Jesus Not Joseph

[LifeOnaPlate]

Cute bears.

[Bsix]

It is funny that aaronshaf should sarcastically note that he is feeling our love (frustration). I can speak from personal experience that I sure don't feel the love from traditional Christians when the behave as aaronshaf does. I remember when my family had to pass through a gaunlet of aaronshaf's fellow 'Christians' to get into the Conference Center. I remember them screaming through bullhorns. I remember one of them quite literally got in the face of my child and shouted to them that they were "liars." It was very frightening for my kids.

Given that we have seen the video of aaronshaf's witnessing style. (the sort of non-stop shout-till-you-foam rants) it is little wonder that people get flustered when dealing with antiMormons. It is not a suprise to me that playing a game of aggressive antiMormon 'gotcha' is going to result in the sort of exchange that aaronshaf describes to his advantage. I'd be very interested in hearing the point of view from the LDS couple whom aaronshaf ambushed.

I asked my wife, who is not an LDS theologian what she thought of Jesus' preexistence and role. She fully understands the LDS view of how Jesus became our Lord and Savior. When I asked her if she thought most people knew, she made a very interesting observation. She noted that people approach their religion in different ways...some are theologians...some are feelers...some skim along the surface...some are doers...some focus on serving. She declared that being a Mormon does not require an intimate knowledge of every doctrinal nuance. Of course that is true of Mormonism and traditional Christianity.

I can't tell you how many traditional Christians I met that hadn't a clue about the doctrine of the trinity. Most traditional Christians I met on my mission in New York City verbalized the trinity as one-God-in-three-persons...but conceptualized it as three completely separate Gods that were somehow one. Or in other words, the LDS model.

Causing Mormons to stumble on details of LDS theology when ambushed is not something to boast about.

Regards,

Six

[aaronshaf]

First, if you're going to associate me with the normal General Conference "screechers" (as James White calls them), and if you're going to hang onto the silly foam-at-the-mouth imagery, then you're operating off a caricature that you apparently think you need to make a point that you otherwise couldn't make.

Secondly, if you think I was simply trying to stump a Mormon over LDS doctrine, then you're missing the point. This man knew exactly what I was referring to and he wasn't at first willing to be forthright and explicit about the LDS teaching, especially in front of his wife who didn't know about it.

[LifeOnaPlate]

Given the obscene way you tend to present Mormon doctrine as you understand it, the behavior of the husband (which I think is your personal view of it, Fawn Brodie and Martha Nibley Beck style) isn't shocking or surprising. I have witnessed your rants firsthand and myself was put off by the choice of language in misrepresenting our doctrines. You are one of the screechers, Aaron. I saw and heard. Your shrill shouting was rattling and obnoxious and disrespectful at the Manti pageant. You were the only preacher at the pageant that night screaming at the top of your lungs. The others were talking to people, holding their signs, etc. You shouted louder and longer than the familiar conference-attending Lonnie the preacher.

The way you split hairs, present double standards, and attempt to dig a pit and lay a snare garners the reaction you receive; not the "truth" of your message. You do shout ceaselessly, you did project white, foamy spittle from your mouth (at least as much as the husband from your account was sweating, I'm sure,) I saw and heard you in person, Agent Sharvaloff.

Here's an example I created.

A Mormon might say "Joseph Smith was given the gold plates by the Angel Moroni."

Shafavoloff would say: "Joe Smith saw the devil as an angel of light, and said he gave him a solid gold bible!"

A Mormon might say "We can become like our Heavenly Father; as His children we have divine potential.

Shafavoloff might say "MORMONS THINK THEY BECOME GODS! THEY THINK TO BE GREATER THAN GOD! THAT IS THE LIE SATAN TOLD IN THE GARDEN OF EDEN!!!"

The way you paint the picture of doctrine is what gives you the response you receive. Not the truth behind your words, but the crass way in which they are presented.

Parenthetically, if this couple was coming from the Temple I see no reason why the wife would not know the Church's teachings on the subject of Christ's divinity prior to his mortal ministry. Perhaps the way they were presented or explained by you were alien to her, and likely her husband as well.

