The Deeper I Dig The More I Question

[Scott Lloyd]

I don't sense that at all in myself. Nor do I sense it in my family and in my neighbors and Mormon acquaintances.

To me and, I think, to many others, the gospel is wonderful good news. We do right because we want to live with God in the celestial kingdom and to inherit the blessings he promises us, far more than we do it in order to escape the torments of hell. (Personally, I seldom if ever even think of hell.) And, more fundamentally, we do right because we love God, love his gospel, and love the good. The celestial kingdom attracts me because of the prospect of perfect sociality with the saints and with God. In the words of one of my favorite hymns,

Sweet is the work, my God, my King,

To praise Thy Name, give thanks and sing,

To show Thy love by morning light

And talk of all Thy truth at night.

Sweet is the day of sacred rest,

No mortal cares shall seize my breast.

O may my heart in tune be found,

Like Davidâ??s harp of solemn sound!

My heart shall triumph in my Lord

And bless His works and bless His Word.

Thy works of grace, how bright they shine!

How deep Thy counsels, how divine!

And then what triumphs shall I raise

To Thy dear Name through endless days,

When in the realms of joy I see

Thy face in full felicity.

Nice thought, Daniel, but if my experience a moment ago is any indication, Scottie will now shift into sarcasm mode and spew out something about an "amazingly thought-provoking response."

[Alf O'Mega]

I see nothing in the cited passage that is inconsistent with the reverence/awe connotation of the word.

The word fear doesn't appear in the passage I quoted. But it's clear that Abraham is as jumpy as a long-tailed cat at a rocking chair convention.

[Scott Lloyd]

The word fear doesn't appear in the passage I quoted. But it's clear that Abraham is as jumpy as a long-tailed cat at a rocking chair convention.

I didn't say the word does appear in the passage. But what I draw from it is the concept of awe and reverence, not dread.

[Scottie]

Nice thought, Daniel, but if my experience a moment ago is any indication, Scottie will now shift into sarcasm mode and spew out something about an "amazingly thought-provoking response."

No, he did have a thought provoking response.

[Scott Lloyd]

No, he did have a thought provoking response.

More eloquently expressed, to be sure, but the same message was communicated.

[Scottie]

I don't sense that at all in myself. Nor do I sense it in my family and in my neighbors and Mormon acquaintances.

Have you ever been an apostate? Believe me. It is the truth.

To me and, I think, to many others, the gospel is wonderful good news. We do right because we want to live with God in the celestial kingdom and to inherit the blessings he promises us, far more than we do it in order to escape the torments of hell. (Personally, I seldom if ever even think of hell.) And, more fundamentally, we do right because we love God, love his gospel, and love the good. The celestial kingdom attracts me because of the prospect of perfect sociality with the saints and with God.

I would agree that there are those that are not afraid of hell and do what they are told because they want to. This is the same in any religion. This doesn't mean the religion isn't based in fear.

I often hear the argument, "If you are atheist, what keeps you from stealing/raping/murdering/etc." In other words, "I fear the eternal torment of hell that would result if I did those horrible things. If I did not have that fear, I would do them. Since I fear hell, that is the only thing keeping me from doing them. You don't fear eternal punishment, so what is keeping you from doing them?"

[Scott Lloyd]

Have you ever been an apostate? Believe me. It is the truth.

Why would the sentiment of an apostate indicate that those who adhere to the faith do so out of fear?

This makes no sense.

[Maidservant]

You do what's right because you are afraid of going to hell.

I don't. I also don't do what is right in exchange for getting to the celestial kingdom. I might sometimes do what is right to avoid experiencing hell on earth. (By the way, in LDS there is no hell, as is sectarianly conceived.)

Why do you think that so many of my friends and family are distraught over my apostasy? Because they are AFRAID that I'm going to hell. I know that as a teenager I woke up terrified in cold sweats after having dreams of dying and not being worthy...even though looking back, I wasn't doing ANYTHING that I should have been worried about.

Well, as you've reported this experience in your family, if my family treated me this way about anything, I would think that they were at worst, not living the gospel themselves; and at best, allowing their love for me to translate into irrational fear for me. Again, a lot of families struggle with operating from improper priniciples of how to be a family. I'm not sure how they can be afraid you are going to hell, since there is no hell in LDS (per say).

I seem to remember something about wishing a mountain would fall on me rather than face my redeemer at the judgement seat. Can't remember who said that, but it is oft repeated. How is this not inspiring fear?

