The Deeper I Dig The More I Question

[Luigi]

You've taken my words out of the context of the post to which I was responding. Scottie seemed to be asserting that all religious believers -- Mormons included -- are motivated by fear and dread. I was offering myself as an example of one who is not.

You could turn your comments around and say that ex-Mormons, just because they have become disillusioned with the faith, assert that everybody who disagrees with them is running scared.

I misinterpreted your comments. I thought that you were asserting a superior ability to interpret Mormonism because of your long standing status as believing/compliant member and it is clear from your clarification that isn't what you intended. My mistake. Certainly Mormon or Exmormon cannot assert things about Mormonism in general simply because they enjoyed/disliked certain practices of the religion and on that point we seem to agree.

[Luigi]

The "social stigma" of not holding a valid temple recommend is as minimal as it's humanly possible to make it.

No list is announced of who has or who does not have a temple recommend. This is not public knowledge, and I daresay that very few in any given ward will be aware if Brother X or Sister Y doesn't have one.

If this is one of the best pieces of evidence for claiming that Mormonism is based on "fear," I have to say that the argument is looking pretty pathetic.

Everyone can see if someone 'can't' attend a temple wedding, everyone will know if someone 'can't' baptize their son. Everyone can see if someone doesn't take the sacrament. Perhaps you can't understand social pressure and you are indifferent to how others see you and that is a great thing to have. The vast majority of people are sensitive to how other's perceive them and don't like the idea of their family and friends basically receiving an announcement that they are 'unworthy'. My original comment makes it clear that I feel that most members don't intend to make those actions pejorative but I think that doesn't change the fact that it creates considerable social pressure.

The other fear factor, hell, is certainly taught in the LDS church just as all religions, even if it is not as terrible as depicted in other faiths. Again, I explained that I think members feel that they are doing this out of sincere love but that doesn't take the fact away that it is a method using fear.

As I also stated earlier I think that this person needs to forget the fear, evaluate religious 'rules' logically, and do those things he/she feel cultivate positive emotions and do what works for him/her including adopting Mormonism if that is where that path takes him/her.

[Daniel Peterson]

Everyone can see if someone 'can't' attend a temple wedding, everyone will know if someone 'can't' baptize their son. Everyone can see if someone doesn't take the sacrament.

It's a very, very long distance from such cases to the conclusion that Mormonism is based on fear.

Perhaps you can't understand social pressure and you are indifferent to how others see you and that is a great thing to have.

Social pressure exists everywhere, in every society.

It's a vast distance from that to the notion that every society is based on terror.

When the absentee original poster wrote of disagreeing with religions based on fear I don't think he meant to say that "religions based on fear" means "all religions." He was singling out one or more religions from a larger set. It would be redundant to say that I dislike humans with cardiovascular systems. All humans have cardiovascular systems. If, however, somebody says that he dislikes all religions that are based on fear, that seems to allow the inference that some religions aren't.

[Thunderfire]

ALL Christian based religions are fear based. You do what's right because you are afraid of going to hell.

You bring up an interesting point here. In many ways Christian denominations set themselves up as the gate keepers of Gods grace. Meaning, they claim to have the ability to keep you out of heaven by removing you from membership or withholding the sacraments cutting you off from God. So in essence, they are promoting the power of the denomination and not God which is a form of idol worship. This is the "fear", that the church has the power to send you to hell, which it does not.

Yet this is not the same thing as "fearing God" which denotes having respect. We respect God because he is great and merciful. We "fear" not that we must obey or go to hell, rather that we desire to repent what is pleasing to him that we may show love to him who first showed us love.

Anyway, just my thoughts...

In Christ I Serve,

Thunderfire

[T-Shirt]

The whole concept of a judgement is a fear based motivator.

Really? So , do you think it would be fair for God to allow you to suffer consequences without having warned you in advance of those consequences? The first thing you would do is protest that your consequences are unfair since you weren't warned ahead of time.

Should government cease to publicize the consequences of breaking the law? What would happen every time they tried to arrest someone in this case.

T-Shirt

[LifeOnaPlate]

Our government is totally fear based. I only abstain from breaking the speed limit, stealing, etc. because I fear the law.

