Adieu

[Homestar Runner]

What I find interestesting is that "adieu" is used only once

1. Edgar Allan Poe only used 'adieu' once in his "Tales of the Grotesque and Arabesque" Should we find that interesting as well? Should we find reason to doubt Poe's story? 'Adieu' is also found once and only once in the following:

Stowe, Harriet Beecher, 1811-1896 : Uncle Tom's Cabin

Hawthorne, Nathaniel : The Gentle Boy

Cooper, James Fenimore: Precaution [Vol 1]

Cooper, James Fenimore: The Spy [Vol 1]

Cooper, James Fenimore: The Spy [Vol 2]

Cooper, James Fenimore: The Pioneers [Vol 1]

Cooper, James Fenimore: The Pioneers [Vol 2]

Cooper, James Fenimore: The Prairie [Vol 1]

Cooper, James Fenimore: Jack Tier [Vol 1]

2. From Bernard Gui in the thread I quoted above, the BoM uses the following terms only once as well:

Liquors

Privation

skirts

divulge

carcass

double

garner

merely

sink

upright

warrior

stretches

generosity

conquerors

Should we also find this 'interesting'? Why should we?

I don't get it.

HSR

[poulsenll]

Oi Vey!

Combien de temps est-ce que ceci continuera ?

Pourquoi est-ce que je dois toujours parler anglais ?

Assez d

[poulsenll]

What I find interestesting is that "adieu" is used only once while "farewell" is used numerous times and conveys the message quite well in english. Why does this particular french word(which means farewell) have to be used to convey the same meaning when an english word seems to be the common standard? What makes this particular passage in Jacob so different that it is the only time that the word "adieu" is used throughout the Book of Mormon? I mean from a consistency stand point- it stands out. That's what's interesting to me. I guess if it was used more often throughout the scriptures it would be less interesting to me.

Alma 37:47

My son, farewell.

Alma 38:15

My son, farewell.

Ether 12:38

And now I, Moroni, bid farewell unto the Gentiles, yea, and also unto my brethren whom I love, until we shall meet before the judgment-seat of Christ, where all men shall know that my garments are not spotted with your blood.

Jacob 6:13

Finally, I bid you farewell, until I shall meet you before the pleasing bar of God, which bar striketh the wicked with awful dread and fear.

Moroni 8:30

Farewell, my son, until I shall write unto you, or shall meet you again.

Moroni 10:34

And now I bid unto all, farewell.

In the first place adieu does not mean farewell. It means I commend you to God just as goodbye means "God be with ye".

It means more than wishing someone well, it is putting them in the hands of God.

Larry P

[DonBradley]

What I find interestesting is that "adieu" is used only once while "farewell" is used numerous times and conveys the message quite well in english. Why does this particular french word(which means farewell) have to be used to convey the same meaning when an english word seems to be the common standard? What makes this particular passage in Jacob so different that it is the only time that the word "adieu" is used throughout the Book of Mormon? I mean from a consistency stand point- it stands out. That's what's interesting to me.

Yeah! So why here?

Looking at the "farewell" at the end of Chapter 6 suggests a possibility: simple stylistic variation on the part of the author or translator. Having bid a "final" "farewell" to the reader at the end of the previous chapter, and then having added another chapter, he may not have wanted to repeat the same send-off in this chapter--both to avoid repetition and to assuage a slight embarrassment.

I think it's common to do this sort of thing. If, for instance, I announced I was leaving the board and said "Goodbye," but then decided to add another post, I may not want to repeat "Goodbye" again--especially since my last "Goodbye" wasn't a real one after all.

This wouldn't provide a complete explanation. As noted by other posters, "adieu" evidently captured what the author wanted to say, and it was in common enough usage in the 19th century to be quite familiar. And there's probably a good deal more that could be brought to bear on this little point of the text.

Don

[DonBradley]

In the first place adieu does not mean farewell. It means I commend you to God just as goodbye means "God be with ye".

It means more than wishing someone well, it is putting them in the hands of God.

Like this?

Jacob 6:13

Finally, I bid you farewell, until I shall meet you before the pleasing bar of God, which bar striketh the wicked with awful dread and fear.

It seems that farewell is used here in a longer phrase that expresses much of the same meaning.

Don

[Scott Lloyd]

What I find interestesting is that "adieu" is used only once while "farewell" is used numerous times and conveys the message quite well in english. Why does this particular french word(which means farewell) have to be used to convey the same meaning when an english word seems to be the common standard? What makes this particular passage in Jacob so different that it is the only time that the word "adieu" is used throughout the Book of Mormon? I mean from a consistency stand point- it stands out. That's what's interesting to me. I guess if it was used more often throughout the scriptures it would be less interesting to me.