[auteur55]

This man knew exactly what I was referring to and he wasn't at first willing to be forthright and explicit about the LDS teaching, especially in front of his wife who didn't know about it.

If the man understood it why would he not be forthcoming? You paint a picture that he was trying to hide something from his wife and you. That there was a great secret that Mormons are not forthcoming about. I would hope that even you know that this isn't true.

What you did Aaron was try to trip up a man in front of his wife after they left the temple by asking a complicated question. He wasn't quite sure how to articulate the belief in front of his wife whom he was afraid would think him foolish for allowing a young, confrontational kid trip him up. No one likes to appear unknowledgable in front of their wife. The man hesitated because he thought you would pounce on him if he answered incorrectly.

You see no one is as smart as the Savior. When the scribes and pharisees presented him with carefully articulated questions designed to trip them up he beat them at their own game (namely by refusing to play their game or as an opportunity to teach them about their own hypocrisys).

Basically your preying on human weakness and trying to humilate a man in front of his wife. That you would even try to justify this speaks volumes. I have met many in your own faith that have difficulty articulating the nature of the Godhead. This says practically nothing about them nor their faith.

[LifeOnaPlate]

Agent Shafavoloff's "Pharisee" method of laying a snare and digging a pit is enlightening.

Agent Shafavaloff only sticks around on the board in discussions dealing with his "ministry." In matters doctrinal he throws a few links to his wiki never to return and respond to any counter-arguments.

Auteur: He not only tries to justify it; but tries to glory in it.

[ERMD]

I invite you all to join me in condemning these two statements:

"He is the Firstborn of the Father. By obedience and devotion to the truth he attained that pinnacle of intelligence which ranked him as a God, as the Lord Omnipotent, while yet in his pre-existent state." - Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 1966, pg. 129

"We believe, and I certify that Jesus Christ is the Firstborn Spirit Child of Elohim who is God, our Heavenly Father. We believe that while he lived in the pre-existent world, by virtue of his superior intelligence, progression, and obedience, he attained unto the station of a God. And he then became, under the Father, the Creator of this world and all things that are in it, as also the Creator of worlds without number." - Bruce R. Mcconkie, Conference Report, October 1948, First Dayâ??Morning Meeting. Available online here.

The thing is, your OP stated the LDS doctrine teaches "Jesus had to become a god in the pre-existence".

Your references do not state this.

Critical reading must not be your strong point.

[MorningStar]

First, if you're going to associate me with the normal General Conference "screechers" (as James White calls them), and if you're going to hang onto the silly foam-at-the-mouth imagery, then you're operating off a caricature that you apparently think you need to make a point that you otherwise couldn't make.

Secondly, if you think I was simply trying to stump a Mormon over LDS doctrine, then you're missing the point. This man knew exactly what I was referring to and he wasn't at first willing to be forthright and explicit about the LDS teaching, especially in front of his wife who didn't know about it.

I think you should talk to our missionaries and get baptized.

[aaronshaf]

auteur55, you weren't there. I was. The man lied by at first saying that Christ had eternally been fully God and there never was a point where he in the pre-existence had to become a god. I call that lying for the Lord. I really believe that MOrmonism fosters a culture of little Gordon B. Hincklies, of lying to protect the image of the Church. Mormon Ryan Wimmer compared this to "Taqiyah" of Shiâ??a Muslims.

Then he changed his tune and started sweating. Then his wife acted with bewilderment.

LifeOnaPlate, apparently you see what you want to see, and hear what you want to hear, and then describe it with a degree of exaggeration that makes you feel comfortable demonizing a critic.

[charity]

Oh, I can feel the looooooooove.

At least over here, you haven't been called a liar and a hypocrite for stating your beliefs as I was at the last place we engaged in a dialogue together.

[Bsix]

First, if you're going to associate me with the normal General Conference "screechers" (as James White calls them), and if you're going to hang onto the silly foam-at-the-mouth imagery, then you're operating off a caricature that you apparently think you need to make a point that you otherwise couldn't make.

