- don't jump to wrong conclusions because you look over at your neighbor"

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But why? I don't know how many times I have to ask the question. When will the Atonement end? And if it has a shelf life, it wouldn't seem so infinite. So you have just put a time limit on the greatest act in all of universal history. Why?

Because God said so. :P

Honestly, i don't know. I think this has a lot to do with trying to understand something that we are not capable of understanding yet.

For example-the Atonement is infinite, in that it applies to every person who has ever or will ever lived. BUT, just because Christ paid for their sins, does not mean that they are forgiven for them, right?

The sins are already paid for as Christ has already suffered for them-but yet, through processes that we dont' understand, these 'paid for' sins will need to be 'repaid' if a person rejects Christ completely.

That means the Atonement that was already applied infinitely to all-is really NOT applied to all. It's an infinite Atonement that is not applied infintitely to everyone. You've got to meet conditions in order to take advantage of the gift. Sounds confusing but that's just the way it's laid out.

The same confusion can occure when we think of the Eternalality (pretty sure that's not a word but you get what i mean) of the Atonement.

It can be eternal in nature while at the same time being very finite for those who reject it. How and why that is, i don't know-i only know that the scriptures teach it.

<_<

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I do not think there to be any progression between kingdoms. To me it seems that it is more like trying to be able to live an improper life and then get out of it in the end, rationalizing sin now by thinking you can jump from one place to the next.

"Of course, those who enter the telestial kingdom, and those who enter the terrestrial kingdom will have the eternal punishment which will come to them in knowing that they might, if they had kept the commandments of the Lord, have returned to his presence as his sons and his daughters. This will be a torment to them, and in that sense it will be hell." (Answers to Gospel Questions, 2:208-10)

"For he who is not able to abide the law of a celestial kingdom cannot abide a celestial glory. And he who cannot abide the law of a terrestrial kingdom cannot abide a terrestrial glory. And he who cannot abide the law of a telestial kingdom cannot abide a telestial glory; therefore he is not meet for a kingdom of glory. Therefore he must abide a kingdom which is not a kingdom of glory." (D&C 88:22-24)

D&c 76:

108 Then shall he be acrowned with the crown of his glory, to sit on the bthrone of his power to reign forever and ever.

109 But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as ainnumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore;

110 And heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall aconfess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever;

111 For they shall be judged according to their aworks, and every man shall receive according to his own bworks, his own cdominion, in the dmansions which are prepared;

112 And they shall be aservants of the Most High; but bwhere God and Christ cdwell they dcannot come, eworlds without end.

and 86 These are they who receive not of his fulness in the eternal world, but of the Holy Spirit through the ministration of the terrestrial;

87 And the terrestrial through the aministration of the celestial.

88 And also the telestial receive it of the administering of angels who are appointed to minister for them, or who are appointed to be aministering spirits for them; for they shall be bheirs of salvation.

D&C 132

16 Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in amarriage; but are appointed angels in bheaven, which angels are ministering cservants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.

17 For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are aangels of God forever and ever.

Here is what Joseph Fielding Smith in The Doctrines of Salvation:

"Outside the celestial kingdom there is no family unit. That organization is reserved for those willing to abide in every covenant and every obligation which we are called upon to receive while we sojurn here in this mortal life(p. 67)

...children left without one and maybe without both parents, to be taken perhaps through the mercy of the Almighty into some other faithful family, to be adopted in such a family to be theirs through all eternity...(p. 83) All children born in the covenant belong to their parents in eternity but that does not mean that they, because of that birthright, will inherit celestial glory. The faith and the faithfulness of fathers and mothers will not save disobedient children. Salvation is an individual matter, and if a person who has been born in the covenant rebels and denies the Lord, he will lose the blessings of exaltation.

But children born in the covenant, who drift away, are still the children of their parents; and the parents have a claim upon them; and if the children have not sinned away all their rights, the parents may be able to bring them through repentance, into the celestial kingdom, but not to receive the exaltation.

When a man and a women are married in the temple for time and all eternity and then separate, the children will go with the parent who is justified and who has kept the commandments. If neither of them has kept his covenants, the children may be taken away from both of them and given to somebody else, and that would be by virtue of being born in the covenant.

