Jesus Not Joseph

[ERMD]

Do you think I have not been to temple square of even to the Manti pageant? (Many times) Do you think I am not aware of how Aaron acts? (yes) Do I care about how he acts? (no... I am more concerned with my own actions)

Why do the words coming out of his mouth affect you so much? Are you that insecure with yourself, your belief, or the gospel you represent that you cannot let it stand up on its own without attacking this poor soul?

You don't think that he will disappear if you ignore him? Are you so afraid that the church will crumble and fall because this boy voices his thoughts and opinions?

I have been to the website... I have walked through the crowds and witnessed the demonstrations mult. times! But I do have enough security in what I teach my children, in myself, and in my beliefs that I don't go wishing that I can flatten a person. I also have enough security that I don't feel the need to create or feed fuel to the contention.

I just thought that you might be grown up enough to realize what you are doing to... but that might have been my error in judgement..

So after having witnessed this, you say what the missionaries do is MORE invasive?

What other counsel for the missionary program do you have?

[MJNSW]

So after having witnessed this, you say what the missionaries do is MORE invasive?

What other counsel for the missionary program do you have?

It is more invasive in the respect that they are knocking on your door... wanting to come into your home. I am sorry, but opening the door to complete "male" strangers... or even female... or anyone - is indeed invasive to me!

I am not saying the message is an invasive message. I enjoy the messages, but to have someone whom I do not know come to my door desiring to come in and speak with me and my family is indeed invasive!!!!

Now - people standing out with signs and talking loudly or not, outside is not invasive to me in the least. I can turn the other direction, walk around or by them. Tune them out if I like... but they are not coming into my home and that is all that counts.

Besides, these people are standing in crowded places. The likelihood of a person being raped or murdered by them is down considerably than the person who is dumb enough to open the door to 2 complete strangers.

[Bsix]

I winced when I read the comment by an LDS poster that they'd like to do violence to the antiMormon screechers. The suggestion of attacking an antiMormon is ill-considered, harmful to our religion, provides fodder for our critics, and is unChristian.

I assume that it was made in jest...but I still wish it hadn't been made.

Regards,

Six

[MJNSW]

I winced when I read the comment by an LDS poster that they'd like to do violence to the antiMormon screechers. The suggestion of attacking an antiMormon is ill-considered, harmful to our religion, provides fodder for our critics, and is unChristian.

I assume that it was made in jest...but I still wish it hadn't been made.

Regards,

Six

Thank you! Very well stated!

[gitxsanartist]

Perhaps we do take a position because there is some small truth to what he says. I for one know there is that is why I frequent these boards. Our history is not as clear cut as we would like to believe and our doctrine is likewise. At some point we will come to the realization that our church like every other church on the earth is a man made organization made of imperfect souls who are striving to come closer to God, our motives are not wrong but some of our fantastical beliefs border on sillyness, I'm not just talking about LDS, I am talking about all religions.

I guess that is what makes America great, our freedom to believe in what we will and also our freedom to voice our opinions and beliefs. Having served a mission in Japan, I can say that I made every effort to be courteous and non-aggressive in my proselyting efforts, however not the same can be said for every missionary in my mission. Barging into genkans and sticking one's foot in the door so it couldn't be closed were tactics employed frequently by those missionaries in their misguided zeal to spread the word. Knocking on doors until 10:00PM was also something that I was never quite comfortable with even though our mission president pushed us in this direction so as to increase our lagging baptism numbers.

I guess what I am saying is that even though our friend's method is more vocal and even obnoxious our methods of proselyting tend to be more personal and intrusive, personally I think the first presidency should crack down on some of these methods employed in the missions across the church, we are in a sense shooting ourselves in the foot. Sometimes our own zeal tends to get us into trouble.

[ERMD]

It is more invasive in the respect that they are knocking on your door... wanting to come into your home. I am sorry, but opening the door to complete "male" strangers... or even female... or anyone - is indeed invasive to me!

I am not saying the message is an invasive message. I enjoy the messages, but to have someone whom I do not know come to my door desiring to come in and speak with me and my family is indeed invasive!!!!

Now - people standing out with signs and talking loudly or not, outside is not invasive to me in the least. I can turn the other direction, walk around or by them. Tune them out if I like... but they are not coming into my home and that is all that counts.

Besides, these people are standing in crowded places. The likelihood of a person being raped or murdered by them is down considerably than the person who is dumb enough to open the door to 2 complete strangers.

It's a pity that you live in fear in your own home.

I guess when FedEx or UPS show up, you wait for the "all clear"...

[MJNSW]

It's a pity that you live in fear in your own home.

I guess when FedEx or UPS show up, you wait for the "all clear"...

I find you to be a very mean spirited person who is not only ignorant but very judgmental!

The point of my threads was not to point out your character but to think before acting or speaking.