Alma 37:47

My son, farewell.

Alma 38:15

My son, farewell.

Ether 12:38

And now I, Moroni, bid farewell unto the Gentiles, yea, and also unto my brethren whom I love, until we shall meet before the judgment-seat of Christ, where all men shall know that my garments are not spotted with your blood.

Jacob 6:13

Finally, I bid you farewell, until I shall meet you before the pleasing bar of God, which bar striketh the wicked with awful dread and fear.

Moroni 8:30

Farewell, my son, until I shall write unto you, or shall meet you again.

Moroni 10:34

And now I bid unto all, farewell.

As I have pointed out twice now, adieu means "(I commend you) to God." Farewell does not carry the meaning of commending one to God (although goodbye does). Therefore, farewell and adieu are not precisely equivalent in meaning, even though both are expressions of parting.

[DonBradley]

As I have pointed out twice now, adieu means "(I commend you) to God." Farewell does not carry the meaning of commending one to God (although goodbye does). Therefore, farewell and adieu are not precisely equivalent in meaning, even though both are expressions of parting.

Understood. But this doesn't account for the unique (i.e., sole) usage of the term in the Book of Jacob. Was Jacob the only one in the book who wished to commend others to God?

Don

[sailgirl7]

1. Edgar Allan Poe only used 'adieu' once in his "Tales of the Grotesque and Arabesque" Should we find that interesting as well? Should we find reason to doubt Poe's story? 'Adieu' is also found once and only once in the following:

...

Should we also find this 'interesting'? Why should we?

I don't get it.

HSR

It's not my business to tell you or anyone else what to find "interesting". I said it was interesting to me- and that is my opinion. I'm not telling anyone else what to think.

Are Poe, Stowe and Hawthorne prophets of God translating ancient scripture into english or just poets and novelists? Is this what they call a "red herring"?

Liquors

Privation

skirts

divulge

carcass

double

garner

merely

sink

upright

warrior

stretches

generosity

conquerors

Also- do these words have a standard english counterpart that is used throughout the scriptures in their place? No? Then we can't really compare things that are not comparable can we?

In the first place adieu does not mean farewell. It means I commend you to God just as goodbye means "God be with ye".

Those pesky dictionaries always telling me lies:

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source

a

[Scott Lloyd]

Understood. But this doesn't account for the unique (i.e., sole) usage of the term in the Book of Jacob. Was Jacob the only one in the book who wished to commend others to God?

Don

Probably not. But this may have been the sole instance in the book where "adieu" would have approached being a precise translation of the actual wording that was used.

It's not my business to tell you or anyone else what to find "interesting". I said it was interesting to me- and that is my opinion. I'm not telling anyone else what to think.

Are Poe, Stowe and Hawthorne prophets of God translating ancient scripture into english or just poets and novelists? Is this what they call a "red herring"?

Also- do these words have a standard english counterpart that is used throughout the scriptures in their place? No? Then we can't really compare things that are not comparable can we?

Those pesky dictionaries always telling me lies:

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source

a

[sailgirl7]

Word etymologies should not be ignored, especially when we are discussing precision in translation.

That makes me wonder: does this rule apply 100% of the time? If not when should or shouldn't it? Is the Book of Mormon a precise translation? What's your definition of the word "precise"? I'm serious- I'm not trying to be difficult- that really makes me have questions. It's off topic so you don't have to answer.Sorry for derailing the thread. Carry on.

Great discussion.

[DonBradley]

You're not derailing the thread, SailorGirl. I appreciate your contribution.

Scott, I do think the etymologies matter in interpretation, but only insofar as they affect present use of a word. I'm certain that in the case of "adieu," its origin did influence how the term was used; but there's a limit to how much the etymology can illuminate its use. The connotations and contexts of its ordinary usage can be explored further.

Perhaps you're right, and this use of "adieu" is the only place where the underlying meaning would best be expressed. Or perhaps it was a stylistic, or other, choice on the part of the author or translator.

Thanks to all who are putting in their thoughts. I appreciate it.

Don

[Scott Lloyd]

That makes me wonder: does this rule apply 100% of the time? If not when should or shouldn't it? Is the Book of Mormon a precise translation? What's your definition of the word "precise"? I'm serious- I'm not trying to be difficult- that really makes me have questions. It's off topic so you don't have to answer.Sorry for derailing the thread. Carry on.

