Adieu

[DonBradley]

No, I'm not leaving, though I am planning to spend less time here.

Nor am I going to parrot the common criticism that the Book of Mormon's use of "adieu" means it cannot be a translation from Hebrew or Egyptian. I've never thought that criticism had any merit, since "adieu" is a French term that has entered English usage and could thus be employed by an English-speaking translator.

However, there is an "adieu problem" in the Book of Mormon: Why did the author or translator choose to employ this particular term? How commonly was it used in the English of Joseph Smith's time and place? In what sort of circumstances? And by what sort of person?

What does its use tell us about what was meant to be conveyed, about the author or translator himself, and about how he viewed the occasion of its use?

Thoughts? Insights? Wild hypotheses?

Don

Clarification:

"Problem" as used above means "issue" or "question." I'm referring to a problem of interpretation, a question to be solved by research, not to an objection to the Book of Mormon as a translation.

[The_Monk]

Thoughts? Insights? Wild hypotheses?

Don

I really hope you've looked through the lengthy past threads on this.

Adieu was in Webster's 1828 dictionary, and I believe a letter from either JS' mother or Emma uses it as well.

[Scott Lloyd]

No, I'm not leaving, though I am planning to spend less time here.

Nor am I going to parrot the common criticism that the Book of Mormon's use of "adieu" means it cannot be a translation from Hebrew or Egyptian. I've never thought that criticism had any merit, since "adieu" is a French term that has entered English usage and could thus be employed by an English-speaking translator.

However, there is an "adieu problem" in the Book of Mormon: Why did the author or translator choose to employ this particular term? How commonly was it used in the English of Joseph Smith's time and place? In what sort of circumstances? And by what sort of person?

What does its use tell us about what was meant to be conveyed, about the author or translator himself, and about how he viewed the occasion of its use?

Thoughts? Insights? Wild hypotheses?

Don

Would it have been less of a problem had the translator chosen to employ the word goodbye? The two words convey nearly identical meanings, those being an expression at parting of commending someone to the care of God. Is it implausible that there was an expression with a similar meaning in the Nephite language?

[StriplingWarrior]

The job of a translator is to use words that we know today, to express what people back then wrote down. There are many threads as well as excellent articles, FAIR in particular, that talk about this. I'd go there.

[Hammer]

No, I'm not leaving, though I am planning to spend less time here.

Nor am I going to parrot the common criticism that the Book of Mormon's use of "adieu" means it cannot be a translation from Hebrew or Egyptian. I've never thought that criticism had any merit, since "adieu" is a French term that has entered English usage and could thus be employed by an English-speaking translator.

However, there is an "adieu problem" in the Book of Mormon: Why did the author or translator choose to employ this particular term? How commonly was it used in the English of Joseph Smith's time and place? In what sort of circumstances? And by what sort of person?

What does its use tell us about what was meant to be conveyed, about the author or translator himself, and about how he viewed the occasion of its use?

Thoughts? Insights? Wild hypotheses?

Don

I have an idea. You know how when you are speaking to someone and you feel like using a foreign word or salutation rather than the every day Hello, or good bye? We might say aloha or chow etc.

I wonder if Jacob used a foreign word from his language to say good bye and therefore this particular goodbye, to give the same dramatic effect, JS used a foreign word comparable in his day?

[Paul Ray]

Oi Vey!

Combien de temps est-ce que ceci continuera ?

Pourquoi est-ce que je dois toujours parler anglais ?

Assez d

[Hammer]

Oi Vey!

Combien de temps est-ce que ceci continuera ?

Pourquoi est-ce que je dois toujours parler anglais ?

Assez d

[Scott Lloyd]

I have an idea. You know how when you are speaking to someone and you feel like using a foreign word or salutation rather than the every day Hello, or good bye? We might say aloha or chow etc.

I wonder if Jacob used a foreign word from his language to say good bye and therefore this particular goodbye, to give the same dramatic effect, JS used a foreign word comparable in his day?

Interesting thought.

I would point out, though, that by Joseph Smith's time, the word had already become fairly thoroughly anglicized (someone has already pointed out that it was in the 1828 dictionary) and would not have been regarded as being all that foreign in nature.

[cdowis]

I have an idea. You know how when you are speaking to someone and you feel like using a foreign word or salutation rather than the every day Hello, or good bye? We might say aloha or chow etc.

I wonder if Jacob used a foreign word from his language to say good bye and therefore this particular goodbye, to give the same dramatic effect, JS used a foreign word comparable in his day?

wow.

Very nice.

[Paul Ray]

Oh really!

In case you don't know, and are curious, you can find out what I said by using this...

http://babelfish.altavista.com/

[Sethbag]

I think Paul just called Don a tard, but I'm not 100% sure of my translation.

[Doctor Steuss]

Oi Vey!

Combien de temps est-ce que ceci continuera ?

Pourquoi est-ce que je dois toujours parler anglais ?

Assez d

[Hammer]

Interesting thought.

I would point out, though, that by Joseph Smith's time, the word had already become fairly thoroughly anglicized (someone has already pointed out that it was in the 1828 dictionary) and would not have been regarded as being all that foreign in nature.