[Moon Quaker]

The first thing that comes to mind is my friend. He is an RM; fully believes in the church, believes he will be sealed (in the next life) to a woman and have a family but he dreads going to church. He's a closet homosexual, i.e., his family and fellow church members don't know (his church leaders know, though.) He's never done "the deed" with anyone nor does he "live in sin." He simply has [as "the brethren" put it] "same-gender attraction." But he did "confess" to his bishop hoping to make things better. He felt so belittled when they chose to disfellowship him; asking him about anything and everything about his "gayness," being very intrusive. He's embarrassed when he's at church and he is asked to say a prayer or read a passage and all he can say is "I'll pass." So he quit attending altogether and has stopped all activity in the church for almost a year now.

I know some will say, "He's doing this to himself," or "He's depriving himself of blessings by choosing to be less-active." Whatever, that's your opinion. The point of the matter is, he lives in fear. If he didn't feel less-than-human at church, or in conversations with his bishop/leaders, he'd be more than willing to be active again. Unlike other "same-gender attraction"-ed Mormon men who have gone off and "lived in sin" who probably don't care about the church anymore, my friend whole-heartedly believes in the church and abstains from said "sinful" behavior, but he still feels like a second-class citizen at church. The church can revise their "To Gay Men Only" pamphlet (or whatever it's called) all they want; it's not going to change anything.

But I know it's really Mother Goose--er, I mean, the devil--who is putting the fear in his mind, not the church. The church could never do such a thing because we all know the church is perfect (as many have pointed out in this thread; i.e., "What I believe about the church is right; therefore, what you believe about the church is, by default, wrong!")

[LifeOnaPlate]

The first thing that comes to mind is my friend. He is an RM; fully believes in the church, believes he will be sealed (in the next life) to a woman and have a family but he dreads going to church. He's a closet homosexual, i.e., his family and fellow church members don't know (his church leaders know, though.) He's never done "the deed" with anyone nor does he "live in sin." He simply has [as "the brethren" put it] "same-gender attraction." But he did "confess" to his bishop hoping to make things better. He felt so belittled when they chose to disfellowship him; asking him about anything and everything about his "gayness," being very intrusive. He's embarrassed when he's at church and he is asked to say a prayer or read a passage and all he can say is "I'll pass." So he quit attending altogether and has stopped all activity in the church for almost a year now.

I know some will say, "He's doing this to himself," or "He's depriving himself of blessings by choosing to be less-active." Whatever, that's your opinion. The point of the matter is, he lives in fear. If he didn't feel less-than-human at church, or in conversations with his bishop/leaders, he'd be more than willing to be active again. Unlike other "same-gender attraction"-ed Mormon men who have gone off and "lived in sin" who probably don't care about the church anymore, my friend whole-heartedly believes in the church and abstains from said "sinful" behavior, but he still feels like a second-class citizen at church. The church can revise their "To Gay Men Only" pamphlet (or whatever it's called) all they want; it's not going to change anything.

But I know it's really Mother Goose--er, I mean, the devil--who is putting the fear in his mind, not the church. The church could never do such a thing because we all know the church is perfect (as many have pointed out in this thread; i.e., "What I believe about the church is right; therefore, what you believe about the church is, by default, wrong!")

He probably drinks Nyquil, too, eh?

I don't envy his position, and regret that some may feel that alienation. It can happen to anyone who struggles with any number of temptations, etc.

[Deborah]

He simply has [as "the brethren" put it] "same-gender attraction."

If all he did was have same sex attraction he shouldn't have been disfellowshipped. I think the church has made it clear that having those feelings is not grounds for discipline. There is more to the story. If he feels belittled it is because of his own guilt. Disfellowshipment can actually be a blessing for someone who is struggling and needs a time to get things together. I think it is an interesting point that no one else knew about his situation and continued to ask him to pray, which speaks to the confidentiality of the situation.

[LifeOnaPlate]

Agreed; Having conflicts with same-gender attraction is not grounds for disfellowshipment.

