Jesus Not Joseph

[oats]

It would be an amazing experiment to see how many random people of any religion you could confound and 'make sweat' by shouting twisted ideas of their doctrine at them. Add to that holding up signs 'Moses Lied' or 'Muhammed lied' or 'Bhuddah Lied' and then approaching them to quiz them on vague doctrines they don't experience in this life and rarely hear about in Church.

If I was always on my toes in that kind of situation I would just flat out admit that I was confused. Aaron, I would love if you would film some of the approaches you use on the street and some of the conversations you have. I would love if somebody would do this without Aaron noticing, actually, so the results won't be skewed.

Maybe someone can just approach him with a camera and try to play along with his questions to see how he leads people on? Or even just to see the types of questions he asks. I got a feel from the videos posted a few months ago, but those were not conversations. They were just rants without responses.

[LifeOnaPlate]

Maybe someone can just approach him with a camera and try to play along with his questions to see how he leads people on? Or even just to see the types of questions he asks. I got a feel from the videos posted a few months ago, but those were not conversations. They were just rants without responses.

At the Manti pageant the responseless rants were modus operandi for Shafavoloff and his friends. If you had a question, they were prepared to have someone else answer it so that the screamer could continue screaming. If the answerers were busy, you could stand in front of them and wait to get a word in edge-wise, but they weren't there to allow it as much as they could prevent.

[grego]

Yeah, he starts to sweat, deny and get uncomfortable just like that poor man he confronted outside of the temple. I can only imagine what dark secrets he's protecting.

I wonder what his wife's response...

[Hick Preacher]

selek

Could you please expound on "what not well tolerated in the culture" means? Were you publically humiliated? Sprayed with water cannons? Attacked by vicious dogs? Offered lukewarm lemonade instead of chilled?

LDS people consistently objected to the idea of a non-LDS Church being operated in the local community. They often rudely voiced their objections toward non-LDS churches. We were not out with an â??anti-Mormon message, simply letting people know that a new church was startedâ??and they were invited to attend.

Doctor Steuss

If they would like to be consistent (something that Mr. Shafovaloff has demanded from organizations such as the ADL in the past), I know of a Jewish â??templeâ? that is right down the street from my work. I look forward to them picketing it with â??Jesus not Mosesâ? signs.

I wouldnâ??t want him and his ilk to be hypocrites or anything.

Still waiting for my Jesus vs. Zoroaster DVD in the mail.

One may wonder why Attention is focused on Mormonism. As I mentioned before, most people who conduct outreach efforts to Mormons have some sort of history with Mormonism. Another attention getter mechanism is related to the LDS claim that all other churches are wrong. Still another feature of interest to people is the LDS claim that they have the only authority and are the one true Church. On top of all of this Mormonism is considered internally aberrant, but externally having an appealing and attractive appearance. This internal aberrant aspect leads certain people to feel it is their duty to warn the general public about the internal aberrant aspects.

maklelan

No one respects a man who, dedicating his and his family's lives to destroying Mormonism,

Few do but many do not-

[Doctor Steuss]

Good evening my craw-fish huntin' brother.

Doctor Steuss

One may wonder why Attention is focused on Mormonism. As I mentioned before, most people who conduct outreach efforts to Mormons have some sort of history with Mormonism.

I'm sure this is the case, but is there no one out there with a similar history with Judaism? Zoroastrianism?

Another attention getter mechanism is related to the LDS claim that all other churches are wrong.

Is this not a tenet of Christianity?

Still another feature of interest to people is the LDS claim that they have the only authority and are the one true Church.

So... because of this claim, you must show us that you are more true and the ones with the real authority?

On top of all of this Mormonism is considered internally aberrant, but externally having an appealing and attractive appearance.

Internally aberrant? I fail to see it as such. I know how people can create a caricature of it though that is internally aberrant. In fact, Christianity is such. They ritualistically cannibalize the flesh and blood of their G-d (see how perspective can put a spin?...).

This internal aberrant aspect leads certain people to feel it is their duty to warn the general public about the internal aberrant aspects.

