Jesus Not Joseph

[LifeOnaPlate]

His fleeing isn't confined to those questions alone, BSix. I've never seen Shafavoloff stick around for a full discussion.

[MJNSW]

Would you rather the missionaries stand outside your house, say, at the sidewalk, or perhaps stand in the way of your workplace holding signs and shouting when you leave or come home? Would that be less or more evasive than a pair of polite young men knocking on your door, and you being free to not even answer? Say they show up at a birthday party you are having with your family in the park. The missionaries stand about 20 feet away from the party shouting and screaming at you all, holding large placards saying that you are whores, that you will all burn in eternal hell. The problem is, they would do this everytime you had a birthday party. Would that be preferable to current invasive tactics?

I would rather they not come to my door unless I invite them. Not even at my sidewalk.

The crazy thing is that the people demonstrating are not doing it at your workplace... and even if they were they would be outside and you inside.

How does one know that a person is polite and is not there to do bodily harm unless they have met them previously? It still puts you in an uncomfortable position in your own home when some stranger or 2 comes and knocks at the door.

See, you obviously cannot comprehend what it was like to be attacked and violated by a stranger or non stranger in your own home... so you cannot appreciate the intimidated feeling than many women do experience when a stranger comes to their door. That is not your fault nor your problem - but it is a real issue.

When learning and watching the church... I am able to embrace it better by the actions of the members. Not by people knocking on my door or yelling in the road, but by the actions. By a phone call saying "we were thinking about you today", or by someone turning the other cheek, or by someone defending a less knowledgeable person.

Not everyone is like me... I am aware of that, but I still stand by the fact that your tactics and attitudes of attacking are far from bringing anyone closer to Christ. Enough said, because obviously much of this is over your heads and I would not want you to experience any further headaches spurred on because of me.

[LifeOnaPlate]

Just don't answer the door. The missionaries aren't going to kick it in.

[Hick Preacher]

Six asks the questionsâ??

Let me step in being a friend and associate of Aaron:

Let me break Sixâ??s questions into two groups--

1. Please tell us what traditional Church and denomination you are affiliated with.

2. Do you consider yourself to be an Evangelical?

3. Do you consider yourself and the organizations you are affiliated with to be extremists...or mainstream within the body of Evangelical and traditional Christianity?

Evangelical Christianity covers a very broad spectrum of Biblical Christianity, also known as "Traditional Christianity" or "Mainstream Christianity".

Street Preachers come from a broad spectrum of denominations.

Evangelical Christianity is NOT a denomination. Evangelical Christianity crosses denominational boarders. Evangelicals are found in all kinds of denominations such as : Baptist, Lutheran, Pentecostal, Assembly of God, Methodist, Episcopal, Presbyterian, Disciples of Christ, and on and on ( both liberal and conservative).

NOT all Evangelicals are "Fundamentalists".

Evangelical Christianity could perhaps be best described as a Christian orientation or world view. This orientation includes general set of beliefs about Jesus Christ's Divinity, the authority of the Bible, and how God saves humans from this fallen world. This orientation runs across most Protestant Traditions but often is also held by many Roman Catholics and other 'Orthodox' (Trinitarian) believers. This orientation is today growing fast world wide.

http://www.ruxlds.com/Evangelical%20Christ...Described2.html

Sixâ??s other question:

4. Where does the funding for the network of antiMormon ministries come from -- extremist elements within traditional Evangleicalism...or from the mainstream?

The reason I ask has less to do with aaronshaf personally than it seems on the surface. There are any number of Evangelicals on this message board that tell us that folks that protest outside LDS events, do street preaching in the manner that aaronshaf does, and the antiMormon ministries that aaronshaf associates with are extremist elements and are not mainstream Evangelical believers. I am trying to get a sense of if that is true.

As far as I know most who are in outreaches to LDS people do it with their own money on their own time. Other formal ministry organizations do fund raising from a wide spectrum of Evangelical sources.