I don't agree. I mean, yes it was popularly used, but still not English. I don't say adieu just every day. I use it for certain situations which I feel warrent it. That is my point here, not whether or not it was unfamiliar.

Quite often I use the 'bitta' please when I want my boys to listen up. It is for effect. This is what I think Jacob was doing and JS used a comparable word for effect.

[Doctor Steuss]

Thoughts? Insights? Wild hypotheses?

Don

I think adieu probably conveys what the author truly meant: "to God"

[Paul Ray]

Hebrew ---> French ---> Spanish

So, mixing Spanish with English is "Spanglish"... what would this be? "Spanchrew"?

Why should Spanish get top billing?

I like to think of it as Hebranishench, or Hebrenchanish, personally.

So what if something gets lost in the translation?

You can always ask the source of all truth, or even me, personally.

[Scott Lloyd]

I don't agree. I mean, yes it was popularly used, but still not English. I don't say adieu just every day. I use it for certain situations which I feel warrent it. That is my point here, not whether or not it was unfamiliar.

Quite often I use the 'bitta' please when I want my boys to listen up. It is for effect. This is what I think Jacob was doing and JS used a comparable word for effect.

I understand what you are saying.

But "bitta" is not in English dictionaries -- either in 1828 or now. Adieu was/is, indicating that by 1828, it had already become a normative expression in the English language and was no longer being regarded as strictly a foreign word.

Today -- and, I presume, back then, given the frequency with which the word was used in literature and correspondence -- a typical English speaker could be expected to understand immediately the meaning of "adieu." Not so with "bitta" or other foreign expressions that might occasionally creep into conversation.

[Sargon]

Would it have been less of a problem had the translator chosen to employ the word goodbye? The two words convey nearly identical meanings, those being an expression at parting of commending someone to the care of God. Is it implausible that there was an expression with a similar meaning in the Nephite language?

I am no authority on French, but I've always felt that adieu and goodbye held different meanings. Yes they are both a form of farewell, but using adieu in an english sentence just seems to convey a different feeling.

Jacob 7: 27

27 And I, Jacob, saw that I must soon go down to my grave; wherefore, I said unto my son aEnos: Take these bplates. And I told him the things which my brother Nephi had ccommanded me, and he promised obedience unto the commands. And I make an end of my writing upon these plates, which writing has been dsmall; and to the reader I bid farewell, hoping that many of my brethren may read my words. Brethren, goodbye.

Jacob 7: 27

27 And I, Jacob, saw that I must soon go down to my grave; wherefore, I said unto my son aEnos: Take these bplates. And I told him the things which my brother Nephi had ccommanded me, and he promised obedience unto the commands. And I make an end of my writing upon these plates, which writing has been dsmall; and to the reader I bid farewell, hoping that many of my brethren may read my words. Brethren, adios.

Jacob 7: 27

27 And I, Jacob, saw that I must soon go down to my grave; wherefore, I said unto my son aEnos: Take these bplates. And I told him the things which my brother Nephi had ccommanded me, and he promised obedience unto the commands. And I make an end of my writing upon these plates, which writing has been dsmall; and to the reader I bid farewell, hoping that many of my brethren may read my words. Brethren, tchau.

Jacob 7: 27

27 And I, Jacob, saw that I must soon go down to my grave; wherefore, I said unto my son aEnos: Take these bplates. And I told him the things which my brother Nephi had ccommanded me, and he promised obedience unto the commands. And I make an end of my writing upon these plates, which writing has been dsmall; and to the reader I bid farewell, hoping that many of my brethren may read my words. Brethren, catch ya later.

I think adieu is fitting of Jacob's tone.

Sargon

[Hammer]

I understand what you are saying.

But "bitta" is not in English dictionaries -- either in 1828 or now. Adieu was/is, indicating that by 1828, it had already become a normative expression in the English language and was no longer being regarded as strictly a foreign word.

Today -- and, I presume, back then, given the frequency with which the word was used in literature and correspondence -- a typical English speaker could be expected to understand immediately the meaning of "adieu." Not so with "bitta" or other foreign expressions that might occasionally creep into conversation.

I wasn't going for a word comparable to adieu in usage. I was going for the """"EEEEFFFFFFEEEECCCCTTTTT""""" okay? Hopefully this time it will get through. Come on, I have tried to get this point of EFFECCTT through twice and both come up with knitpicking that doesn't even address my point, just my examples.

[DonBradley]

Whoa! Hold on. Please allow me to clarify what I meant by "problem." I did not mean "problem for Book of Mormon historicity." I tried to make this clear at the start, but apparently failed. I see no reason whatsoever why the phrase couldn't be used by an English speaker to translate a Hebrew or Egyptian term.

The "problem" to which I refer is a research problem: The challenge is for the interpreter or researcher to figure out why "adieu" was used in preference to an English expression. Was it because adieu was very frequently used by everyone in Joseph Smith's milieu that he chose to translate (or compose) the text with this term? Was it because "adieu" was used in certain contexts--e.g., religious? Was "adieu" more commonly used in certain types of literature, or by certain types of person--e.g., does it appear more in letters, comic usage, narratives, everyday farewells; by the educated; by the poor; by clergy?