Kind of like how Christians believe that G-d sent his son to be slaughtered for justice for the law that G-d himself created? Or that they believe in being ritualistically buried in water to wash themselves in the blood of their God? Or that they believe G-d created an angel whose sole purpose would be to make us lean towards breaking the law that G-d created?

I don't believe the general public is necessarily well served by the caricatures created by those with beams obstructing their optic nerves.

Edited to add:

I just re-read my comments and saw how deeply offensive they might be viewed. I was just trying to illustrate a point, and I hope I did not offend anyone or their beliefs in doing so. If anyone does find my comments above as an attack or offensive (as I know some of them could be deemed by LDS as well as non-LDS), please feel free to report the post so the mods can edit it. I'm heading home for the evening.

Again, my apologies if any of it was offensive. That was not my intent (completely).

[cksalmon]

Still waiting for my Jesus vs. Zoroaster DVD in the mail.

Yeah, yeah. I'm working on it. Nothing but a trouble-making Iranian, that one. Probably actually historical, too. And some people wonder why we're going to have to bomb them. It boggles the mind. C'mon 2008! C'mon!

I'm pretty much laying into him. I've incorporated a pentagram and everything, bro.

CKS

[maklelan]

maklelan

Few do but many do not-

Are you saying that a life dedicated to tearing down the faith of other people is respectable? Is that really what Jesus preached?

Yeah, yeah. I'm working on it. Nothing but a trouble-making Iranian, that one. Probably actually historical, too.

Why do you say that?

[Hick Preacher]

Doctor Steuss

Good evening my craw-fish huntin' brother.

Hick Now Says-

Finger lick'in Good!

QUOTE(Hick Preacher @ Aug 20 2007, 04:25 PM)

One may wonder why Attention is focused on Mormonism. As I mentioned before, most people who conduct outreach efforts to Mormons have some sort of history with Mormonism.

Doctor Steuss

I'm sure this is the case, but is there no one out there with a similar history with Judaism? Zoroastrianism?

Hick Now Says-

Then it is up to those with such a history to reach out to those individuals--That is what Santa Monica did for her son.

Hick-

QUOTE

Another attention getter mechanism is related to the LDS claim that all other churches are wrong.

Doctor Steuss

Is this not a tenet of Christianity?

Hick Now Says-

No

Hick

QUOTE

Still another feature of interest to people is the LDS claim that they have the only authority and are the one true Church.

Doctor Steuss

So... because of this claim, you must show us that you are more true and the ones with the real authority?

Hick Now Says-

Christians have authority by way of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Hick

QUOTE

On top of all of this Mormonism is considered internally aberrant, but externally having an appealing and attractive appearance.

Doctor Steuss

Internally aberrant? I fail to see it as such. I know how people can create a caricature of it though that is internally aberrant. In fact, Christianity is such. They ritualistically cannibalize the flesh and blood of their G-d (see how perspective can put a spin?...).

Hick Now Asks-

From Origen's Aganist Celsus?

Hick

QUOTE

This internal aberrant aspect leads certain people to feel it is their duty to warn the general public about the internal aberrant aspects.

Doctor Steuss

Kind of like how Christians believe that G-d sent his son to be slaughtered for justice for the law that G-d himself created? Or that they believe in being ritualistically buried in water to wash themselves in the blood of their God? Or that they believe G-d created an angel whose sole purpose would be to make us lean towards breaking the law that G-d created?

I don't believe the general public is necessarily well served by the caricatures created by those with beams obstructing their optic nerves.

Hick Now Says

This is public information-- and is preached even by the LDS 'Preparatory Gospel'( D&C 84) However, Mormonism has been described to have "Two Gospels" ( Bruce McConkie, MD- pg 333). One is public, the other internal and esoteric. It is the esoteric aspect which is the subject matter involved with the warnings.

[William the Conqueror]

Aaron: First; according to LDS theology, there is no "pre-existence," as that is a misnomer sometimes used to talk about pre-mortality. We always existed, at least the matter itself; thus there was no "pre" existence. With all the studying of Mormonism you do I am surprised you didn't know that. As for Jesus being a god before the earth was created, you were too. So was that man and his wife; so was I. We were gods in the council.

I thought Brigham's Adam-God view has been repudiated by present day LDS. Am I mistaken?