Door to Door work in Utah is rare but happens still today--

Back in the 1990s, while living in rural Northern Utah, I went door to door with a message about traditional mainstream (Trinitarian) Christianity. This was done in areas where LDS populations were said to be above 90%. It was not well tolerated in the culture. I thought this was ironic since these same communities sent out full time missionaries world-wide to use the same approach.

Street preaching Evangelicals are viewed as radical activists. Radical activists go public with overt public expressions are not unique in the larger American culture. But it is an oddity in Utah culture. Most of these activists with a message for the LDS people belong to churches that are mainstream Christian Churches. It is not unique for mainstream Christians to engage in other kinds of activism alsoâ??such as war protests, or other human rights issues. However, most street preachers who address Mormonism come from the more conservative side of Evangelicalism.

Even though many Mormons today consider Christians who claim that Mormons are NOT Christians are a radical minorityâ??this is not the case. See these few examples:

Lutheran Church statement

http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2239

Presbyterian Church (USA) statement

http://www.pcusa.org/interfaith/study/lds.htm

United Methodist

http://archives.umc.org/interior.asp?ptid=2&mid=3558

As far as I know most who are in outreaches to LDS people do it with their own money on their own time. Other formal ministry organizations do fund rising from a wide spectrum of Evangelical sources- but most come from individual who were once LDS, or have family or friends who are LDS.

Back in the 1990s, while living in rural Northern Utah, I went door to door with a message about traditional mainstream (Trinitarian) Christianity. This was done in areas where LDS populations were said to be above 90%. It was not well tolerated in the culture. I thought this was ironic since these same communities sent out full time missionariesâ?? worldwide to use the same approach.

Street preaching Evangelicals are viewed as radical activists. Radical activists go public with overt public expressions is not unique in the larger American culture. But it is an oddity in Utah culture. Most of these activists with a message for the LDS people belong to churches that are mainstream Christian Churches. It is not unique for mainstream Christians to engage in other kinds of activism alsoâ??such as war protests, or other human rights issues. However, most street preachers who address Mormonism come from the more conservative side of Evangelicalism.

Even though many Mormons today consider Christians who claim that Mormons are NOT Christians are a radical minorityâ??this is not the case. See these few examples:

Lutheran Church statement

http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2239

Presbyterian Church (USA) statement

http://www.pcusa.org/pcusa/wmd/eir/mormon.htm

United Methodist

http://archives.umc.org/interior.asp?ptid=2&mid=3558

Evangelical Churches whose independent members give funding to outreaches to LDS people do not do so with a concentrated or centered focus on Mormons alone. Rather, LDS outreaches are viewed as just one of many outreaches to the lost.

Most individual Christians who give money to LDS outreach efforts do so only after a considerable amount of study and comparison of LDS beliefs and culture. They rarely give funding only after hearing one 'anti-Mormon' or ex-Mormon give their personal opinion or testimony.

Most large Evangelical Churches have comparative religion classes in an adult education program that reviews LDS beliefs-- and compares them the Evangelical beliefs roughly once a year. Comparisons to JWs, RCs, Christian Scientists, Islam, and soforth are also concurrently covered. This amount of information is rarely enough to motivate any individual Christian to give money for an outreach.

Generally it is difficult to gain enough interest in the American Evangelical Community to do any kind of outreach toward Mormons. It is a small minority of greatly dispersed Christians that are involved. Many who give money, or get involved in the outreachs are former LDS people- or have some history with Mormonism or have lived in Utah. There is no real concentration with an organized headquarters of radical anti-Mormons who in a single mass meet on a tight regular schedule- with a specific mission toward LDS outreach. Rather, LDS outreach ministries are very small-scattered para-church sorts of organizations. For example when Christians meet at the Manti Pageant it is a grass roots kind of event. Christians come from all over the country of their own accord. However, when they arrive they tend to cluster informally at certain local Evangelical Churches.