I watched the video of you--the shouting, the posturing, the non-stop verbal barrage to the point of having to wipe away the spittle from your mouth. Believe me, the manner in which you interact with Mormons has been documented; and fits well within the catagory of of the "screechers."

Secondly, if you think I was simply trying to stump a Mormon over LDS doctrine, then you're missing the point. This man knew exactly what I was referring to and he wasn't at first willing to be forthright and explicit about the LDS teaching, especially in front of his wife who didn't know about it.

Six: We only have your account of the event. Please excuse me if I do not trust your version.

I have witnessed how screechers confront Mormons, ask baited questions and then twist the answers. Trying to stump Mormons concerning their beliefs is the stock and trade of antiMormons -- not just the screechers. As I said, I'd be very interested in hearing the LDS couple's side of the story. I suspect that it would be described in a manner quite different from your account. As I recall, there have been complaints that the your ministry was involved in dialoging with a BYU professor and then deliberately twisting and misrepresenting his words.

It is not my intention to make this personal, but I simply do not trust the accuracy of how you describe your interaction with Latter Day Saints.

Now onto a related question. It is a request I have made of you before...and you have refused to answer. Please tell us what traditional Church and denomination you are affiliated with. Do you consider yourself to be an Evangelical? Do you consider yourself and the organizations you are affiliated with to be extremists...or mainstream within the body of Evangelical and traditional Christianity. Where does the funding for the network of antiMormon ministries come from -- extremist elements within traditional Evangleicalism...or from the mainstream?

Last time I and other made this request, you disappeared from the discussion.

Regards,

Six

[aaronshaf]

Bsix, why not post the video link with your words?

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3...92661&hl=en

I guess if someone doesn't have a serene, tranquil conversation at any point in time, and if they instead choose to publicly proclaim something in the streets with passion, they're worthy of your demonization?

I'm an evangelical and I have a full-time job doing web development.

[Bsix]

I'll repeat my questions:

1. Please tell us what traditional Church and denomination you are affiliated with.

2. Do you consider yourself to be an Evangelical?

3. Do you consider yourself and the organizations you are affiliated with to be extremists...or mainstream within the body of Evangelical and traditional Christianity?

4. Where does the funding for the network of antiMormon ministries come from -- extremist elements within traditional Evangleicalism...or from the mainstream?

The reason I ask has less to do with aaronshaf personally than it seems on the surface. There are any number of Evangelicals on this message board that tell us that folks that protest outside LDS events, do street preaching in the manner that aaronshaf does, and the antiMormon ministries that aaronshaf associates with are extremist elements and are not mainstream Evangelical believers. I am trying to get a sense of if that is true.

Regards,

Six

[urroner]

Bsix, why not post the video link with your words?

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3...92661&hl=en

I guess if someone doesn't have a serene, tranquil conversation at any point in time, and if they instead choose to publicly proclaim something in the streets with passion, they're worthy of your demonization?

I'm an evangelical and I have a full-time job doing web development.

So Aaron, why don't you clean your own house first or does being a bloviating twit more to your liking?

[Legalbryan]

When I read about people whe engage in these kind of activities, I can't help but think of two scriptural references. First, "He that hath the spirit of contention is not of me, but of the devil, who is the father of contention." 3 Ne. 11:29. While I appreciate that some are "concerned" for our souls and salvation, this type of witnessing has no place in a Christ centered existence, particularly as a husband and wife are trying to have a spiritual experience.

Second, as the New Testement says several times "by their fruits you shall know them." Trying to make a husband look foolish in front of his wife, purposly twisting words and cherry picking statments/little understood doctrine and screaming at children and singling them out to make them feel bad shows me the "fruits" of this labor. Consequently, I'd judge those who engage in such acts accordingly. I have much more respect for JWs or others who will rationally engage me in intellegent discussion about religion.

[Bernard Gui]

I guess if someone doesn't have a serene, tranquil conversation at any point in time, and if they instead choose to publicly proclaim something in the streets with passion, they're worthy of your demonization?

"God kicked butt in Egypt?" My oh my.