[cksalmon]

Aaron: First; according to LDS theology, there is no "pre-existence," as that is a misnomer sometimes used to talk about pre-mortality. We always existed, at least the matter itself; thus there was no "pre" existence. With all the studying of Mormonism you do I am surprised you didn't know that. As for Jesus being a god before the earth was created, you were too. So was that man and his wife; so was I. We were gods in the council.

Hi LOAP--

Whoah, now. In what sense? In the sense that LDS theology lacks an unbridgeable, predicative species-distinction between the currently exalted and the potentially exalted? That's a thin bit of wire upon which to trod.

Or, do you really believe that you personally were exalted to godhood prior to your incarnation?

Careful not to slip into equivocation on this point. The two positions are not the same.

Frankly, I don't think you were a god, per official LDS theology and in the relevant sense. Though if perhaps you could demonstrate such from official statements, I'd be more than interested. The other sense is dependent upon semantics irrelevant to the specifics of the issue at hand, I'd say.

What is the official text (or texts) you'd cite to demonstrate that LDS theology holds that "we" were gods in the council?

I know of none.

Best.

CKS

[Pahoran]

selek

LDS people consistently objected to the idea of a non-LDS Church being operated in the local community. They often rudely voiced their objections toward non-LDS churches.

I'm sorry Hick, but I find that claim quite extraordinarily difficult to believe.

Regards,

Pahoran

[LifeOnaPlate]

Hick Preacher: You said it was not a tenet of Christianity that it is the only true faith? So there is a different way to be saved other than through Jesus Christ?

CK: gods, even the sons of God. And through the grace of Christ we renew that relationship.

For an interesting discussion see the latest FARMS review.

[Zakuska]

I thought Brigham's Adam-God view has been repudiated by present day LDS. Am I mistaken?

Yes you are mistaken... what is repudiated is the miscontruing theories known as the Adam Go theory. The miscaraciturizations of what BY said.

[Moon Quaker]

Except LDS missionaries knock on the door and very politely ask people if they would like to learn more about God. When told no, they wish them a blessed day and move on.

I beg to differ. While on my mission, we were specifically told not settle for a single 'no.' I was always the "less-effective" missionary; at my doors, if the person said 'no,' I accepted that and was willing to "wish them a blessed day and move on." But then my "effective" companions would always take over and do as we were trained; i.e., preaching until we got at least two or three 'no's.' IMO, that's no different than what Aaron is doing. (But tangentially, I must add that it was people like Aaron who completely turned me off from Christianity altogether; street preachers don't realize how idiotic they look. But for me it was more of a "why trade cow pies for horse pies?")

[MJNSW]

Amen.

Ken and Cindy: Disengage.

Skylla

I apologize.

I would like to ask Aaron's group of protesters a question. What about your tactics makes you feel you are accomplishing something worth while? And also, What is it that you hope to accomplish with your displays? I find that people are more irritated and frustrated with the demonstrations than educated. Just an honest observation.

[Calm]

I'm sorry Hick, but I find that claim quite extraordinarily difficult to believe.

It does seem inconsistent with demonstrated acceptance of new congregations (as in donating time, land or money so that their churches may be built) over much of the history of Utah.

However, he did say it was in the rural areas and if the new congregations were presented as having the purpose of bringing the gospel to the 'nonChristian' LDS as opposed to serving their own members in the area (a not totally unknown occurrence from what I've heard), that might be a problem. One would have to know what was being said among the community as well as at the door I suspect to figure out what was going on.

[LifeOnaPlate]

A list of unanswered questions in this thread for Agent Shafavoloff:

1. How could Christ become something that He already was? (You answered with "Dude, you should go on TV with Larry King!" A real answer, please.)

2. Jesus is God now, so who cares?

3. I don't doubt you love the Mormon people but isn't there a better way to be a testimony and a witness?

4. So Aaron, why don't you follow the advise found in the Bible and go demonstrate against people like him, who belong to your house, and clean your own house before attempting to clean somebody else's house?

5. If the man understood it why would he not be forthcoming?

At this point, I said "Agent Shafavaloff only sticks around on the board in discussions dealing with his "ministry." In matters doctrinal he throws a few links to his wiki never to return and respond to any counter-arguments."