Though the development of Evangelical outreaches to LDS people has been slow, the progress profound in its latent effects. Each year there is a growing awareness, attitude and rationale among traditional mainstream Christianity that the LDS religion is NOT Christian in nature, culture, nor in its fundamental beliefs.

[auteur55]

Back in the 1990s, while living in rural Northern Utah, I went door to door with a message about traditional mainstream (Trinitarian) Christianity. This was done in areas where LDS populations were said to be above 90%. It was not well tolerated in the culture. I thought this was ironic since these same communities sent out full time missionaries world-wide to use the same approach.

I think you've uncovered the great cultural flaw in prominent Utah mormon communities. Close mindedness in a religion that thrives on open mindedness.

Just one of the many reasons I don't live in Utah. Were not all like that.

[selek]

Back in the 1990s, while living in rural Northern Utah, I went door to door with a message about traditional mainstream (Trinitarian) Christianity. This was done in areas where LDS populations were said to be above 90%. It was not well tolerated in the culture. I thought this was ironic since these same communities sent out full time missionaries world-wide to use the same approach.

Could you please expound on "what not well tolerated in the culture" means? Were you publically humiliated? Sprayed with water cannons? Attacked by vicious dogs? Offered lukewarm lemonade instead of chilled?

Even though many Mormons today consider Christians who claim that Mormons are NOT Christians are a radical minorityâ??this is not the case. See these few examples:

Lutheran Church statement

http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2239

Presbyterian Church (USA) statement

http://www.pcusa.org/interfaith/study/lds.htm

United Methodist

http://archives.umc.org/interior.asp?ptid=2&mid=3558

And if memory serves, each of these denominations (the Presbyterians especially) are congregations that are dying. They lose membership every year to churches that are either more scripturally sound or more dynamic in the big-box, mega-church vein.

Though the development of Evangelical outreaches to LDS people has been slow, the progress profound in its latent effects. Each year there is a growing awareness, attitude and rationale among traditional mainstream Christianity that the LDS religion is NOT Christian in nature, culture, nor in its fundamental beliefs.

Which is why little-Billy Keller found such dramatic and widespread support following his newletter and appearances on Bill O'Reilly's show.

Me thinks you doth protest too much.

Nonetheless, Aaron Shaf and his ministry are the literal fulfillment of Scripture and prophecy:

Matthew 6:5-

And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets,

that they may be seen of men

. Verily I say unto you,

They have their reward.

[Kenngo1969]

I said if you read THROUGH the threads... there was a following thread explaining myself. In fact I reposted it but you again avoided reading through it for one reason or another ...

I haven't "avoided" reading anything. I just didn't realize you were inviting me on a scavenger hunt. I was, quite naturally, looking for qualification of a statement you made on this thread ... on this thread. (Whodathunk?! ) And contrary to your assertion, I don't generally nitpick (except, perhaps, in jest).

I just happen to think that words mean things; since words mean things, I generally don't think people use words without intending to convey the meanings behind them. I'm generally very precise in my use of language: I generally don't use a word without carefully considering the meaning behind it, and if I don't want to convey that particular meaning, I generally pick another word that more precisely conveys what I want to say. Perhaps this is unrealistic, but I generally proceed on the assumption that most people operate in much that same way, so I look for meaning by considering the words they actually use.

[LifeOnaPlate]

I wonder why people in Utah might react negatively to someone telling them "you're not a Christian."

Still, it is unfortunate that some people might react in a rude un-Christian manner. I always try to treat any door-to-door folks with kindness.

[Kenngo1969]

I would rather they not come to my door unless I invite them. Not even at my sidewalk.

If you're talking about a sidewalk that runs parallel to, and in front of (rather than toward) your house, that ain't gonna fly. Even a sidewalk on so-called "private" property isn't totally private. You've essentially granted an easement by permission (although I'm not sure that's precisely the legal jargon) by letting people use it to pass by in front of your house to get where they're going. Either you let everybody use it for passage, or you don't let anybody use it for passage. If you all of a sudden say, "Nobody can use 'my' sidewalk to pass by in front of my house anymore" or "Only certain people can use 'my' sidewalk to pass by in front of my house from now on," then that violates others' rights (yes, even on "your" property).