Great discussion.

I don't believe perfect precision in translation is possible, even when the translation has been brought forth by the gift and power of God, as with the Book of Mormon. But ideally, the translator does the best he/she can.

Nor should word history be a controlling factor in determining whether to use one word over another. As you suggest, what the word communicates currently is perhaps the more important consideration.

But etymology does have a bearing. And the fact that adieu has the connotation -- in the original French, at least -- of commending readers to God's care, does make it preferable in my mind over farewell, if that is indeed Jacob's intended meaning.

As has been noted in other posts here, goodbye carries essentially the same meaning as adieu but it may not have been acceptable because the meaning has evolved so that it does not carry the same "feeling."

[TrespassersW]

Looking at the "farewell" at the end of Chapter 6 suggests a possibility: simple stylistic variation on the part of the author or translator. Having bid a "final" "farewell" to the reader at the end of the previous chapter, and then having added another chapter, he may not have wanted to repeat the same send-off in this chapter--both to avoid repetition and to assuage a slight embarrassment.

I was just going to suggest that. Though I was going to add that it is possible that Jacob could have employed two different expression that both essentially translate to "farewell", but Joseph felt this seemed awkward in English, so translated one of them as "Adieu."

That is the way it comes across to me, anyway.

[Doctor Steuss]

[...]Adieu was in Webster's 1828 dictionary[...]

Anyone have the definition from this dictionary?

[DonBradley]

I don't believe perfect precision in translation is possible, even when the translation has been brought forth by the gift and power of God, as with the Book of Mormon. But ideally, the translator does the best he/she can.

Nor should word history be a controlling factor in determining whether to use one word over another. As you suggest, what the word communicates currently is perhaps the more important consideration.

But etymology does have a bearing. And the fact that adieu has the connotation -- in the original French, at least -- of commending readers to God's care, does make it preferable in my mind over farewell, if that is indeed Jacob's intended meaning.

Exactly. Etymology is important insofar as it affects the connotations of the term. In this case, I think it overwhelmingly likely that "adieu" was commonly understood to mean "to God," so it is highly relevant to the term's use and intended meaning.

It seems to me that this would make it a form of "farewell" particularly well suited to religious contexts, and particularly to a sort of "farewell till Judgment Day."

Don

[sailgirl7]

Anyone have the definition from this dictionary?

Here we go:

Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913 + 1828)

ARTFL > Webster's Dictionary > Searching for adieu:

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Displaying 1 result(s) from the 1828 edition:

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ADIEU'', Adu''.

Farewell; an expression of kind wishes at the parting of friends.

ADIEU'', n. A farewell, or commendation to the care of God; as an everlasting adieu.

So in that dictionary of the times of Joseph Smith- there seems to have been a definition that "adieu" meant farewell.

Also here is "farewell" from the 1828 Websters:

Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913 + 1828)

ARTFL > Webster's Dictionary > Searching for farewell:

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Displaying 1 result(s) from the 1828 edition:

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FA''REWELL, a compound of fare, in the imperative, and well. Go well; originally applied to a person departing, but by custom now applied both to those who depart and those who remain. It expresses a kind wish, a wish of happiness to those who leave or those who are left.

The verb and adverb are often separated by the pronoun; fare you well; I wish you a happy departure; may you be well in your absence.

It is sometimes an expression of separation only. Farewell the year; farewell ye sweet groves; that is, I take my leave of you.

FA''REWELL, n.

1. A wish of happiness or welfare at parting; the parting compliment; adieu.

2. Leave; act of departure.

And takes her farewell of the glorious sun.

Before I take my farewell of the subject.

Notice how it lists as a meaning the word "adieu". Which to me suggests a kind of interchangability.

[poulsenll]

My how our language has changed in modern days.

Here are the meanings in 1828 and the changes by 1913.

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Displaying 1 result(s) from the 1828 edition:

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ADIEU'', Adu''.

Farewell; an expression of kind wishes at the parting of friends.

ADIEU'', n. A farewell, or commendation to the care of God; as an everlasting adieu.

Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary

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Displaying 2 result(s) from the 1913 edition:

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Adieu (Page: 21)

A*dieu" (#), interj. & adv. [OE. also adew, adewe, adue, F. dieu, fr. L. ad to + deus God.] Good-by; farewell; an expression of kind wishes at parting.

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Adieu (Page: 21)

A*dieu", n.; pl. Adieus (#). A farewell; commendation to the care of God at parting. Shak.