How does killing all the firstborn sons in Egypt show the world

that he is an awesome God?

Bernard

[MJNSW]

What I truly do not understand about this thread is why some people holding some signs outside petitioning their point of view is such a big thing that even some of you expressed your desire to flatten them! Ummmmmm.... why is that when you send your 19 year old boys and retired old couples to knock on the publics doors to do the very exact same thing as those standing outside the temple.

The missionaries are even more invasive by knocking on the doors - to share their message. Common... this is quite a childish thread. Why is it that LDS can do what they have to do to spread their message (the message that they understand from GOD) and someone else who has a completely different view on God and his message is not allowed to hold a sign with 2 other companions outside a temple in hope that someone might understand what he is saying.

Just does not seem right! Really, Grow up people! Do you really think that this behavior is going to bring people to Christ?

[Legalbryan]

How does killing all the firstborn sons in Egypt show the world

that he is an awesome God?

Bernard

That's pretty awesome.

[auteur55]

What I truly do not understand about this thread is why some people holding some signs outside petitioning their point of view is such a big thing that even some of you expressed your desire to flatten them! Ummmmmm.... why is that when you send your 19 year old boys and retired old couples to knock on the publics doors to do the very exact same thing as those standing outside the temple.

The missionaries are even more invasive by knocking on the doors - to share their message. Common... this is quite a childish thread. Why is it that LDS can do what they have to do to spread their message (the message that they understand from GOD) and someone else who has a completely different view on God and his message is not allowed to hold a sign with 2 other companions outside a temple in hope that someone might understand what he is saying.

Just does not seem right! Really, Grow up people! Do you really think that this behavior is going to bring people to Christ?

If you can't see the difference between what missionaries do and what Aaron does then that is your own defect. To most it will be glaringly obvious.

I don't know what religious affiliation you are but I assume you have very little stock in either side which is reflected in your post. I see little reason for anyone on this thread to allow you to be the moral compass and take your chastening to heart. I too don't like it when an LDS poster's only substance on a post is to call someone a "twit" as I would hope we are better than that. Unfortunately, concering Aaron's confrontational attacks, I can see why some have difficulty doing it.

[ERMD]

"God kicked butt in Egypt?" My oh my.

How does killing all the firstborn sons in Egypt show the world

that he is an awesome God?

Bernard

Maybe aaron wants him to kick LDS butt in the same way. By so doing, he would get our attention and have us turn from our evil, misguided, lying for the Lord ways.

The end justifies the means afterall, right?

[MJNSW]

If you can't see the difference between what missionaries do and what Aaron does then that is your own defect. To most it will be glaringly obvious.

I don't know what religious affiliation you are but I assume you have very little stock in either side which is reflected in your post. I see little reason for anyone on this thread to allow you to be the moral compass and take your chastening to heart. I too don't like it when an LDS poster's only substance on a post is to call someone a "twit" as I would hope we are better than that. Unfortunately, concering Aaron's confrontational attacks, I can see why some have difficulty doing it.

For your information I am a born and raised LDS - Born in SLC - Married in the Manti Temple and am the mother of 4.5 children.

I do have the right to state my opinion. I have a brother on a mission and my grandparents and grandparents in laws have served missions for the church.

I understand the ins and outs of the church, and I am not putting down missionary work. I am simply stating that it is ridiculous that a group of grownups would get all huffed and puffed because someone wants to express their own point of view. Last I knew we were in America and had the right to do that. Is this Aaron person hitting you or spewing profanities? NO... so leave him alone or ignore him and he might just go away. Oh, and he might not... but seriously... are you in High School and need to beat the pulp out of a person whose views do not coincide with your own?

[ERMD]

What I truly do not understand about this thread is why some people holding some signs outside petitioning their point of view is such a big thing that even some of you expressed your desire to flatten them! Ummmmmm.... why is that when you send your 19 year old boys and retired old couples to knock on the publics doors to do the very exact same thing as those standing outside the temple.