No, I'm sorry, but the impossible goal of perfection and the punishments for not attaining this are all too well ingrained in the LDS psyche.

Got a great quote from an LDS psychologist (obviously not doctrine): "Perfection is like the star by which I chart my course; I have not failed in this life in not reaching the star, only in not charting the course."

I think a great many people in the Church struggle with and misunderstand the doctrine of perfection, and it sounds like you and your family are no different. Please be gentle with yourself and your family.

http://www.lds.org/portal/site/LDSOrg/menu..._&hideNav=1

This link above may be of interest. However, I looked a bit on LDS.org for the article/ speech I really wanted and couldn't find it. Does anyone recall during one general conference, where one speaker gave sort of a list and an explanation for a variety of motives to obey or serve, beginning with the least good reason and ending with the most righteous reason? I would like that link here or in a new thread. Thanks.

[Scottie]

Why would the sentiment of an apostate indicate that those who adhere to the faith do so out of fear?

This makes no sense.

Are you following the conversation??

I stated that as an apostate, my friends and family are overly concerned and AFRAID of my eternal damnation. Fear.

DCP stated that he has not seen this at all in himself, friends or family.

However, having never been an apostate, I'm not sure he's qualified to speak on the subject. I have seen it in spades. Thus my comment.

[LifeOnaPlate]

I often hear the argument, "If you are atheist, what keeps you from stealing/raping/murdering/etc." In other words, "I fear the eternal torment of hell that would result if I did those horrible things. If I did not have that fear, I would do them. Since I fear hell, that is the only thing keeping me from doing them. You don't fear eternal punishment, so what is keeping you from doing them?"

I say that line of reasoning is ridiculous, and you ought not take it seriously, or believe the LDS Church would as a body, or even a majority, I daresay, offer such a question.

My comment still remains, though, scott, what makes fear the most common motive? You have asserted such, if I understand you correctly, and I would like to know your reasoning behind this.

By the way, who's to say your friends/family aren't just saddened or concerned? Why is it fear in yor behalf rather than other emotions like these?

[Maidservant]

BTW, Scottie, leaving the church doesn't make you an apostate. Also, your statement can be made in the reverse that just because some people experience fear in a church doesn't negate the fact that it is actually love-based.

I wish you the best.

[Daniel Peterson]

Have you ever been an apostate? Believe me. It is the truth.

What is the truth? That some apostate feels fear or once felt fear? I can't speak to that. But if you're asking me to believe that my faith is based on fear simply because somebody else claims it is, I'm afraid I can't do that. It would be like admitting that I hate apple pie merely because some stranger claims I do.

I would agree that there are those that are not afraid of hell and do what they are told because they want to. This is the same in any religion. This doesn't mean the religion isn't based in fear.

Thus far, I don't think any practicing, believing Latter-day Saint here has agreed with this characterization of our faith. I certainly don't. And I doubt that even a handful of my Latter-day Saint friends and acquaintances would, either.

I often hear the argument, "If you are atheist, what keeps you from stealing/raping/murdering/etc." In other words, "I fear the eternal torment of hell that would result if I did those horrible things. If I did not have that fear, I would do them. Since I fear hell, that is the only thing keeping me from doing them. You don't fear eternal punishment, so what is keeping you from doing them?"

That strikes me as a mere caricature and distortion of a much more substantial argument.

I find the notion that my faith is rooted in fear simply absurd. And nothing you can say is going to cause me to reject my personal experience in favor of your claims. I haven't experienced Mormonism that way and I don't understand Mormonism that way, and I can't think of anybody whose opinion I trust who would agree with you.

I don't know your family. I can't judge even whether you are accurately representing them. My overwhelming sense when thinking about people I know who have rejected the gospel is sadness. I don't think fear enters into it, in my case, even slightly.

[LifeOnaPlate]

What is the truth? That some apostate feels fear or once felt fear? I can't speak to that. But if you're asking me to believe that my faith is based on fear simply because somebody else claims it is, I'm afraid I can't do that. It would be like admitting that I hate apple pie merely because some stranger claims I do.

Thus far, I don't think any practicing, believing Latter-day Saint here has agreed with this characterization of our faith. I certainly don't. And I doubt that even a handful of my Latter-day Saint friends and acquaintances would, either.

That strikes me as a mere caricature and distortion of a much more substantial argument.

I find the notion that my faith is rooted in fear simply absurd. And nothing you can say is going to cause me to reject my personal experience in favor of your claims. I haven't experienced Mormonism that way and I don't understand Mormonism that way, and I can't think of anybody whose opinion I trust who would agree with you.

