D&c 19:16-17

[Zoidberg]

Let me just say my view has no scriptural basis, but a phylosophical one. Or fairy-tale one, whatever . All of it is speculation and interpretation, from beginning to end. Anyway, I think I side with C.S. Lewis on his view of eternal damnation expressed in The Last Battle. Those who refuse to be saved do not actually conciously say "no, I do not want to be atoned for and inherit Godhood". They simply do not see that offer, even though it may be right in front of them. I don't think free agency ceases to exist at any point, so some people may simply choose (not conciously) to not even realize what the Atonement could do for them. I think it can be illustrated in this life by people who are completely unable to see another's point of view and how it could be valid, given certain assumptions. For instance, there is no way to prove that God exists. It makes me sad that missionaries still go around naively saying "Look at the world around you. It's a definite proof of the existence of God." No it's not! Anything that some people hold as divine manifestations can be alternatively explained. Visions? You were hallucinating. Sudden darkness? Solar eclipse. A supernatural object? The aliens dropped it off or it's a government experiment. Holy Ghost? Your own feelings, etc.

Paul does a good job of explaining faith, like Heb. 11:1: "faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen". So if I hope for something, my faith in it becomes an evidence to me . It is actually very well documented in science as the placebo effect. By believeing in something we can actually transform our own subjective reality. Christ often spoke of the necessity of faith while performing His miracles, and didn't perform any miracles in His hometown because people there didn't have enough faith in Him? Notice I'm not suggesting that the healings and other miracles only took place because of the placebo effect (the sick believed in Jesus so much they healed themselves, and the rest was mind tricks), or that He begrudged the unbelievers a chance to heal etc. I think that perhaps the people that knew Him as a carpenter had such a firm faith that He was just a regular nobody with no supernatural abilities whatsoever that they wouldn't have even perceived the miracles.

So what I'm saying is that what theists often describe as unbelief actually IS belief. I believe there is a God because I perceive the world in a way that suggests to me that it's true. Other people believe in the absense of God (whether absolute or unless proved otherwise) because they rely on the scientific method, the Occam's razor and, most importantly, because they accept the existence of objective reality as an absolute truth. Not to mention the existence of absolute truth, as well. So we all operate from certain axiomatic assumptions. If our axiomatic assumptions are destroyed the universe we are used to perceiving collapses like a house of cards. So not many people are willing to consider or even realize the possibility of getting rid of those axiomatic assumptions. And since we all have free agency (now I'm back to the LDS perspective), God will not take away those assumptions from an unwilling person. So I imagine that people might actually go through the eternities without ever realizing they're in a certain kingdom of glory and that there is actually a God. I know that at face value it seems to contradict a lot of things, but even if all is revealed to us and our memory of the pre-existence is restored, who's to say that everybody will be able to partake of that knowledge and recognize that memory as valid? Why is there going to be a war with Satan in the Millennium, even though we are told in advance that Satan's going to lose? Do you think he realizes that and will still attempt to start this war? Or does he think that he actually has a shot? I would say the latter. Of course, this does not answer the question of whether or not there can be progression between the kingdoms, but I think it provides an a lot more merciful perspective of a God that gives His children agency to see things according to their desires instead of a vengeful God who begrudges His children blessings because they "failed the test" once, and that's it, too late; or a weak, non-omnipotent God who is bound by some laws He has no power over, whether He would like to change them or not.

As for Elder McConkie, he said a lot of things... He explicitly stated that he took full responsibility for the content of the Mormon Doctrine, and some of his statements he told everyone to outright forget later.

I do have a problem with Joseph Fielding Smith saying there will be eternal punishment and remorse in the lower kingdoms and it will be hell in this sense. I actually do not believe that, given my position above. That would mean tha the inhabitants of the lower kingdoms fully realize the truth and what they should have done and how, but are powerless to do anything anymore. That is true hell, with no possibility of complete repentance, ever. So I think that people in the lower kingdoms will either never realize that they could have done better (even though they might not be completely satisfied with their conditions, they will not see any merit in trying to get exalted, if they even realize what exaltation is), or, once they realize that and repent, an opportunity will be offered to them to progress between the kingdoms. Or perhaps both. Now please don't let's start accusing me of preachine false doctrine. 1. I'm not preaching to anyone. 2. I do not claim any of this to be doctrine (this word comes from lating "doctrina", which means "teaching" or "instruction", and i'm not teaching or instructing anyone, but simply stating my opinion)

[Lamanite]

Hell is remedial, not retribution. Our sins and the nature of our resurrection determine where we can go and what we can do. Christ suffered for Adam's transgression, which brought death into the world. Thus, no man will have to suffer the effects of physical death. But Christ's atonement was twofold. He also died for our sins if we will repent, believe in His name and keep His commandments.

Those who lived telestial lives will suffer the torments of hell until they have paid the utmost farthing. When they emerge from hell, they will be holy beings; however, they will be resurrected to a telestial glory. This means that they will have perfected, glorified bodies, but will forever be suited to a telestial order. The Lord says that they will never be able to be with the celestial beings, nor will they be able to endure their glory.

Now the Lord says that where these celestial beings dwell, they, the telestial beings, can not come, worlds without end. But whether they can go from glory to glory over a very long time is still unknown. I would think that if it were possible, that path is certainly one we wouldn't take if we could help it. As it stands, while telestial beings are capable of eternal progression, they'll never be able to change the physical limitations of their bodies. Celestial beings will dwell with the Father in eternal family units; the terrestrial beings will be ministered unto by those in the Celestial Kingdom, and the telestial beings will be ministered to by terrerestial beings.

sounds nice. do you have scriptural support or any other document that has been canonized by the church to support these statements? Any other ref's are subject to the "that was just his opinion, it's not doctrine" argument.

Speculating, I would say that celestial and terrestrial beings are capable of seeing and comprehending many wonderful things beyond the understanding of those in the telestial kingdom. They can probably transport themselves instantly by thought; however, I suspect the telestial beings may need to devise external conveyances. And while celestial beings will be involved in the creation of other worlds, and terrestrial beings will be able to minister to those worlds, I think the capabilities of those in the telestial kindom also will be expanded. They'll be able to do card tricks and amaze each other with mind control tricks like that guy Derren Brown on the Sci-Fi Channel. They'll also be able to make coins appear from behind each other's ears and that sort of thing. After a few years of wowing each other, I suspect they'll write books accusing Mormon apologists of tricking them into not joining the church and well, you get the picture.

Trifle not with sacred things. Flippant and unproductive.

[Rob Osborn]

To clarify, there seems to be a tradition in LDS thought that somehow living a Telestial law brings them to a telestial kingdom where telestial law is wickedness. This is in gross error! Living a lawless way does not bring telestial blessings. living in wickedness brings upon one damnation in hell, period! Telestial obedience can best be described as living the law the Lord has given us here in the Telestial world. If we are obedient to these laws we reap the blessings of them which are the companionship and gifts of the holy ghost.

One of the more interesting aspects of Telestial law is that it is actually, in it's wholeness, part of a greater law- namely the Celestial law. All of gods laws are spiritual. None of gods laws are carnal. So if God creates a Telestial kingdom for us to dwell in then he also has a law for that kingdom. I believe that law of the Telestial kingdom for the most part is obedience to the preparatory gospel- that of repentance and baptism.