A child is not to be sealed the second time when born in the covenant, but by virtue of that birthright can be transferred. (p. 91-92)

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I do not think there to be any progression between kingdoms. To me it seems that it is more like trying to be able to live an improper life and then get out of it in the end, rationalizing sin now by thinking you can jump from one place to the next.
Which would explain why, if such a thing were possible, such a doctrine would not be emphasized or even revealed explicitly (see D&C 76:45 for information being withheld).
But children born in the covenant, who drift away, are still the children of their parents; and the parents have a claim upon them; and if the children have not sinned away all their rights, the parents may be able to bring them through repentance, into the celestial kingdom, but not to receive the exaltation.
Presumably Joseph Fielding Smith is limiting this opportunity of repentance to the period prior to final judgment or it would contradict the idea of no kingdom hopping.

Which still leaves open the question of why repentance is limited in time frame?

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But why? I don't know how many times I have to ask the question. When will the Atonement end? And if it has a shelf life, it wouldn't seem so infinite. So you have just put a time limit on the greatest act in all of universal history. Why?

I believe the BoM is the word of God. I could word play this to death but I think your interpretation is right. But it still doesn't explain the Atonement, the D&C, and what I feel as a Father. If at some point a child of mine is ready to come home, even if it's after the deadline, then she will be coming home.

I really do believe I understand what you are asking. Why does it ever have to be "too late" ???

I get that - I really do. You want a God whose mercy knows no limits as far as time.

========================

Now, the Atonement is infinite -- that is true.

Some aspects of the Atonement are universal. They happen regardless of how we've behaved. The Resurrection is GOING to happen for each us, whether Prophet or Street Pimp. We will live forever - gauranteed. It is a gift with no strings attached! It has no shelf-life and no revocation.

Some aspects of the Atonement are NOT universal. The power of the Atonement that brings us BACK into the presence of God, justified and sanctified through Christ's merits .... THAT application of the Atonement's power does have strings and it DOES have a certain period of time for which it is available to you and I. That much God has made clear. You just have to accept it. The sooner you accept it the better-off you'll be. You'll stop wasting time worrying about second-chances, third-chances ... N-chances -- and instead you'll get to work doing that which Christ asks of you.

Now, when I say "you" - I mean "you" ALL OF YOU -- you, me, everybody. I am not singling you out, Lamanite.....sheesh....I don't even know who you are!!!!

You speak of Christ and His mercy.

Surely you know JUST HOW WELL HE KNOWS US.

You know how well He knows our desires.....how well He knows our hearts.

The scenario you describe suggests that He made a mistake in assigning you to a lower Kingdom. That He didn't know that 472.9 eons later you WOULD have changed your mind and repented.

His knowledge of you, and your deepest heart and desires ... not only what you have desired -- for all ages of time BEFORE this earth ... but also what you WILL desire ... for all ages of time AFTER this probation is over -- His knowledge of you is perfect. He will judge you based on that eternity you speak of. Nothing will be overlooked -- including your supposed "change of heart" 472.9 eons from now.

That is what I am / have been / trying to explain -- He is saying, in effect:

"THIS LIFE is the time appointed unto you BY ME, YOUR SAVIOR -- to SHOW ME what you desire. I am sorry ... but 472.9 eons from now IS too late. I cannot accept your repentance then. NOW is the time for that."

I think we underestimate what an EFFECTIVE and DIVINE and INSPIRED mortal probation this is.

I think that this probation IS designed with care. I think it MUST be the most effective way for God to show US what we truly DESIRE and WOULD HAVE DESIRED for all ages of time.

We WILL be assigned to a Kingdom where WE will be happiest for time and all eternity.

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Because God said so. :P

I can actually accept this answer if that the best we have.

For example-the Atonement is infinite, in that it applies to every person who has ever or will ever lived. BUT, just because Christ paid for their sins, does not mean that they are forgiven for them, right?

Correct.

The sins are already paid for as Christ has already suffered for them-but yet, through processes that we dont' understand, these 'paid for' sins will need to be 'repaid' if a person rejects Christ completely.

Not repaid. But because justice was not satisfied, and they reject Christs' offering they must perform the work themselves.

That means the Atonement that was already applied infinitely to all-is really NOT applied to all.

Wrong. It's just not accepted by all.

It can be eternal in nature while at the same time being very finite for those who reject it. How and why that is, i don't know-i only know that the scriptures teach it.

<_<

Not to sound condescending but if you cannot find it scripturally then you've got no foundation. This is why our canon of scripture is exactly is used to "measure", canon=measure.

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