I don't know your family. I can't judge even whether you are accurately representing them. My overwhelming sense when thinking about people I know who have rejected the gospel is sadness. I don't think fear enters into it, in my case, even slightly.

geez Dan, steal my thoughts, eh? Have you learned your "A B Cs" yet?

[Luigi]

As one who has never strayed from the faith, I affirm that you are wrong as it pertains to Mormonism.

I think it is interesting that some assert that because they have always obeyed and enjoyed Mormonism that everyone who disagrees with them (about Mormonism) is wrong. That would be like me saying everyone thinks I'm charming because everyone who doesn't think I'm charming is just jealous.

[Scottie]

I say that line of reasoning is ridiculous, and you ought not take it seriously, or believe the LDS Church would as a body, or even a majority, I daresay, offer such a question.

Perhaps not. It may just be the vocal minority that throws these questions out.

My comment still remains, though, scott, what makes fear the most common motive? You have asserted such, if I understand you correctly, and I would like to know your reasoning behind this.

I may have to eat a little crow here. I was going to use the comparison of how many times hell is mentioned vs heaven in the scriptures, however, heaven is referenced 492 times where hell is only referenced 95 times. I know that as a general rule, talks are not of the fire and brimstone type, but much more uplifting.

However, that being said, and I can only speak for myself here, but it only took one or two comments by GA's to ingrain the concept of be perfect or go to hell. The "God can not look upon sin with the least degree of tolerance" has always stuck with me.

The whole concept of a judgement is a fear based motivator.

By the way, who's to say your friends/family aren't just saddened or concerned? Why is it fear in yor behalf rather than other emotions like these?

But why would they be saddened or concerned? Because of the fear that I'm going to hell? Why aren't they happy for me, thinking only that I have started a journey on a new, different path, but I am still a good, moral, kind person and will find my own path back to heaven?

[Scottie]

What is the truth? That some apostate feels fear or once felt fear? I can't speak to that.

This isn't what I'm talking about. I'm saying that because I am an apostate, my friends and family are AFRAID of what my eternal salvation would be. Why would they be afraid if Mormonism wasn't built around fear?

Lets refer back to the "Is God Lying to us thread". In there, JS points out that God has purposfully let man believe that Eternal punishment meant punishment that lasted forever, instead of the real meaning, which is God's punishment. God even said, in so many words, that He did this to create fear!!

[Scott Lloyd]

I think it is interesting that some assert that because they have always obeyed and enjoyed Mormonism that everyone who disagrees with them (about Mormonism) is wrong. That would be like me saying everyone thinks I'm charming because everyone who doesn't think I'm charming is just jealous.

You've taken my words out of the context of the post to which I was responding. Scottie seemed to be asserting that all religious believers -- Mormons included -- are motivated by fear and dread. I was offering myself as an example of one who is not.

You could turn your comments around and say that ex-Mormons, just because they have become disillusioned with the faith, assert that everybody who disagrees with them is running scared.

[LifeOnaPlate]

Perhaps not. It may just be the vocal minority that throws these questions out.

I may have to eat a little crow here. I was going to use the comparison of how many times hell is mentioned vs heaven in the scriptures, however, heaven is referenced 492 times where hell is only referenced 95 times. I know that as a general rule, talks are not of the fire and brimstone type, but much more uplifting.

The whole concept of a judgement is a fear based motivator.

But why would they be saddened or concerned? Because of the fear that I'm going to hell? Why aren't they happy for me, thinking only that I have started a journey on a new, different path, but I am still a good, moral, kind person and will find my own path back to heaven?

Interesting stats, good call on the references.

Could they be saddened or concerned because they love you, and if what they believe is true, they may be sad that you might not live up to the potential you posess?

[Calm]

the LDS religion also uses social stigma through, for example, not allowing temple recommends to non compliant members or requesting them to not partake of the sacrament.

And yet there is no public announcement to draw attention of others to either of these things and it is quite possible for both of these to occur to someone with others not knowing anything about it (as there are other reasons for not taking the sacrament and there is no way for an individual member to keep track of others' temple attendance.)

I have never heard anyone comment on someone else's not taking the sacrament or temple attendance in all my 45+ years of attending church and I certainly have been involved in many discussions about people's lives--new babies, jobs, problems with kids, etc.

So if the reason for these types of restrictions are the force that the social stigma brings to bear to change someone's behaviour, then the LDS Church is doing a really, really poor job in using it.

