Jesus Not Joseph

[grego]

Maybe we should start a "Jesus Not Paul," "Jesus, Not Your Preacher", or a "Jesus Not Nobody Else Including Those People Who Wrote The Books In the Bible, Especially That Isaiah Dude Because He Wrote Such A Frickin' Long Book And That John The Revelator Guy Because Nobody Can Understand That Last Book In The Bible, What Was He Smoking At The Time" campaign and stand next to their group in their protestations and make their loads so much lighter.

[LifeOnaPlate]

LifeOnAPlate, you should really set the Correlation Committee straight.

Wow, I guess you missed the fact that I called it a misnomer sometimes used.

Come on, Aaron. If you can't accurately analyze my one paragraph, how can we expect you to circumscribe all doctrines Mormon in an accurate way?

See you in another 3 weeks when you show up on some other random thread, throw a few comments in, link to your wiki, and slink off yet again without engaging in any actual conversation.

[auteur55]

The wife of one couple I talked to didn't realize her Mormon religion taught that Jesus had to become a god in the pre-existence. The husband at first denied it, but then affirmed it, and ... man was he sweating with embarrassment. His wife looked bewildered and astonished. I felt sorry for the wife, but I was glad that her conscience was alive.

Aaron I find it sad, that even though you read the Bible profusely, that you can't see how well your actions parallel the scribes and pharisees. There are things difficult to articulate in every religion and yet you lay traps and snares and try to trip people up. You should be ashamed of yourself for trying to humiliate a husband in front of his wife.

And you say he tried to deny it as though he was hiding something. Pathetic.

[Zakuska]

LifeOnAPlate, you should really set the Correlation Committee straight.

I still fail to see anything about Christ "becoming a God" in the pre-earth life.

[LifeOnaPlate]

Aaron Shaf is amazingly ignorant of LDS theology for claiming to have studied it so much. Auter: don't be shocked. Shaf and his cronies advocate separating children from groups to individually ridicule and attack their beliefs one on one.

[aaronshaf]

I invite you all to join me in condemning these two statements:

"He is the Firstborn of the Father. By obedience and devotion to the truth he attained that pinnacle of intelligence which ranked him as a God, as the Lord Omnipotent, while yet in his pre-existent state." - Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 1966, pg. 129

"We believe, and I certify that Jesus Christ is the Firstborn Spirit Child of Elohim who is God, our Heavenly Father. We believe that while he lived in the pre-existent world, by virtue of his superior intelligence, progression, and obedience, he attained unto the station of a God. And he then became, under the Father, the Creator of this world and all things that are in it, as also the Creator of worlds without number." - Bruce R. Mcconkie, Conference Report, October 1948, First Dayâ??Morning Meeting. Available online here.

[auteur55]

Auter: don't be shocked. Shaf and his cronies advocate separating children from groups to individually ridicule and attack their beliefs one on one

It's a sad existence. Aaron does not look at peace in any picture i've seen of him. I sincerely hope one day he comes to peace with whatever it is that's bothering him and realizes that his enemy is not the Mormon church.

[aaronshaf]

Hah, that's because your LDS friends pick and choose their pictures.

"During his pre-mortal life Jesus Christ rose to the status of Godhood." - Milton R. Hunter, Conference Report, October 1949, Second Day�Morning Meeting. Available online here.

And don't forget the obvious: Before Jesus Christ was literally begotten by Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother he certainly wasn't a "God" like he was right before the incarnation.

[aaronshaf]

"Now the Creeds say that God has always been God. But this well-motivated expression of reverence is a solemn travesty. The truth is infinitely more inspiring: that God Himself became God (whose power now extends in and through all things) by the mastery of the same ultimate and unchanging conditions to which you and I are subject. So, likewise, did His Firstborn Son, Jesus the Christ." - Truman G. Madsen (BYU professor), Eternal Man, p.56

Man, can you believe guys like this? This BYU professor obviously doesn't know Mormon doctrine at all! He must have just made this up, because it obviously came from nowhere but his imagination.

[John D the First]

I find it interesting that some think fine points of theology save people from an eternal hell. It requires that you almost have to be a "scribe" and/or "learned" to escape the fiery flames. I have spent some time studying ethnographies of many illiterate societies around the world that Christian missionaries worked so hard to convert. They are â??Christianâ?, but are anything but orthodox; they may be more unorthodox from a traditional Christian perspective than even Mormons. So I think the only one's who can really be saved if "orthodoxy" is required are people with a western education. I would say, those from the Midwest (except Utah), and the southern states, are probably the most likely to be saved.