[Daniel Peterson]

The church could never do such a thing because we all know the church is perfect (as many have pointed out in this thread; i.e., "What I believe about the church is right; therefore, what you believe about the church is, by default, wrong!")

Ah, the joys of straw-man construction!

The real point is that, while certain folks have claimed that fear is a dominant element in Mormonism, no active Latter-day Saints here seem to agree with that or to have felt or noticed the all-pervading terror. That fact appears to cast doubt upon the claim made by certain folks here, that fear is a dominant element in Mormonism.

Perhaps, of course, we're all lying. Or perhaps the statements here are unrepresentative, and we are the victims of a rather spectacular sampling error. Neither of those options seems likely.

[Scottie]

I would like to point out that I'm not saying that fear is necessarily a bad thing. It is just a natural part of consequence based religions. Any religion that espouses a paradise or torment type of afterlife with some kind of judgement by a supreme being is going to instill fear to some degree into the members.

Most of us don't go 90mph down the freeway because of the fear of what will happen should we be caught. Could we most likely drive safely going this fast. I would say yes. If we KNEW there were no officers in the next 10 miles, would we most likely drive 90? I know I would. It is the fear of the consequences that keep us in line.

As for all religions being fear based, this just isn't true. Many religions are based in self improvement for the mere fact of bettering yourself. That this life is a journey and at the end, we should be able to look back and smile, proud of the way we lived. Not lying on our death bed hoping we're not headed for a good roasting.

[Zakuska]

Hmmm.... well then you just excluded the Unitarian Mormonism from the picture. Since ALL men are saved in the LDS skeem of things.

[jerryp48]

I think fear mostly comes from within. I have plenty of it but I don't think that the church is responsible for it. I'd say we are a very optimistic religion. If anything the church inspires hope and happiness.

Oh and if you don't believe that you're going to hell!

[Calm]

Most of us don't go 90mph down the freeway because of the fear of what will happen should we be caught. Could we most likely drive safely going this fast. I would say yes. If we KNEW there were no officers in the next 10 miles, would we most likely drive 90? I know I would. It is the fear of the consequences that keep us in line.

That is the difference between having an internal moral guide/motivator (this isn't the correct term, but I can't recall the proper psychological term for this idea of where one looks for guidance) and an externally imposed one. There are those of us who don't speed because we have in essence given our word not to when we take on a driver's license and those who don't speed because they don't want to be caught.

I am not fearful of being caught speeding because I don't speed.

[Maidservant]

LOL, if you are going to use speeding as the example. I would speed too . . .

However, I think there is just a level that needs to be added to your idea.

While its true that law enforcement officers are what make me slow down, and I go ahead and speed if I'm confident they won't be about, and certainly this is fear or at least a sense of being aware of consequences (fines) I would definitely want to avoid --

But for both you and I (in the speeding example) --

The consequence of being pulled over, fines, whatever in regards to law enforcement is actually an ADDED logical consequence and it is a protection against the FUNDAMENTAL, ACTUAL, NATURAL consequence.

The actual consequence of speeding is injury or death to ourselves or others in possible situations. THAT is the LAW. That is what a healthy respect -- still not FEAR per say, but okay, I'll use the word,-- injury and death should be feared.

But your local highway patrol don't want to have to be involved at the point where the natural consequence to speeding kicks in -- it's too hazardous for humans; so a protective LAW at a spectrum point earlier than the hazard is placed -- the speed limit law and the civil authority they have to pull us over (are you driving Scottie ur am I? ).

I think this parable could be applied to the rule making and enforcing that occurs with parents and with God/ in the church. Perhaps if you have a healthy respect (fear) in regards to the consequence of losing your temple recommend, maybe you won't go so far as to act in a way/ have a collision of, say, losing your family as a result of choices one may make.

I don't think I expressed myself well here, sorry. Make of it what you will.

[Moon Quaker]

The church could never do such a thing because we all know the church is perfect (as many have pointed out in this thread; i.e., "What I believe about the church is right; therefore, what you believe about the church is, by default, wrong!")

Ah, the joys of straw-man construction!