Oh, and you might want to realize that the world we live in does make it necessary to be careful not to open the door to strangers... and having been a rape and incest victim does make me a bit more nervous than the ordinary person. It also opens my eyes so that I am not as naive and silly as many of those living in happy valley or the counterpart than can live more easily without the fear of such invasive situations.

[ERMD]

I find you to be a very mean spirited person who is not only ignorant but very judgmental!

The point of my threads was not to point out your character but to think before acting or speaking.

Oh, and you might want to realize that the world we live in does make it necessary to be careful not to open the door to strangers... and having been a rape and incest victim does make me a bit more nervous than the ordinary person. It also opens my eyes so that I am not as naive and silly as many of those living in happy valley or the counterpart than can live more easily without the fear of such invasive situations.

I guess that trumps even the race card, huh?

Not sure how all this warrants being branded as ignorant and judgemental, but so be it.

Like I intimated before, perhaps the missionary committee would be interested in your views as to how missionaries should approach people. I personally had a great deal of success with people that we found simply knocking on doors. Many were open and receptive, most were not interested. I don't think we intimidated or frightened anyone, though. I could be wrong.

[auteur55]

Oh, and he might not... but seriously... are you in High School and need to beat the pulp out of a person whose views do not coincide with your own

I don't know if you were directing this at me as I didn't say anything remotely resembling "beating the pulp" out of someone. One unfortunate poster said they would like to "flatten" the protestor and I think this poster should apologize as well as the poster who did nothing but call Aaron a "twit."

I distance myself from such comments no matter what arena i'm in. Mormons aren't perfect and just like Aaron, their passions get the best of them but this behaviour on either side should be avoided.

On the other hand I am not opposed to telling someone their actions are shameful or misleading. Which, in reality, has been the bulk of the comments here.

[MJNSW]

I don't know if you were directing this at me as I didn't say anything remotely resembling "beating the pulp" out of someone. One unfortunate poster said they would like to "flatten" the protestor and I think this poster should apologize as well as the poster who did nothing but call Aaron a "twit."

I distance myself from such comments no matter what arena i'm in. Mormons aren't perfect and just like Aaron, their passions get the best of them but this behaviour on either side should be avoided.

On the other hand I am not opposed to telling someone their actions are shameful or misleading. Which, in reality, has been the bulk of the comments here.

My comment was not directed at you and I apologize if you thought they were...

[LifeOnaPlate]

LifeOnaPlate, apparently you see what you want to see, and hear what you want to hear, and then describe it with a degree of exaggeration that makes you feel comfortable demonizing a critic.

What does the Adam-God theory have to do with "demonizing" [sic] a critic?

Not only is my account of your actions not exaggerated; it is documented in a movie clip.

Can you explain wherein President Hincklie [sic] "lied" for the Lord? Can you answer the questions regarding your ministry, its funding, etc.? We want to have an actual conversation here, rather than just trading barbs.

[charity]

I thoroughly object to anyone impinging on my freedom. Anyone who talks so loudly that I can't speak to my chosen companions in public is violating my freedom.

Take a look at what aaron said about us on another board. I am not trying to start a board war, but you might be interested.

Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 2:14 pm Posted by aaronshaf "What's worse: Believing that God once could possibility have been a practicing homosexual, or exposing that fact that people actually believe that?

For many Mormons, it's acceptable to believe it (it's certainly no cause for disfellowship), but it's absolutely unacceptable to make look Mormonism look bad."

This is what he wants people to believe about us. Nice guy, huh?

[LifeOnaPlate]

I guess he took Consigleri at his tongue-in-cheek word. Either Aaron Safavoloff is ignorant of sarcasm, or he is dishonest.

God wasn't a homosexual. He's currently not a homosexual. If you want to learn about God the Father's life the only revealed information on the subject is that Christ did nothing except what He saw the Father do. That is the extent of the revealed information on the topic.

What say you, Agent Shafavoloff? Why not present the difference between the speculation of everyday members and what can be considered canonical beliefs of the Church?

[Kenngo1969]

I felt sorry for the wife, but I was glad that her conscience was alive.

Let me get this straight: you want to appeal to our consciences, as if, not only is what we believe wrong according to you, but we actually ought to feel ashamed that we believe it? Our consciencesâ??if we had anyâ??ought to be getting the better of us? Pure hubris! Pure chutzpah! Unmitigated gall! Gimme a break!

My response to that is to echo Paulâ??yes, that Paul!

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth â?¦

It is you, sir, who ought to be ashamed for even suggesting such a thing!

What I truly do not understand about this thread is why some people holding some signs outside petitioning their point of view is such a big thing that even some of you expressed your desire to flatten them! Ummmmmm.... why is that when you send your 19 year old boys and retired old couples to knock on the publics doors to do the very exact same thing as those standing outside the temple.