I was only half right. Aaron returned two posts later to half-respond to auteur by linking to his wiki on the Adam-God theory of all things.

Next came a series of questions from Six:

6.

a) Do you consider yourself to be an Evangelical?

b )Do you consider yourself and the organizations you are affiliated with to be extremists...or mainstream within the body of Evangelical and traditional Christianity.

c)Where does the funding for the network of antiMormon ministries come from -- extremist elements within traditional Evangleicalism...or from the mainstream?

Aaron responds with "I'm an evangelical and I have a full-time job doing web development."

Six becomes more specific:

7.

a) Please tell us what traditional Church and denomination you are affiliated with.

Do you consider yourself to be an Evangelical?

c) Do you consider yourself and the organizations you are affiliated with to be extremists...or mainstream within the body of Evangelical and traditional Christianity?

d) Where does the funding for the network of antiMormon ministries come from -- extremist elements within traditional Evangleicalism...or from the mainstream?

8. How does killing all the firstborn sons in Egypt show the world that he is an awesome God?

9. What does the Adam-God theory have to do with "demonizing" a critic? [Aaron had linked the word "demonizing" with the Adam-God theory on his wiki.]

10. Can you explain wherein President Hincklie [sic] "lied" for the Lord?

11. What say you, Agent Shafavoloff? Why not present the difference between the speculation of everyday members and what can be considered canonical beliefs of the Church? [in regards to Aaron misrepresenting LDS beliefs on other sites, and in general.]

Then grego asks a few:

12. If God created all things, and "JC created absolutely everything"--as you pointed out--what was the process he used to create himself?

13. What was his process and purpose to create Mormons and untruth, if everything is from him, through him, to him, for him?

14. If all things weren't created for us, but for God, why did he create all things to show off how awesome God is--to *us*?

It should be noted Shafavoloff took time to throw a few remarks into other threads, and was seen lurking throughout the day. It's not that he didn't have time to answer even one of these questions; he simply chose not to answer.

It should also be noted this is a list of explicit questions only. Many other points were made but Shafavoloff did not respond. He did post a picture of teddy bears, though.

Aaron Shafavoloff: Can you answer any of these questions?

[Hick Preacher]

Previous interaction:

Hick-QUOTE

Another attention getter mechanism is related to the LDS claim that all other churches are wrong.

LifeOnaPlateâ??s response---

Hick Preacher: You said it was not a tenet of Christianity that it is the only true faith? So there is a different way to be saved other than through Jesus Christ?

Doctor Steuss Added:

QUOTE

Is this not a tenet of Christianity?

Hickâ??s response

No

LifeOnaPlate replied:

Hick Preacher: You said it was not a tenet of Christianity that it is the only true faith?

Hick explains---I was addressing â??all other churches are wrongâ?? NOT other non-christian faiths. Afterall just look at what Jesus said in John 14:6

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

maklelanâ??s comment / question

Are you saying that a life dedicated to tearing down the faith of other people is respectable? Is that really what Jesus preached?

Hick says:

It depends on the situationâ??for example examine these Bible verses from ancient accounts of Biblical persons confronting other religious practices--

Ge 35:2 Then Jacob said unto his household, and to all that were with him, Put away the strange gods that are among you, and be clean, and change your garments:

Lu 13: 1 There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.

2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?

3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?

5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Previous Interaction

Hick : LDS people consistently objected to the idea of a non-LDS Church being operated in the local community. They often rudely voiced their objections toward non-LDS churches.

Pahoran initial response:

I'm sorry Hick, but I find that claim quite extraordinarily difficult to believe.

Hick explains:

I would point out that this door-to-door was in rural Mormon dominated territory. Not Ogden, Not SLC, Not Provo, Not Boise ID, nor a modern metro area. Rather, in a backward provincial closed community- yet it does show a cultural attribute of LDS thinking.

Such resistance gives rise to social activism â?? including delivering socially relevant messages by street preaching.

