What Is The Great And Abominable Church?

[Catholic Girl]

I don't know what you consider "rank-and-file," but I'm guessing the ward I attend, located in the southern end of the Salt Lake Valley, about 15 miles from Salt Lake City, would qualify.

Some months ago, during a lesson in priesthood meeting, I had occasion to express my view similar to what I have given on this message board regarding this topic. Several in the class chimed in to agree with me, and, from what I could tell, there was universal assent to what I said. A couple of people in the class even went so far as to bring up the McConkie quote and take issue with it.

The notion that participants on this board are somehow out of step with the "rank and file" of the Church is a rather persistant myth.

I meant exactly what I said....rank and file members---those faithful active members that do not spend time at apologetics sites, and especially those that were old enough to purchase and read "Mormon Doctrine" by McConkie when it first came out.

My in-laws and extended family are THE PERFECT example of what I am referencing. They won't waste a breath telling you that "The Great and Abominable Church" referenced in Nephi is indeed the Roman Catholic Church. And THEIR families do the same.

So I suppose THEY are the only glaring exception and are out-of-step? My father-in-law is a bishop. You'd think he'd know better, right?

Like I said before, it will take at least another generation or more until this "change" of definition is complete. (However, I think it is clearly not a change at all, it is still a definition that very clearly still INCLUDES the Catholic Church...it's just that in this new definition it appears to be just IMPLIED thus to be more PC and purposely more vague as to hopefully not deter potential converts).

Really, Scott--I'd like you to point out to me where/how this definition EXCLUDES the Catholic Church and her Protestant daughters.

[urroner]

I meant exactly what I said....rank and file members---those faithful active members that do not spend time at apologetics sites, and especially those that were old enough to purchase and read "Mormon Doctrine" by McConkie when it first came out.

My in-laws and extended family are THE PERFECT example of what I am referencing. They won't waste a breath telling you that "The Great and Abominable Church" referenced in Nephi is indeed the Roman Catholic Church. And THEIR families do the same.

So I suppose THEY are the only glaring exception and are out-of-step? My father-in-law is a bishop. You'd think he'd know better, right?

Like I said before, it will take at least another generation or more until this "change" of definition is complete. (However, I think it is clearly not a change at all, it is still a definition that very clearly still INCLUDES the Catholic Church...it's just that in this new definition it appears to be just IMPLIED thus to be more PC and purposely more vague as to hopefully not deter potential converts).

Really, Scott--I'd like you to point out to me where/how this definition EXCLUDES the Catholic Church and her Protestant daughters.

Are corrupt members of the Mormon Church also member of the G&AC?

[simply_disappear]

As requested, I didn't vote. But when I was an LDS missionary in South America, I often used 1 Nephi 13 and the 3rd discussion as the "deal breaker" to follow up on the 2nd discussion's invitation to baptism. If investigators didn't accept the LDS belief (or my understanding of it) about the great apostasy and the Great and Abominable Church (=everybody else's religion practiced without restored priesthood authority) then there was little chance of progressing towards baptism.

So, you vetoed God's power to produce results using the Holy Spirit....hmmmm

Not good. I wonder how many people you chased away using your veto powers there?

[The Dude]

So, you vetoed God's power to produce results using the Holy Spirit....hmmmm

Not good. I wonder how many people you chased away using your veto powers there?

Oh, I probably overstated things a bit. There were exceptions, but there was a major problem with "mere friendliness" in the areas I served. The mission president urged us to separate the serious people from the eternal investigators. This was one way to do it (I mentioned it here because it seemed relevant to the thread).

Don't forget, efficient missionary work employs business principles, not just spiritual principles. Similarly, the cable TV company has stopped offering me discounted introductory rates because they've figured out that I won't be hooked into a high rate once the discount runs out. I just cancel it when they raise the rate after 4 months. From their end, this is the same principle as I described above. You stop fooling around with people who aren't serious.

[Pahoran]

I meant exactly what I said....rank and file members---those faithful active members that do not spend time at apologetics sites, and especially those that were old enough to purchase and read "Mormon Doctrine" by McConkie when it first came out.

My in-laws and extended family are THE PERFECT example of what I am referencing. They won't waste a breath telling you that "The Great and Abominable Church" referenced in Nephi is indeed the Roman Catholic Church. And THEIR families do the same.