In Jesus teachings I see no interest in Orthodoxy, and no attempt to lay it out. It seems Jesus left something very important to our salvation out of His teachings. He actually seems most interested in Ortho-praxis, most particularly the state of the heart. Maybe there is some hope for Christian Spirit mediums in the Philippines and ancestor worshiping evangelicals in Africa.

Best,

Jd1

P.S. I too think bragging about a husbandâ??s embarrassment and a womenâ??s bewilderment at oneâ??s â??missionaryâ?? efforts is poor style and reflects very negatively on oneâ??s intent

[Matthew J. Tandy]

Howdy Aaron, I was wondering if that was you out there. Sorry I couldn't stop and talk. My wife however doesn't like standing around while I do stuff like that. She's fine me going off and what not on my own, but she finds it all rather boring.

Anyway, I suppose driving past I saw the numbers wrong. However, there was a group near that size at the time, so maybe people who stopped for a moment to listen?

FYI, the location was tasteless. At least go over to the confnce center area and not tick people off leaving the Temple on what may be their date... away from kids.

Bragging about the husband thing is tasteless too. I would love to see your reaction if I said something about doing that in front of an evangelical minister and his wife and boasted like that.

Anyway, have fun. I'm sure I'll see you around sometime... I hope doing other things, but then I wouldn't recognize you.

[LifeOnaPlate]

Aaron, what's with the equivocation? I already expressed agreement on each quote you have posted in this thread.

[John D the First]

It is true that the belief that God became God through personal merit is not an LDS essential, but it is part of the LDS tradition. It continues to be brought up as if it is something to ashamed of. I believe that a God who became God in a universe where God is not a necessary part of reality, is more glorious and more worthy of worship than a God who just always was.

In the former case God has full credit for His divinity, in the latter God has no more credit for His nature than a rock. He is almost an automaton, for He can be nothing else. To me this God appears as a lifeless, amoral slave to "necessary being."

But that is just my opinion.

Best to you!

Jd1

[Bernard Gui]

Man, can you believe guys like this? This BYU professor obviously doesn't know Mormon doctrine at all! He must have just made this up, because it obviously came from nowhere but his imagination.

Yes, I can believe guys like this. How incredibly marvelous is the thought that we can be

like Him, too. That's His promise, and He's a Man of His Word. How can this frighten you so?

Bernard

[LifeOnaPlate]

Man, can you believe guys like this? This BYU professor obviously doesn't know Mormon doctrine at all! He must have just made this up, because it obviously came from nowhere but his imagination.

I am far from understanding all the details, aaron, but I do believe Br. Madsen's words. I believe the words of Christ. Becoming like our Father in no wise replaces our Father, negates His Supreme power, or makes him any less than what He is. You blaspheme the power of God every single time you mock these beliefs. I realize you see it as the other way around, but I can assure you, God is all-powerful; and we can become Gods, even the Sons of God.

[e=mc2]

Aaronschaf:

Where does the "Mormon religion" teach that Jesus had to become a god in the "pre-existence"?

That'd be 5th Nephi 121:44-657............. to make it short Here are the first few lines of the revelation.

All that the Lord reveals is true.

authority for preaching shal be given through the laying on of hands.

rely on the Lord, and it shall be for thy good.

others exist which are not of this life,

nor shall it be until mankind repents.

Surely the Lord knows the minds of men

certainty of my premortal existence is assured

hearken unto my words and be saved

after ths knowledge is spread throughout the world

fathers shall teach their wives, and they shall teach their children.

increase in the faith of the Lord

surely He shall reward thee thy diligence.

archangels shall weep for joy at thy strengths o Zion!

Delight in integrity and circumcize thy hearts

obedience and faith shal help thee endure the darts of the adversary

pray always lest ye fall into temptation

endure to the end and the premortal existence shall be revealed unto thee.

Lord "the acrostic king" Kerry

[LifeOnaPlate]

I'll be working on my new site "Jesus Not Aaron"

By the way, Aaron, you should consider writing for Chick comics. The mental picture you paint of the sheltered wife and her bumbling, sweaty husband-- one ignorant of the Church's "actual" teachings, the other "lying" about them-- is classic Jack Chick fodder.

[aaronshaf]

Oh, I can feel the looooooooove.

[paulhadik]

Aaron:

my guess is theologically you and I aren't too far off so I hesitate to write this but can't help from reading everyone else's comments...I have never understood the tactic of standing outside someone's place of worship as a witnessing tool. to be honest it comes off just plain rude. I don't doubt you love the Mormon people but isn't there a better way to be a testimony and a witness?