-----------------------------------

Moon Quaker comments:

But then my "effective" companions would always take over and do as we were trained; i.e., preaching until we got at least two or three 'no's.' IMO, that's no different than what Aaron is doing. (But tangentially, I must add that it was people like Aaron who completely turned me off from Christianity altogether; street preachers don't realize how idiotic they look. But for me it was more of a "why trade cow pies for horse pies?")

Hick adds:

What I would say is that in small town Utah/ Idaho, a Christian Missionary can go door-to-door for long extended periods of time and consistently get a â??NOâ? and refusal to listen by adherents of the local/rural LDS church culture ( that may be unique to that area). This results in hundreds of hours of labor without an opportunity to explain Biblical Christianity to an interested party. However, when a Christian Missionary street preaches at a large LDS event, in only a few hours He/She will be able to gain the attention of several dozen individuals. After the individualâ??s attention is gainedâ??some other Christian is standing by to engage in conversation. Often a URL with more information is given to the interested individual. So in the Mormon dominated territories street preaching is viewed as more efficient and effective than door-to-door contacts. This of course all depends on what the end goal is about in these territories.--- Another related topic.

However, at this time I should note that the goal of Christian Missionaries is not to tear down someone else's faith to leave people void and in despair. The objective is to give insights to individuals the identity of the Savior. The objective is NOT to convert LDS individuals into some specific Church organization. Another objective is to send the message that LDS people who no longer wish to be LDS have a viable alternative. From some perspective it appears that LDS keep referring to "tearing down'. Yet if one looks at the Bible the call to reject one's former religion and convert could also be falsely labeled as 'tearing down'.

[Hammer]

I'll be working on my new site "Jesus Not Aaron"

By the way, Aaron, you should consider writing for Chick comics. The mental picture you paint of the sheltered wife and her bumbling, sweaty husband-- one ignorant of the Church's "actual" teachings, the other "lying" about them-- is classic Jack Chick fodder.

Its about time someone put the right message out.

[Hammer]

First, if you're going to associate me with the normal General Conference "screechers" (as James White calls them), and if you're going to hang onto the silly foam-at-the-mouth imagery, then you're operating off a caricature that you apparently think you need to make a point that you otherwise couldn't make.

Secondly, if you think I was simply trying to stump a Mormon over LDS doctrine, then you're missing the point. This man knew exactly what I was referring to and he wasn't at first willing to be forthright and explicit about the LDS teaching, especially in front of his wife who didn't know about it.

The doctrines are in the heart. Are you saying you expect yourself to be worthy of examining another man's heart?

Where does Christ come in -- after you?

[Doctor Steuss]

I'm pretty much laying into him. I've incorporated a pentagram and everything, bro.

CKS

[Doctor Steuss]

Good Morning Hick Preacher:

I appreciate your not taking offense at some of my comments in the previous post. I actually was stressing about it last night, so Iâ??m glad they were taken with charity.

Another attention getter mechanism is related to the LDS claim that all other churches are wrong.

Is this not a tenet of Christianity?

No

So Judaism, Islam, Buddhism and Hinduism are not wrong according to Christianity? What about the Gnostics? This is what Iâ??m talking about. Mormonism takes this tenet of Christianity one step further. Whereas Christianity rejects all â??churchesâ? that arenâ??t â??Christianâ? (or those that through their re-interpretation of terms decide arenâ??t Christian, such as the Mormons), Mormonism just takes it one step further to the â??One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism.â? There is but one faith. To claim offense for the LDS for claiming this is hypocrisy.

This is public information-- and is preached even by the LDS 'Preparatory Gospel'( D&C 84) However, Mormonism has been described to have "Two Gospels" ( Bruce McConkie, MD- pg 333). One is public, the other internal and esoteric. It is the esoteric aspect which is the subject matter involved with the warnings.

As you seem to be a very well studied individual, Iâ??m surprised you would think this to be a problem. The esoteric was very much a part of early Christianity. A few people even tried to curtail the loss of the esoteric.

[LifeOnaPlate]

Hick explains---I was addressing â??all other churches are wrongâ?? NOT other non-christian faiths. Afterall just look at what Jesus said in John 14:6

So not "all other churches are wrong," but "the ones my evangelical belief dictates are wrong."

Same basic idea: "others are wrong."