So I suppose THEY are the only glaring exception and are out-of-step? My father-in-law is a bishop. You'd think he'd know better, right?

Like I said before, it will take at least another generation or more until this "change" of definition is complete. (However, I think it is clearly not a change at all, it is still a definition that very clearly still INCLUDES the Catholic Church...it's just that in this new definition it appears to be just IMPLIED thus to be more PC and purposely more vague as to hopefully not deter potential converts).

Really, Scott--I'd like you to point out to me where/how this definition EXCLUDES the Catholic Church and her Protestant daughters.

I'm not Scott, but I'll be happy to oblige.

1 Nephi 14:

9 And it came to pass that he said unto me: Look, and behold that great and abominable church, which is the mother of abominations, whose founder is the devil.

Please note that the Catholic Church was not founded by the devil. Whatever influence the devil may have had in its history, it was originally founded by the apostles, who were authorised by Jesus Christ, but fell away from the pure original Gospel. Now note this:

1 Nephi 14:

10 And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.

Question: when has there ever been a time in the history of the world when there were "save two churches only," if we take "churches" to mean "denominations?" Answer: never.

This passage makes it abundantly clear that, whoever or whatever those "two churches only" might be, they cannot be actual denominations.

Question: who does the angel say belongs to the GAC?

Answer: "whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God." Not "those d----d papists."

The thirteen Looks of Nephi, like the parallel thirteen O's of Jacob, constitute a single and rather magnificent literary unit. To pick out a single passage and try to interpret it without reference to the rest, is foolish and can only lead to error.

Feel free to share this with your alleged in-laws. Only I suggest you first remove the bits you put in, so as not to offend them by your hubristic arrogance and chutzpah, whereby you presume to interpret our(!) scripture to us(!) as if you, of all people, were qualified to do so.

Frankly, in all my years in the Church, in many wards and stakes in two countries, and with all the Americans I met, lived with, laboured with, and discussed the Gospel with, I never once met anyone who thought like your alleged in-laws. Isn't that strange??!!?

Regards,

Pahoran

[Hammer]

Are corrupt members of the Mormon Church also member of the G&AC?

of course

[johnny]

Pahoran,

I'm not Scott, but I'll be happy to oblige.

I am not Catholic Girl, but I'll be happy to oblige.

Please note that the Catholic Church was not founded by the devil. Whatever influence the devil may have had in its history, it was originally founded by the apostles, who were authorised by Jesus Christ, but fell away from the pure original Gospel.

Infant baptism was practiced by those who founded the early Christian Church. The Book of Mormon says that infant baptism is a "evil abomination." Do you believe that the devil has influence on those in the Catholic Church who believe in infant baptism?

Question: when has there ever been a time in the history of the world when there were "save two churches only," if we take "churches" to mean "denominations?" Answer: never.

Question: Do you believe that those who believe in the concept of infant baptism will be thrust down to hell?

The Book of Mormon reveals that those who believe in the false concept of infant baptism will be thrust down to hell.

Frankly, in all my years in the Church, in many wards and stakes in two countries, and with all the Americans I met, lived with, laboured with, and discussed the Gospel with, I never once met anyone who thought like your alleged in-laws. Isn't that strange??!!?

In all your years in the Mormon Church have you every meet anyone who thought like Bruce R. McConkie, he said that those who baptize little children will be thrust down to hell (Ensign, Apr. 1977, 3 -- see link below)?

http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Mag...plates$3.0

Regards,

johnny

[Catholic Girl]

26 And after they go forth by the hand of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, from the Jews unto the Gentiles, thou seest the formation of that great and abominable church, which is most abominable above all other churches; for behold, they have taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away.

So which "church" is the "most abominable above all other 'churches' in your new definition? If you try to apply it, it won't make sense.

28 Wherefore, thou seest that after the book hath gone forth through the hands of the great and abominable church, that there are many plain and aprecious things taken away from the book, which is the book of the Lamb of God.

Now who compiled and preserved the Bible?

Yeah.

Plus, adding in what Johnny cited.....it appears you have other passages and definitions yet to revise to whitewash the widely taught and accepted interpretation in Nephi that the Catholic Church is indeed The Great and Abominable Church/Church of the Devil and other such colorful names.