I have never seen people standing outside KMart with placards or a steak house waving signs because we all understand that people going in to those places just write you off.

But to stand outside a place of worship...we don't do that with Catholics or Jews or KJV Only nut-houses why do we try it outside temples?

I am willing to listen to an explanation but I just don't see it being a good thing

respectfully

paul

[paulhadik]

LifeonaPlate:

some of us growing up cut our theological teeth on Chick Tracts (well, ok, they kept us awake during sermons) the veitnam guy going up to heaven while his nasty sarge gets blown away; the poor girl sleeping in the box, the incredible number of people who get killed at train crossings after rejecting altar calls, and of course the ubiquitous catholic priest peeling off his face to reveal satan.

please don't take the Chick name in vain (or should we pull on your facial skin just to make sure.....)

[freakin a man]

Matthew, there were only three of us.

Speaking of last night...

The wife of one couple I talked to didn't realize her Mormon religion taught that Jesus had to become a god in the pre-existence. The husband at first denied it, but then affirmed it, and ... man was he sweating with embarrassment. His wife looked bewildered and astonished. I felt sorry for the wife, but I was glad that her conscience was alive.

Man when will these morons realize its all about Jesus. Not Paul or Peter. Why these people believe in their writings when they are clearly not needed. Jesus did it all. We don't need some false writings from them when we have Jesus. Away with Galations, Romans, and all these other unnecessary writings. Its all about Jesus.

In fact, I seriously might consider making a sign "Jesus Not Paul" and take it down to Temple Sqaure to counterprotest these Paul worshippers.

[volvoman]

Matthew, there were only three of us.

Speaking of last night...

aaronshaf,

Are you sick or just deeply disturbed ! Can't you let your anti- attitudes and actions rest for one night.

Vladimer Lenin once observed, "To a revolutionary there is nothing else but the Revolution!" Lenin was correct when referring to the Bolsheviks. However, there is something deeply disturbing about an individual who must rush off to every "event" and be there to torment someone and all in the name of "Christianity". AARONSHAF, YOU ARE ONE SICK PERSON. I feel very sorry for you. We will probably read one day that you did something terrible because "God told you to do it". Recnt history is full of people who went off and did something so terrible and thought they were doing it with God's approval.

Why can't you even let the humble Temple visitor alone. You have got a lot to learn about human discourse and interaction. Your methods speak volumes about you. Your actions relegate you into insignificance. Your behavior makes people nervous. Let it alone man....go out to movie and enjoy a dinner out once in awhile. In other words, GET A LIFE!

Volvoman

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Matthew, there were only three of us.

Speaking of last night...

The wife of one couple I talked to didn't realize her Mormon religion taught that Jesus had to become a god in the pre-existence. The husband at first denied it, but then affirmed it, and ... man was he sweating with embarrassment. His wife looked bewildered and astonished. I felt sorry for the wife, but I was glad that her conscience was alive.

I feel sorry for your child who will grow up believing this to be acceptable behavior.

Pa Pa

Knock off the personal insuls, Pa Pa. =Mods.

[urroner]

Aaron, here is a very interesting article written by an Evangelical scholar who is bucking the tide of Classical/Traditional/Biblical/Mainstream Christianity. You've Seen One Elohim, You've Seen Them All? A Critique of Mormonism's Use of Psalm 82 by Michael S. Heiser

He talks about Christ having a beginning and he demonstrates it through the scriptures very handily.

So Aaron, why don't you follow the advise found in the Bible and go demonstrate against people like him, who belong to your house, and clean your own house before attempting to clean somebody else's house or maybe you don't follow the advice of the Bible, you just have an axe to grind and enjoy intentionally causing problems in marriages and love to boast about it. I guess misery loves company.

[John D the First]

I think we should all give Aaron a break. Persecution has always been good for the cohesion and solidarity of the Saints. It is probably one the reasons for our survival. Now a'days these types of protests outside of Temple Square, and any other innapropriate place, are one of the only times the Saints can really feel persecuted. I think it actually does us a favor. Being heckled after conference has always seemed to me, a great validation for the Saints, a small connection to the persecuted in Missouri.

So I say Aaron keep it up, you are doing the church a great favor. I also think vitriolic comments directed towards Aaron will have the same effect. The best reaction is the one Brigham Young had to the Godbeits: indifference.

Best,

Jd1