BTW, the Lucy Mack Smith letter using "adieu" was actually a Hoffman forgery. It has no bearing on the question at hand.

Don

[Paul Ray]

Instead of thinking of the word "adieu" as one of the words of that day, which it was, I tend to think of it more as a word which was familiar to Joseph, personally, and the environment he lived in.

Joseph had been living in New York, close to a big city where he could interact with some immigrants.

He had to be familiar with the word, personally, where he was living, personally, to know to use it.

... because it wasn't used in the Book of Mormon.

[Hammer]

Whoa! Hold on. Please allow me to clarify what I meant by "problem." I did not mean "problem for Book of Mormon historicity." I tried to make this clear at the start, but apparently failed. I see no reason whatsoever why the phrase couldn't be used by an English speaker to translate a Hebrew or Egyptian term.

The "problem" to which I refer is a research problem: The challenge is for the interpreter or researcher to figure out why "adieu" was used in preference to an English expression. Was it because adieu was very frequently used by everyone in Joseph Smith's milieu that he chose to translate (or compose) the text with this term? Was it because "adieu" was used in certain contexts--e.g., religious? Was "adieu" more commonly used in certain types of literature, or by certain types of person--e.g., does it appear more in letters, comic usage, narratives, everyday farewells; by the educated; by the poor; by clergy?

BTW, the Lucy Mack Smith letter using "adieu" was actually a Hoffman forgery. It has no bearing on the question at hand.

Don

Like Sargon, I believe it was used to depict feeling, to give a certain effect on the audience.

[Scott Lloyd]

I am no authority on French, but I've always felt that adieu and goodbye held different meanings. Yes they are both a form of farewell, but using adieu in an english sentence just seems to convey a different feeling.

I think adieu is fitting of Jacob's tone.

Sargon

I agree that adieu conveys a different feeling than goodbye, especially as the words are used today. Such is often the result of evolution in meaning and connotation.

But if you check the word etymologies, you will find that they are nearly identical in original meaning. Goodbye is a contraction of "God be with ye." Adieu in the French means "(I commend you) to God."

[Homestar Runner]

How commonly was it used in the English of Joseph Smith's time and place? In what sort of circumstances? And by what sort of person?

Bernard Gui did some research of the use of "adieu" from Joseph Smith's contemporaries. Read this post, and the one after. The word "adieu" appears in Fennimore Cooper's "The Last of the Mohicans". And Charlotte Bronte's "Shirley". And Bret Harte's "Under the Eaves". And William Makepeace Thackery's "The Notch on the Ax". And John Keats' "Epistle to my Brother George". And Anthony Trollope's "Barchester Towers". And Elizabeth Barrett Browning's, "Elizabeth Leigh". And Nathaniel Hawthorne's "The Blithedale Romance" and his "The House of Seven Gables".

Mark Twain used the word 'adieu'. Jane Austen used it. Charles ****ens used it. Washington Irving, Edgar Allen Poe, Herman Melville, Sir Walter Scott, Harriet Beecher Stowe, Louisa May Alcott, and Jules Verne used it.

Bernard went on to list 77 other books (written before the BoM was published) containing 'adieu'. One is tempted to be led to the conclusion that Americans in the 1800's not only knew what the word meant, but actually used it. However, since the 'adieu criticism' is basically a religion in itself, I'm certain we'll continue to encounter faithful adherents for years to come.

HSR

(Most importantly, you can find the word 3 times in Solomon Spaulding's "Manuscript Found". )

[sailgirl7]

What I find interestesting is that "adieu" is used only once while "farewell" is used numerous times and conveys the message quite well in english. Why does this particular french word(which means farewell) have to be used to convey the same meaning when an english word seems to be the common standard? What makes this particular passage in Jacob so different that it is the only time that the word "adieu" is used throughout the Book of Mormon? I mean from a consistency stand point- it stands out. That's what's interesting to me. I guess if it was used more often throughout the scriptures it would be less interesting to me.

Alma 37:47

My son, farewell.

Alma 38:15

My son, farewell.

Ether 12:38

And now I, Moroni, bid farewell unto the Gentiles, yea, and also unto my brethren whom I love, until we shall meet before the judgment-seat of Christ, where all men shall know that my garments are not spotted with your blood.

Jacob 6:13

Finally, I bid you farewell, until I shall meet you before the pleasing bar of God, which bar striketh the wicked with awful dread and fear.

Moroni 8:30

Farewell, my son, until I shall write unto you, or shall meet you again.

Moroni 10:34

And now I bid unto all, farewell.

[Homestar Runner]

You can also find "adieu" in the Bible, you just have to search for the right translation.

In the "J.B. Rotherham Emphasized Bible" translation:

Luke 9:61

Luke 14:33

Acts 18:18

Acts 18:21

In the Darby Translation:

Luke 9:61

2 Corinthians 2:13

HSR