It depends on the situationâ??for example examine these Bible verses from ancient accounts of Biblical persons confronting other religious practices--

I don't see the same tactics employed. I also see this preaching done with authority by men who were directly called by God as was Aaron (NOT Aaron Shafavoloff, mind you). These were men who had conversed with God directly. They had authority. They also didn't employ dishonest, wrangling practices. They preached Christ and Him crucified; not a detailed explanation of false doctrine of other faiths.

I would point out that this door-to-door was in rural Mormon dominated territory. Not Ogden, Not SLC, Not Provo, Not Boise ID, nor a modern metro area. Rather, in a backward provincial closed community- yet it does show a cultural attribute of LDS thinking.

Such resistance gives rise to social activism â?? including delivering socially relevant messages by street preaching.

I think it more or less shows more of an attribute of rural isolated communities, where ever they may be, moreso than an LDS way of thinking. I experienced similar response, if I understand your description, on my mission in Wisconsin.

What I would say is that in small town Utah/ Idaho, a Christian Missionary can go door-to-door for long extended periods of time and consistently get a â??NOâ? and refusal to listen by adherents of the local/rural LDS church culture ( that may be unique to that area). This results in hundreds of hours of labor without an opportunity to explain Biblical Christianity to an interested party. However, when a Christian Missionary street preaches at a large LDS event, in only a few hours He/She will be able to gain the attention of several dozen individuals. After the individualâ??s attention is gainedâ??some other Christian is standing by to engage in conversation.

This shows a lack of understanding of society at large, if you chalk it up to being a Utah/Idaho thing. I experienced the same thing, again, in rural Wisconsin. Those people are still precious in the eyes of God, and the truth of God will reach every place we can possibly take it to the best of our ability.

Mormons in large groups are probably just as disinterested, especially given your abraisive methods.

Often a URL with more information is given to the interested individual.

I found several problems on the website given by Aaron Shafavoloff. Misrepresentations, half-truths and quote mining galore.

So in the Mormon dominated territories street preaching is viewed as more efficient and effective than door-to-door contacts. This of course all depends on what the end goal is about in these territories.--- Another related topic.

Don't work harder, work smarter, right? Converting to Christ the easy way.

However, at this time I should note that the goal of Christian Missionaries is not to tear down someone else's faith...

It isn't?

...to leave people void and in despair.

Few, you qualified it. Your goal is, in fact, to tear down someone else's faith.

The objective is to give insights to individuals the identity of the Savior. The objective is NOT to convert LDS individuals into some specific Church organization.

I realize you disagree with LDS theology. I take exception to the vulgar manner in which it is blasphemed by the screamers.

Another objective is to send the message that LDS people who no longer wish to be LDS have a viable alternative.

So all the people who have fallen away from the LDS Church are going to the Temple on Friday night now? Or maybe you're hoping you can just foster doubt. Christ sows the seeds of faith.

From some perspective it appears that LDS keep referring to "tearing down'. Yet if one looks at the Bible the call to reject one's former religion and convert could also be falsely labeled as 'tearing down'.

There is a huge difference in methodology. If you can't see that difference I don't know what else to say about it.

I would also like to say I think it's great you're willing to spend some time discussing the issues. If you could let Aaron Shafavoloff know he has a lot of unanswered questions waiting for him on this thread I'd greatly appreciate it. I spent some time collecting them into one convenient post so as to save him some time.

[Hick Preacher]

I'll be working on my new site "Jesus Not Aaron"

There is a huge difference between the Jesus NOT Joseph verses the message "Jesus Not (evangelical etreet peacher)".

For Example----

Joseph Smith pointed to himself and claimed to hold keys of authority from God that had to be channelled exclusively through himself.

--------verses-----------

Evangelical street preachers simply point externally to the Bible as a source of authority.

--------------

Evangelical outreaches primarily are geared toward gaining the attention of people and directing that gained attention toward documents that ordinary people can verify for themselves.

[charity]

HIck, you obviously came over here to play in this sandbox, when the rude little boys in the other sandbox started throwing rocks and the good kids left.

Does that say anything to you about the effectiveness of throwing rocks? What good do the street preachers do with their rude behavior?