I honestly was not making a strawman. Do I believe the church intentionally puts fear into the hearts of its members (or ex-members)? No. Do I believe TBMs when they say the church is not a religion of fear? Of course I believe them; I was a TBM once myself. Do I believe my "same-gender attraction"-ed friend lives in fear? Yes.

When I generically attributed the following statement to TBMs:

"What I believe about the church is right; therefore, what you believe about the church is, by default, wrong!" I was merely [derisively] expressing that everyone has his/her opinion about how he/she thinks the church runs.

Any active Scientologist will tell you how wonderful Scientology. Many ex-Scientologists will tell you otherwise (and probably being very much along the lines of the OP, but regarding Scientology, of course.) And many non/never-Scientologists will see Scientology as a decent and good organization, whereas other non/never-Scientologists will see Scientology as a cult that prays on its members fears. Who's right? Who's wrong? IMHO, it's subjective, same with the church.

[Olavarria]

Dont get me wrong, I care deeply about the after life. I want to grow up to be just like my Big Brother. At the same time, I have come to the realization that what ever He decrees is just. No one gets ripped off in the final judgement, neither us or God.

God is Love. What He does for us, He does because He loves us. We should all learn to do the same. When you love Heavenly Father and the Savior, you do what They say. You want to please Them, and you dont care what it is. Obediance becomes the only true expression of your love. Just love God. If you love Him you'll keep the commandments.

[Thama]

The first thing that comes to mind is my friend. He is an RM; fully believes in the church, believes he will be sealed (in the next life) to a woman and have a family but he dreads going to church. He's a closet homosexual, i.e., his family and fellow church members don't know (his church leaders know, though.) He's never done "the deed" with anyone nor does he "live in sin." He simply has [as "the brethren" put it] "same-gender attraction." But he did "confess" to his bishop hoping to make things better. He felt so belittled when they chose to disfellowship him; asking him about anything and everything about his "gayness," being very intrusive. He's embarrassed when he's at church and he is asked to say a prayer or read a passage and all he can say is "I'll pass." So he quit attending altogether and has stopped all activity in the church for almost a year now.

I know some will say, "He's doing this to himself," or "He's depriving himself of blessings by choosing to be less-active." Whatever, that's your opinion. The point of the matter is, he lives in fear. If he didn't feel less-than-human at church, or in conversations with his bishop/leaders, he'd be more than willing to be active again. Unlike other "same-gender attraction"-ed Mormon men who have gone off and "lived in sin" who probably don't care about the church anymore, my friend whole-heartedly believes in the church and abstains from said "sinful" behavior, but he still feels like a second-class citizen at church. The church can revise their "To Gay Men Only" pamphlet (or whatever it's called) all they want; it's not going to change anything.

But I know it's really Mother Goose--er, I mean, the devil--who is putting the fear in his mind, not the church. The church could never do such a thing because we all know the church is perfect (as many have pointed out in this thread; i.e., "What I believe about the church is right; therefore, what you believe about the church is, by default, wrong!")

If he, in fact, is not acting upon his attraction, then it is his leaders, and not him, who need to be subjected to a disciplinary council.

[Calm]

God is Love. What He does for us, He does because He loves us. We should all learn to do the same. When you love Heavenly Father and the Savior, you do what They say. You want to please Them, and you dont care what it is. Obediance becomes the only true expression of your love. Just love God. If you love Him you'll keep the commandments.

It comes down to a matter of trust and love, imo. No need to fear the consequences if you form your beliefs around those. I think the Church is very strong in promoting this source of motivation as opposed to fear based ones. All one has to do is to go into Primary and listen to the children talk about Heavenly Father, their Elder Brother Jesus, families being together forever, feeling and listening to the Spirit, sharing their beliefs and love with others through missionary work, family history and other services, singing songs of "love one another" etc.

[LifeOnaPlate]

Ah, the joys of straw-man construction!

I honestly was not making a strawman. Do I believe the church intentionally puts fear into the hearts of its members (or ex-members)? No. Do I believe TBMs when they say the church is not a religion of fear? Of course I believe them; I was a TBM once myself. Do I believe my "same-gender attraction"-ed friend lives in fear? Yes.