Ummmm â?¦ itâ??s not the same thing! In fact, not only is it an apples-to-oranges comparison, itâ??s an apples-to-Buicks comparison! Our missionaries donâ??t vociferously bloviate condemnation of the people theyâ??re trying to reach outside of those peopleâ??s houses of worship!

I am simply stating that it is ridiculous that a group of grownups would get all huffed and puffed because someone wants to express their own point of view.

Itâ??s not the â??whatâ? weâ??re most concerned about: as Iâ??m sure you know, itâ??s the how!

Why do the words coming out of his mouth affect you so much? Are you that insecure with yourself, your belief, or the gospel you represent that you cannot let it stand up on its own without attacking this poor soul?

Spare us the poor, defenseless, â??woe-is-heâ? act! Iâ??ve seen comparatively little attacking of Aaron. What I have seen are attacks on his methods and motives, which I believe are entirely justified.

It is more invasive in the respect that they are knocking on your door... wanting to come into your home. I am sorry, but opening the door to complete "male" strangers... or even female... or anyone - is indeed invasive to me!

Fine. Weâ??ll just put you on the â??do-not-contactâ? list of police, fire, and medical personnel!

[grego]

Aaron,

Curious about just a few things...

*If God created all things, and "JC created absolutely everything"--as you pointed out--what was the process he used to create himself?

*What was his process and purpose to create Mormons and untruth, if everything is from him, through him, to him, for him?

*If all things weren't created for us, but for God, why did he create all things to show off how awesome God is--to *us*?

Ahhh... is Aaron trying to kick butt so he can make a name for himself? Perhaps I'm seeing something here?

-=-=-=

Lifeonaplate,

Perhaps Aaron prefers to keep all his holy work "in the dark", like Christ did--wait, that doesn't sound quite right...?

[MJNSW]

Ummmm … it’s not the same thing! In fact, not only is it an apples-to-oranges comparison, it’s an apples-to-Buicks comparison! Our missionaries don’t vociferously bloviate condemnation of the people they’re trying to reach outside of those people’s houses of worship!

It’s not the “what” we’re most concerned about: as I’m sure you know, it’s the how!

Spare us the poor, defenseless, “woe-is-he” act! I’ve seen comparatively little attacking of Aaron. What I have seen are attacks on his methods and motives, which I believe are entirely justified.

Fine. We’ll just put you on the “do-not-contact” list of police, fire, and medical personnel!

It is pointless trying to explain the obvious to someone who aspires to become one who spews whatever they have to to win their case. I already know you are a master at manipulating your words and throwing what you want out to "win" your case or to bring everyone out into your way of thinking.

Now really you are just being facetious on the boarder of malicious with that last comment. Again, proving your character is no better than Aaron's.

One thing you can learn from all of this is that tact can go a LONG way.

[LifeOnaPlate]

MJNSW:

People usually receive in kind. I'm not saying it is right, but Aaron's methods gender strifes. You are correct at saying name-calling against Shafavoloff isn't very Christlike.

I do, however, disagree that his tactics resemble that of LDS missionaries. Elders and Sisters are asked to carry themselves with "quiet dignity," to go about "doing good." If someone rejects their offer to share a message, they are asked (and it was somewhat obvious even without instruction) to allow them to worship how, where or what they may. Shafavoloff's doctrinal quibbling, mocking tone, abrasive shouting and misrepresentations of what the LDS Church believes are not appropriate for one who believes they represent the Christ.

I also think you take the teasing a little too seriously.

[freakin a man]

Aaron--Remember that it is all about Jesus not Paul. Choose Jesus and not Paul. (www.jesusnotpaul.com )

[MJNSW]

I want to clear up my statements so you all understand that I am not saying I am in favor of Aaron. I think that if you want to debate him on issues go for it. What I disagree with is attacking of people just because their opinion is different. And what I mean by attacking is by threatening to flatten or other bodily harm.

That is what I do not condone.

If you want answers and proof of answers fine... so be it! But there is a right and wrong way to debate. Or a Childish and non Childish way.

People can definitely throw names and words around and many have proved it on this thread alone. But can you handle a civil debate? I see a few have caught on and started to be productive or have been all along... but some just still do not get it....

[LifeOnaPlate]

I want to clear up my statements so you all understand that I am not saying I am in favor of Aaron. I think that if you want to debate him on issues go for it. What I disagree with is attacking of people just because their opinion is different. And what I mean by attacking is by threatening to flatten or other bodily harm.

That is what I do not condone.

If you want answers and proof of answers fine... so be it! But there is a right and wrong way to debate. Or a Childish and non Childish way.

People can definitely throw names and words around and many have proved it on this thread alone. But can you handle a civil debate? I see a few have caught on and started to be productive or have been all along... but some just still do not get it....

That's what I said: like begets like.

I saw little-still too much- behavior as described above.