[Daniel Peterson]

I think it is interesting that some assert that because they have always obeyed and enjoyed Mormonism that everyone who disagrees with them (about Mormonism) is wrong.

That would be like me saying everyone thinks I'm charming because everyone who doesn't think I'm charming is just jealous.

It's like people who love the Swiss Alps saying that those who dislike Switzerland and describe it as an arid desert island in the South China Sea are wrong.

[LifeOnaPlate]

It's like people who love the Swiss Alps saying that those who dislike Switzerland and describe it as an arid desert island in the South China Sea are wrong.

It's like ra-ee-aaain on your wedding day; the free riiiiide that ya just didn't take.

By the way; the church may not use fear, but it definitely causes it when some people are asked to speak in sacrament meeting.

[Daniel Peterson]

I'm saying that because I am an apostate, my friends and family are AFRAID of what my eternal salvation would be. Why would they be afraid if Mormonism wasn't built around fear?

First of all, I don't know whether you're accurately characterizing your family's attitudes. I'm only hearing your account of them, and I have no particular reason to trust you to interpret their emotional states for me.

Secondly, even if you were, I would respond that your family would not seem to be typical in this regard.

Thirdly, why would the resident of room 332 in the mental hospital be afraid of doorknobs if doorknobs weren't designed to be fearsome? (Answer: There might be any number of reasons. Someone's fears may or may not be a good indicator of the actual nature of the thing that person fears. Plenty of people are terrified of mice, garden snakes, and hamsters.)

[Daniel Peterson]

the LDS religion also uses social stigma through, for example, not allowing temple recommends to non compliant members or requesting them to not partake of the sacrament.

The "social stigma" of not holding a valid temple recommend is as minimal as it's humanly possible to make it.

No list is announced of who has or who does not have a temple recommend. This is not public knowledge, and I daresay that very few in any given ward will be aware if Brother X or Sister Y doesn't have one.

If this is one of the best pieces of evidence for claiming that Mormonism is based on "fear," I have to say that the argument is looking pretty pathetic.

[Deborah]

Having been a member for over 40 years I can testify that I have known only love and kindness from church leaders, even at a time when I was fearful to talk to them because I knew that I had done something wrong. Fear is usually based on guilt, sometimes legitimate and sometimes not.

I have to agree with others that the more I learn the more my faith is increased, mainly because of the great accomplishments of the church and its people in spite of the people being very human and error prone.

[William James]

I have been a member for many years. I guess I have been a simple minded member and have pretty much aligned myself with every teaching of the church exercising complete faith and moving what I believed to be forward. The truth is, I can no longer subscribe to fear-based religion of any kind. Any religion that uses fear as a way to control the masses is in my opinion in error. When I started questioning fear as a way to play on the emotions of the innocent masses, I started questioning other teachings of the church. SNIP Oh this is just the beginning of many discoveries which begged the question "IS MORMONISM JUST ANOTHER RELIGION?"

No discussion of temple content, please.

Any religion which teaches that we have a moral obligation to behave a certain way and that punishment of some kind will come as a consequence of us acting contrary to our moral obligations is, in my opinion, necessarily a religion which is in part based upon fear. That, however, embraces practically every religion. Religions are, by definition, organizations with a philosophy about how we ought to act and what we ought to believe. There is nothing wrong with that whatsoever.

That being said, there do exist, in my opinion, improper threats or punishments which extend beyond what I consider to be acceptable. First and foremost, the threat of punishment (either in the form of church discipline, becoming a social outcast, or eternal damnation or other punishment in the next life) flowing from a person honestly researching facts or history (i.e., reading non-faith-promoting/non-approved literature) is improper. LDS missionaries, for example, ought not to be prohibitted from reading anti-LDS books, even if the effect is that they lose their "testimony." Next in line after freedom of inquiry and freedom of thought, I believe that there must generally be freedom of conscience on matters which are faith-based and which do not have a solid scientific, secular based rationale.

Example 1: Prohibition against church members engaging in rape is totally proper; rape infringes upon the human rights of another person. Example 2: Preaching that young men who masturbate are unworthy to pass the sacrament is highly damaging and teaches young men to hate their sexuality and to either lie or to distance themselves from the church.

The second example, in my opinion, highlights fear as a tool in the church. Ordinary people are faced with the constant feeling of not being "worthy," and they face the threat of being ostracized if others find out. (Granted, many bishops are very much on the benevolent side of the spectrum on this issue, even though they are still wrong.)