Someone already posted the modern meanings.

Larry P

[poulsenll]

There is no question that adieu is a form of farewell but in 1828 it was used as a commendation to God where today it does not necesarily have that meaning unless you are aware of its literal translation to English. In Joseph Smith's time, French was the language of international diplomacy and the world was more religios than today. Most educated people spoke some French and therefore the more literal translation and use of french words in English were better understood than they are today when English has become the international language of business and diplomacy.

Larry P

[sailgirl7]

There is no question that adieu is a form of farewell but in 1828 it was used as a commendation to God where today it does not necesarily have that meaning unless you are aware of its literal translation to English. In Joseph Smith's time, French was the language of international diplomacy and the world was more religios than today. Most educated people spoke some French and therefore the more literal translation and use of french words in English were better understood than they are today when English has become the international language of business and diplomacy.

Larry P

Yes -in 1828 adieu is defined as a NOUN as being a commendation to the care of God. It also has a use as an interjection.

In Jacob what form is the word used?

27 And I, Jacob, saw that I must soon go down to my grave; wherefore, I said unto my son aEnos: Take these bplates. And I told him the things which my brother Nephi had ccommanded me, and he promised obedience unto the commands. And I make an end of my writing upon these plates, which writing has been dsmall; and to the reader I bid farewell, hoping that many of my brethren may read my words. Brethren, adieu.

So let's be precise. In this translation is adieu being used as a noun?

Also- I'd have to CFR for the rest your assertions- I would like to know where I could find that the world was more religious in Joseph's day and that he and those around him would have been more aware of literal translations of french words then they are today. Thank you.

[mnn727]

Interesting thought.

I would point out, though, that by Joseph Smith's time, the word had already become fairly thoroughly anglicized (someone has already pointed out that it was in the 1828 dictionary) and would not have been regarded as being all that foreign in nature.

Also, he was born in Vermont and living in upstate New York both of which are close to Quebec

[DonBradley]

In Joseph Smith's time, French was the language of international diplomacy and the world was more religios than today.

Indeed, one might even say it was the lingua franca of the times.

Don

[ed2276]

Would it have been less of a problem had the translator chosen to employ the word goodbye? The two words convey nearly identical meanings, those being an expression at parting of commending someone to the care of God. Is it implausible that there was an expression with a similar meaning in the Nephite language?

I'm wondering if the BoM had come forth in England and JS was English if he would have ended with "cheerio"?

[T-Shirt]

If you notice, in verse 27, the word "farewell" and the word "adieu" are used, very close to each other. My guess is that either Joseph Smith chose not to use the same word twice with so few words separating them or Jacob actually used two different words.

27 And I, Jacob, saw that I must soon go down to my grave; wherefore, I said unto my son Enos: Take these plates. And I told him the things which my brother Nephi had commanded me, and he promised obedience unto the commands. And I make an end of my writing upon these plates, which writing has been small; and to the reader I bid farewell, hoping that many of my brethren may read my words. Brethren, adieu.

I don't think it needs to be any more complicated than that. It is interesting that the French translation uses, "adieu" twice in this verse.

T-Shirt

[poulsenll]

If you notice, in verse 27, the word "farewell" and the word "adieu" are used, very close to each other. My guess is that either Joseph Smith chose not to use the same word twice with so few words separating them or Jacob actually used two different words.

I don't think it needs to be any more complicated than that. It is interesting that the French translation uses, "adieu" twice in this verse.

T-Shirt

Interestingly enough, the Spanish version uses two different words. Me despido and Adios. Me despido literally means I take my leave and of course adios is a direct translation of adieu.

Did Jacob used two different words to avoid repetition or did he use two different words because the first was directed to the readers because he is taking his leave of them and the second was directed to his brethren whom he wished to commend to God?

Larry P

[Bsix]

I believe that the word "adieu" was common enough in Joseph Smith's time that it could reasonably be used in the Book of Mormon.

It has been used in English Bible translations.

Thomas Jefferson used it in the Declaration of Independence until a different concept was substituted in a late draft.

John Wesley uses the word in his personal correspondence.

It was used in English translations from French in contemporary Protestant hymns of Joseph Smith's time.

Sir Walter Scott even wrote a poem titled "Rover's Adieu."

The word is used several times in Shakesphere's plays.

It was in the Webster's dictionary of the era.

In fact, the the famed English scholar William Whiston chose to use the word "adieu" for farewell in his translation of "The Life of Josephus Flavius" from the Latin original.

Regards,

Six