When I generically attributed the following statement to TBMs:

"What I believe about the church is right; therefore, what you believe about the church is, by default, wrong!" I was merely [derisively] expressing that everyone has his/her opinion about how he/she thinks the church runs.

Any active Scientologist will tell you how wonderful Scientology. Many ex-Scientologists will tell you otherwise (and probably being very much along the lines of the OP, but regarding Scientology, of course.) And many non/never-Scientologists will see Scientology as a decent and good organization, whereas other non/never-Scientologists will see Scientology as a cult that prays on its members fears. Who's right? Who's wrong? IMHO, it's subjective, same with the church.

Ultimate truth isn't really subjective, is it?

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I have been a member for many years. I guess I have been a simple minded member and have pretty much aligned myself with every teaching of the church exercising complete faith and moving what I believed to be forward. The truth is, I can no longer subscribe to fear-based religion of any kind. Any religion that uses fear as a way to control the masses is in my opinion in error. When I started questioning fear as a way to play on the emotions of the innocent masses, I started questioning other teachings of the church. SNIP Oh this is just the beginning of many discoveries which begged the question "IS MORMONISM JUST ANOTHER RELIGION?"

No discussion of temple content, please.

No fear here...has someone threatened you? Send them to me I strighten them out!

Pa Pa

[TrespassersW]

I feel very strongly that it is right, and appropriate, for individuals to be held accountable for their actions. Justice, as it were, is a good and worthwhile principle.

I also feel very strongly that among those who are trying to better themselves, mercy is also appropriate and desirable.

Up until now, I kind of expected most of the rest of the population to share those basic beliefs. I find it extremely odd (and a bit baffling) that some here seem to characterize those beliefs as being "based in fear".

[T-Shirt]

Most of us don't go 90mph down the freeway because of the fear of what will happen should we be caught. Could we most likely drive safely going this fast. I would say yes. If we KNEW there were no officers in the next 10 miles, would we most likely drive 90? I know I would. It is the fear of the consequences that keep us in line.

You still haven't answered my question. Should all organizations, whether it be a church , government, family, etc. stop telling people what the consequences will be if they chose to break the rules or chose to do something foolish?

If I told you to follow a certain, very long, path all the way to the end, you will find a pot of gold, but decided not to tell you that if you ever strayed off the path, even just a little, you would risk being eaten by grizzly bears, would that be a wise thing for me to do? And, if I did tell you about the grizzly bears, does it then become a fear based motivation for finding the gold?

When is it appropriate to warn someone of the consequences of their actions and when is it not appropriate?

T-Shirt

[LifeOnaPlate]

You still haven't answered my question. Should all organizations, whether it be a church , government, family, etc. stop telling people what the consequences will be if they chose to break the rules or chose to do something foolish?

If I told you to follow a certain, very long, path all the way to the end, you will find a pot of gold, but decided not to tell you that if you ever strayed off the path, even just a little, you would risk being eaten by grizzly bears, would that be a wise thing for me to do? And, if I did tell you about the grizzly bears, does it then become a fear based motivation for finding the gold?

When is it appropriate to warn someone of the consequences of their actions and when is it not appropriate?

T-Shirt

Aye an excellent parable.

People can call it fear-based, I guess. God tells us about cause and effect. If you do X, Y will result. Commandments are really directions in cause and effect, and I say, if you have fear, the wrong type of fear, you don't have the Spirit of God in your religion.

Brother Brigham, if you please, take it away:

"Are the people going to fear? If fear is in the hearts of any of you, it is because you do not pray often enough; or when you do pray you are not sufficiently humble before the Lord. You do not plead with Him until your will is swallowed up in His. If every one of the Latter-day Saints lived up to their privileges, they would not fear the world, and all that they can do, any more than they fear that the cranes, that fly croaking three quarters of a mile above them, will drop their eggs upon them to dash their brains out. You might as well fear that event, as to fear all the forces of hell, if the people were sanctified before the Lord, and would do His will every day." (Journal of discourses, 2:248-259.)

I swear to you, I really do way-more-than-half-believe it when I say that somewhere love and justice shine, cynicism falls asleep, tyranny talks to itself, sappy slogans all come true, we forget to feed our fear.