Even then it seemed hyperbolic, and I'll bet Shafavoloff gets a kick out of it. I doubt anyone here would attempt to do any bodily harm to Shafavoloff.

[Kenngo1969]

It is pointless trying to explain the obvious to someone who aspires to become one who spews whatever they have to to win their case.

On the contrary, I just took you at your wordâ??as someone who is loathe to answer the door for strangers. You didnâ??t qualify that statement, so I just took it to its logical conclusion.

Now whoâ??s engaging in personal attacks and character assassination? You donâ??t have any basis for that accusation. Apart from a few posts on an anonymous message boardâ??but, for the record, my name is Ken Gourdinâ??you donâ??t even know me. Heck, you donâ??t even know me second-hand, by reputation. You have no idea what I â??aspireâ? to, and you have no basis for asserting that I would flout the law or the rules of evidence, procedure, or ethics (as someone who aspired to â??become one who spews whatever they have to to win their caseâ? would).

This, from a woman who says we shouldnâ??t â??attackâ? others! Carry on!

[bjw]

I thoroughly object to anyone impinging on my freedom. Anyone who talks so loudly that I can't speak to my chosen companions in public is violating my freedom.

Take a look at what aaron said about us on another board. I am not trying to start a board war, but you might be interested.

Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 2:14 pm Posted by aaronshaf "What's worse: Believing that God once could possibility have been a practicing homosexual, or exposing that fact that people actually believe that?

For many Mormons, it's acceptable to believe it (it's certainly no cause for disfellowship), but it's absolutely unacceptable to make look Mormonism look bad."

This is what he wants people to believe about us. Nice guy, huh?

If he honestly believes this he has a very poor understanding of Mormon theology. I can't believe anyone would spew out blatant lies like this. It makes me glad I am no longer a protestant, I just can't believe they are this confused about our theology. Of course, when I was in Bible college I remember them getting the kids psyched up for their missions trips to the Catholics by telling them the pope was the antichrist, Catholicism is satanic, prays to another "Jesus", etc. and it looks like they use the same sensational tactics when dealing with our church. I remember you were only saved if you "surrendered to the lordship of Christ" as defined by their church, otherwise it was another Jesus or only partial faith.

I think that explains their aggressive tactics, yelling, etc. compared to our missionaries that are more quiet and encourage you to pray to know for yourself whether or not it is true.

[MJNSW]

On the contrary, I just took you at your wordâ??as someone who is loathe to answer the door for strangers. You didnâ??t qualify that statement, so I just took it to its logical conclusion.

Oh, and you might want to realize that the world we live in does make it necessary to be careful not to open the door to strangers... and having been a rape and incest victim does make me a bit more nervous than the ordinary person. It also opens my eyes so that I am not as naive and silly as many of those living in happy valley or the counterpart than can live more easily without the fear of such invasive situations.

I qualified that statement... you simply did not read through the threads.

As for attacking you... no not you but your tactics. I have seen them one to many times and experienced your backlashing. It still sounds like yadda, yadda, yadda to me.

As for comparing Aaron to missionaries... no I am not doing that. I am simply saying that his tactics are less invasive since than that of the missionaries. The message I may not agree with. But the tactics and the message are 2 different things. You want to debate his message then do so - but it seemed that everyone was up and arms about how he is trying to spread his message. Now in that I have no problems and as stated before, that is because you can tone him out... he is not at your door, and you don't have to go to his website if you dislike him so.

[Kenngo1969]

As for attacking you... no not you but your tactics. I have seen them one to many times and experienced your backlashing. It still sounds like yadda, yadda, yadda to me.

Call for references as to my "tactics" and my "backlashing."

It is more invasive in the respect that they are knocking on your door... wanting to come into your home. I am sorry, but opening the door to complete "male" strangers... or even female... or anyone - is indeed invasive to me!

There is your original statement. It seems pretty straightforward and unqualified to me.

I qualified that statement... you simply did not read through the threads.

Oh, really? Where?

[LifeOnaPlate]

I qualified that statement... you simply did not read through the threads.

As for attacking you... no not you but your tactics. I have seen them one to many times and experienced your backlashing. It still sounds like yadda, yadda, yadda to me.

As for comparing Aaron to missionaries... no I am not doing that. I am simply saying that his tactics are less invasive since than that of the missionaries. The message I may not agree with. But the tactics and the message are 2 different things. You want to debate his message then do so - but it seemed that everyone was up and arms about how he is trying to spread his message. Now in that I have no problems and as stated before, that is because you can tone him out... he is not at your door, and you don't have to go to his website if you dislike him so.

I agree it can be annoying to have missionaries knock your door, but I feel a 30 second door step encounter is less invasive than someone shouting hate speech as you are attempting to learn about or worship God as you understand Him. I guess it depends on what you feel is more disrespectful.

PS- Vogel- is your JS book ever going to hit paperback?