Frankly, in all my years in the Church, in many wards and stakes in two countries, and with all the Americans I met, lived with, laboured with, and discussed the Gospel with, I never once met anyone who thought like your alleged in-laws. Isn't that strange??!!?

"Alleged in-laws"? Did you just accuse me of lying?

I'll tell you what, I would have NO interest in Mormons whatsoever if I weren't related to them.

[urroner]

Now who compiled and preserved the Bible?

Several of the Early Church Fathers complained that the Jews had deleted scriptures and changed others that alluded to Christ. In the DSS, there are several different versions of Isaiah and Jeremiah.

In fact, in the days of Josiah, scripture was drastically overhauled and modified.

So Catholic Girl, why don't you tell us who compiled and preserved the Bible?

[johnny]

urroner,

So Catholic Girl, why don't you tell us who compiled and preserved the Bible?

The Catholic Church teaches:

120 - It was by the apostolic Tradition that the Church discerned which writings are to be included in the list of the sacred books. This complete list is called the canon of Scripture. It includes 46 books for the Old Testament (45 if we count Jeremiah and Lamentations as one) and 27 for the New.

105 - God is the author of Sacred Scripture. The divinely revealed realities, which are contained and presented in the text of Sacred Scripture, have been written down under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. For Holy Mother Church, relying on the faith of the apostolic age, accepts as sacred and canonical the books of the Old and the New Testaments, whole and entire, with all their parts, on the grounds that, written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, they have God as their author, and have been handed on as such to the Church herself

[BCSpace]

1 Nephi 14:

10 And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.

Question: when has there ever been a time in the history of the world when there were "save two churches only," if we take "churches" to mean "denominations?" Answer: never.

This passage makes it abundantly clear that, whoever or whatever those "two churches only" might be, they cannot be actual denominations.

Does the Church of the Lamb of God include or allow doctrines such as the trinity, creation ex nihilo, original sin, sola fide, sola scriptura, once saved always saved, women holding the priesthood, homosexuality as a valid lifestyle choice, etc. etc.?

Imho, the answer is no and that is why the Church of the Lamb of God consists of a single solitary denomination.

[Catholic Girl]

Does the Church of the Lamb of God include or allow doctrines such as the trinity, creation ex nihilo, original sin, sola fide, sola scriptura, once saved always saved, women holding the priesthood, homosexuality as a valid lifestyle choice, etc. etc.?

Imho, the answer is no and that is why the Church of the Lamb of God consists of a single solitary denomination.

There ya go! You "know" that your denomination is the "Church of the Lamb of God" and the rest of us are the other denomination collectively the "Church of the Devil" or the "Great and Abominable Church" with one of them clearly being that "which is most abominable above all other churches"

Nephi differentiates.

[why me]

There ya go! You "know" that your denomination is the "Church of the Lamb of God" and the rest of us are the other denomination collectively the "Church of the Devil" or the "Great and Abominable Church" with one of them clearly being that "which is most abominable above all other churches"

Nephi differentiates.

Catholic girl, are you okay? You seem to blasting all over the boards these days. Calm down or cool down and take a deep breath. Do some yoga. Somewhere along the way, you have forgotten how to have a conversation.

The catholic church believes that they are the true church. I have heard many catholics who converted to catholicism from protestant sects giving testimony in books about finding the truth in catholicism. Are you any different from some of the mormons are these boards? I don't think so.

Maybe just maybe you are reading too much into what nephi said. Or wish to believe what your mind desires to believe.

[Mormon Vader]

Catholic girl, are you okay? You seem to blasting all over the boards these days. Calm down or cool down and take a deep breath. Do some yoga. Somewhere along the way, you have forgotten how to have a conversation.

The catholic church believes that they are the true church. I have heard many catholics who converted to catholicism from protestant sects giving testimony in books about finding the truth in catholicism. Are you any different from some of the mormons are these boards? I don't think so.

Maybe just maybe you are reading too much into what nephi said. Or wish to believe what your mind desires to believe.

Come on, why me.

I wasn't going to respond to this thread until I read your condescending post. If anyone should be called out for being arrogant or rude, it certainly isn't Catholic Girl...I am thinking the poster with the Tabernacle image started this whole demeaning argument.

Can't we all just get along?