The missionaries are even more invasive by knocking on the doors - to share their message. Common... this is quite a childish thread. Why is it that LDS can do what they have to do to spread their message (the message that they understand from GOD) and someone else who has a completely different view on God and his message is not allowed to hold a sign with 2 other companions outside a temple in hope that someone might understand what he is saying.

Just does not seem right! Really, Grow up people! Do you really think that this behavior is going to bring people to Christ?

Go to the FAIR website, watch the videos of the conference protesters (or watch aaron himself on the link he provided), and then come back and say with all honesty that it is comparable to or LESS invasive than what LDS missionaries do.

Until you are able to do so, you have no credibility with respect to this topic.

[Legalbryan]

The missionaries are even more invasive by knocking on the doors - to share their message. Common... this is quite a childish thread. Why is it that LDS can do what they have to do to spread their message (the message that they understand from GOD) and someone else who has a completely different view on God and his message is not allowed to hold a sign with 2 other companions outside a temple in hope that someone might understand what he is saying.

Except LDS missionaries knock on the door and very politely ask people if they would like to learn more about God. When told no, they wish them a blessed day and move on. Intrusive? Maybe. Alhtough I would probably lean more to annoying. There is such a glaring contrast to the way Aaron and other like-minded folks work, I'm startled that I even need point it out.

[Pahoran]

I invite you all to join me in condemning these two statements:

Sorry Aaron, but I don't follow false prophets.

auteur55, you weren't there. I was.

Unfortunately, your track record of wilfully misrepresenting LDS life and teaching--and suppressing unwelcome truths--gives us no confidence in your ability to accurately describe what happened.

The man lied by at first saying that Christ had eternally been fully God and there never was a point where he in the pre-existence had to become a god. I call that lying for the Lord.

Isn't that your M.O. Aaron?

Or do you tell your falsehoods for someone else?

I really believe that MOrmonism fosters a culture of little Gordon B. Hincklies, of lying to protect the image of the Church.

There is no evidence that President Hinckley has ever engaged in "lying to protect the image of the Church," but that doesn't stop false accusers like you from chanting this deceitful, hate-based mantra.

And for the record, to become"little Gordon B. Hinkleys"--i.e. modelling ourselves after a great man of real and unquestioned integrity--is infinitely preferable to becoming little Aaron Shafs. For one thing, President Hinckley is not a vile, deceitful little hater. For another, he is a genuine Christian.

Mormon Ryan Wimmer compared this to "Taqiyah" of Shiâ??a Muslims.

One would like to know what expertise "Mormon Ryan Wimmer" claims to have in Shi'a Islam, but in any event your use of the "Mormon" label would appear to be at least a coy one. A quick Google search turned up his name as the writer of a highly glowing review of a Dan Vogel book on Amazon.

Hmmm, I wonder where his real sympathies lie?

Then he changed his tune and started sweating. Then his wife acted with bewilderment.

I don't doubt that she was bewildered. Good people often find it hard to understand why haters do what they do.

Your glee at the prospect of your having created marital conflict shows you to be one who rejoices in iniquity.

Regards,

Pahoran

[MJNSW]

Go to the FAIR website, watch the videos of the conference protesters (or watch aaron himself on the link he provided), and then come back and say with all honesty that it is comparable to or LESS invasive than what LDS missionaries do.

Until you are able to do so, you have no credibility with respect to this topic.

Do you think I have not been to temple square of even to the Manti pageant? (Many times) Do you think I am not aware of how Aaron acts? (yes) Do I care about how he acts? (no... I am more concerned with my own actions)

Why do the words coming out of his mouth affect you so much? Are you that insecure with yourself, your belief, or the gospel you represent that you cannot let it stand up on its own without attacking this poor soul?

You don't think that he will disappear if you ignore him? Are you so afraid that the church will crumble and fall because this boy voices his thoughts and opinions?

I have been to the website... I have walked through the crowds and witnessed the demonstrations mult. times! But I do have enough security in what I teach my children, in myself, and in my beliefs that I don't go wishing that I can flatten a person. I also have enough security that I don't feel the need to create or feed fuel to the contention.

I just thought that you might be grown up enough to realize what you are doing to... but that might have been my error in judgement..