And even on a sidewalk that comes toward/is on your property, unless it's posted "Solicitation Prohibited," fenced, or otherwise restricted in its access, you still don't have much of a case.

[charity]

I just happen to think that words mean things; since words mean things, I generally don't think people use words without intending to convey the meanings behind them. I'm generally very precise in my use of language: I generally don't use a word without carefully considering the meaning behind it, and if I don't want to convey that particular meaning, I generally pick another word that more precisely conveys what I want to say. Perhaps this is unrealistic, but I generally proceed on the assumption that most people operate in much that same way, so I look for meaning by considering the words they actually use.

You are being unrealistic. I think people are very careless speakers, and thinkers, in general. I refer you to Edwin Newman, who has written considerably on the topic. One book is "Will America Be The Death of English?"

[Kenngo1969]

You are being unrealistic [in expecting precision in the use of language and in holding people to the meanings of the words they use]. I think people are very careless speakers, and thinkers, in general. I refer you to Edwin Newman, who has written considerably on the topic. One book is "Will America Be The Death of English?"

Perhaps I am being unrealistic, but in an apologetic context, my demand for precision in the use of language is a reaction to the fact that so many of our opponents want to appropriate words for their exclusive use, such as Christian © and .

[Zakuska]

If you're talking about a sidewalk that runs parallel to, and in front of (rather than toward) your house, that ain't gonna fly. Even a sidewalk on so-called "private" property isn't totally private. You've essentially granted an easement by permission (although I'm not sure that's precisely the legal jargon) by letting people use it to pass by in front of your house to get where they're going. Either you let everybody use it for passage, or you don't let anybody use it for passage. If you all of a sudden say, "Nobody can use 'my' sidewalk to pass by in front of my house anymore" or "Only certain people can use 'my' sidewalk to pass by in front of my house from now on," then that violates others' rights (yes, even on "your" property).

And even on a sidewalk that comes toward/is on your property, unless it's posted "Solicitation Prohibited," fenced, or otherwise restricted in its access, you still don't have much of a case.

Aaa... your property line ends at the side walk (at least in Salt Lake) So theres no need of an easement.

[Kenngo1969]

I wonder why people in Utah might react negatively to someone telling them "you're not a Christian."

Because, for all of their professions to the contrary, too many of our non-Mormon Christian

[Kenngo1969]

Aaa... your property line ends at the side walk (at least in Salt Lake) So theres no need of an easement.

That's probably true ... (my property law class was oh-so-long ago!) but either way, you can't very well say, "Nobody can use 'my' sidewalk!"

[MJNSW]

Perhaps I am being unrealistic, but in an apologetic context, my demand for precision in the use of language is a reaction to the fact that so many of our opponents want to appropriate words for their exclusive use, such as Christian

[Kenngo1969]

Oh... and Ken, feel free to ignore me. You obviously cannot comprehend nor handle any of my answers without getting your feathers ruffled. It won't hurt my feelings.

Oh â?¦ My feathers are quite unruffled enough already, so much so that I really donâ??t feel the need to ignore you â?¦ but thank you for your concern! (Now if you, on the other hand, feel it best for your health to ignore me â?¦ thatâ??s the course of action favored by 99% of the posters on this Board, and I commend it to you if you find it necessary â?¦)

Are you considering me an opponent?

And you wonder if my feathers are getting ruffled? That comment wasnâ??t even directed toward you, and was delivered to another poster (Charity) in an entirely different context: I had already addressed you, and was making the point to Charity that words obviously mean things to our non-Christian brothers and sisters, otherwise they wouldnâ??t get so hot-and-bothered about our use of â??theirâ? word, Christian © and .

[maklelan]

Let me step in being a friend and associate of Aaron

Perhaps you, as a friend and associate of Mr. Shafovaloff, could either explain to us why he makes inflammatory remarks and refuses to respond to rebuttals, or explain to him that whatever his tactics are, they are succeeding only in bringing more and more people to distrust him. No one respects a man who, dedicating his and his family's lives to destroying Mormonism, will only offer naked assertions to the public and then run like a squirrel when called upon to defend them. A man who makes such inflammatory and crude accusations and directly refuses to substantiate them is a coward. Is your friend and associate a coward? He sure represents himself that way on this board.

[Doctor Steuss]

If they would like to be consistent (something that Mr. Shafovaloff has demanded from organizations such as the ADL in the past), I know of a Jewish â??templeâ? that is right down the street from my work. I look forward to them picketing it with â??Jesus not Mosesâ? signs.

I wouldnâ??t want him and his ilk to be hypocrites or anything.

Still waiting for my Jesus vs. Zoroaster DVD in the mail.

[urroner]

If they would like to be consistent (something that Mr. Shafovaloff has demanded from organizations such as the ADL in the past), I know of a Jewish â??templeâ? that is right down the street from my work. I look forward to them picketing it with â??Jesus not Mosesâ? signs.

I wouldnâ??t want him and his ilk to be hypocrites or anything.

Still waiting for my Jesus vs. Zoroaster DVD in the mail.

Does anybody protest at the Hindu temple in Utah Valley?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Does anybody protest at the Hindu temple in Utah Valley?

Im there all the time. Kali doesnt like them. SHe commanded me to do it.

[selek]

Ken and Cindy!

Chill! Or I'm taking you both off the cookie/candy list for the next FAIR conference.

At this point, you're arguing personal preference rather than anything objective.

You're also talking past each other and both making a spectacle for the Great Hairless Western Shaf and distracting from his bad behavior with your own.

We're on the same side, let's not forget that.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Ken and Cindy!

Chill! Or I'm taking you both off the cookie/candy list for the next FAIR conference.

At this point, you're arguing personal preference rather than anything objective.

You're also talking past each other and both making a spectacle for the Great Hairless Western Shaf and distracting from his bad behavior with your own.

We're on the same side, let's not forget that.

Can I get an amen brotha!

[Skylla]

Can I get an amen brotha!

Amen.

Ken and Cindy: Disengage.

Skylla

[Kenngo1969]

Chill! Or I'm taking you both off the cookie/candy list for the next FAIR conference.

Iâ??ve never been to a FAIR Conference, but then, I didnâ??t know there were cookies and candy to be had! Mebbe I should make a more concerted effort to fit it into my schedule.

At this point, you're arguing personal preference rather than anything objective.

To the extent that I care (read, â??barelyâ?) I have to mildly disagree with this assessment: I still say that words mean things, and that people choose the words they use according to what purpose theyâ??re trying to achieveâ??or at least, they should. But Iâ??m already on record to that effect, so â?¦

You're also talking past each other and both making a spectacle for the Great Hairless Western Shaf and distracting from his bad behavior with your own.

Again, to the extent that I care (barely), I have to mildly disagree with this assessment, as well. Whatever our disagreements, I donâ??t think that MJNSWs or my behavior compares to that of Mr. Shove-off-a-lot. But if you insist, Iâ??ll quit being so mean by picking on MJNSW and find another target!

We're on the same side, let's not forget that.

Okey dokey, artichokey!

[selek]

Iâ??ve never been to a FAIR Conference, but then, I didnâ??t know there were cookies and candy to be had! Mebbe I should make a more concerted effort to fit it into my schedule.

You won't regret it. High caloric artistry notwithstanding, the brain candy is awfully good, too!

Whatever our disagreements, I donâ??t think that MJNSWs or my behavior compares to that of Mr. Shove-off-a-lot. But if you insist, Iâ??ll quit being so mean by picking on MJNSW and find another target!

Okey dokey, artichokey!

I agree. BTW, Shaf has been lurking in other threads since the light of day has been shone on this one.