[St Veronica]

Someone mentioned Catholic priests have to be celibate. Actually that's not quite accurate:

Priests in the Latin rite do practice celibacy, they choose this freely. Priests in the Eastern rite for example are often married men.

SV

[Catholic Girl]

Catholic girl, are you okay? You seem to blasting all over the boards these days. Calm down or cool down and take a deep breath. Do some yoga. Somewhere along the way, you have forgotten how to have a conversation.

The catholic church believes that they are the true church. I have heard many catholics who converted to catholicism from protestant sects giving testimony in books about finding the truth in catholicism. Are you any different from some of the mormons are these boards? I don't think so.

Maybe just maybe you are reading too much into what nephi said. Or wish to believe what your mind desires to believe.

Why Me, you're right.

I usually only can participate from time to time since I am the mother to 4 young children and am very busy. But when this topic and a few select others come up, I can't help myself from "blasting all over the boards". Otherwise, most topics are usually water off a duck's back.

I seriously don't have a problem with nor am I offended with McConkie's interpretation/definition. It makes perfect sense and fits. It just angers me when it appears there is a current ongoing whitewashing of this widely taught and accepted interpretation/definition. That is what frustrates and offends me.

[selek]

Why Me, you're right.

I usually only can participate from time to time since I am the mother to 4 young children and am very busy. But when this topic and a few select others come up, I can't help myself from "blasting all over the boards". Otherwise, most topics are usually water off a duck's back.

I seriously don't have a problem with nor am I offended with McConkie's interpretation/definition. It makes perfect sense and fits. It just angers me when it appears there is a current ongoing whitewashing of this widely taught and accepted interpretation/definition. That is what frustrates and offends me.

CG, I can understand your frustration, but you have yet to demonstrate that McConkie's initial interpretation was either widely taught or widely accepted. Given that the Church has officially denounced that position and publicly corrected those who held it, your argument has a very weak foundation.

[Outshined]

True, I have never been taught that the Great and Abominable Church is the Catholic church...

[HiJolly]

CG, I can understand your frustration, but you have yet to demonstrate that McConkie's initial interpretation was either widely taught or widely accepted. Given that the Church has officially denounced that position and publicly corrected those who held it, your argument has a very weak foundation.

I don't think CG needs to demonstrate it, at least to me. I was raised BIC, and my mother taught me in the 60's that the RCC was the Church of the Devil. Back then, I believed her because she was my mom. Now, I don't believe it.

BTW, I recently visited my mother and mentioned something about "Mormon Doctrine". She said she still thought it was the actual doctrine of the Church. I asked if she still had it, she located it and guess what? All these years, she's had the FIRST edition. In my house as I grew up, it was Doctrine.

HiJolly

[Outshined]

Given that the Church has officially denounced that position and publicly corrected those who held it

Regardless of how people may misinterpret doctrine, the Church has made their view on the matter clear.

[blueadept]

CG, I can understand your frustration, but you have yet to demonstrate that McConkie's initial interpretation was either widely taught or widely accepted. Given that the Church has officially denounced that position and publicly corrected those who held it, your argument has a very weak foundation.

I can appreciate the LDS viewpoint here on the fairboards, that's why I come here since my perception in my home and wife's ward seems to get garbled. I can only speak from personal experience.

1) McConkie's book is prominent in my living room bookshelf

2) My wife wouldn't mind (it's been a couple years) if I talked with a couple relatives about the perception of the RCC. It didn't sound like they were going to be using nice references about it.

3) The fact that I've had members of the bishoporic ask me if I was offended by references made in SM or Bible study that didn't reflect well of the RCC.

Now I weigh this against what is implied here that the RCC is not what is meant by 'The Great and Abominable Church.'

My intellect agrees with those here at fairboards; however, my personal experience does not.

Peace

[selek]

I don't think CG needs to demonstrate it, at least to me. I was raised BIC, and my mother taught me in the 60's that the RCC was the Church of the Devil. Back then, I believed her because she was my mom. Now, I don't believe it.

BTW, I recently visited my mother and mentioned something about "Mormon Doctrine". She said she still thought it was the actual doctrine of the Church. I asked if she still had it, she located it and guess what? All these years, she's had the FIRST edition. In my house as I grew up, it was Doctrine.

HiJolly

HiJolly,

I don't doubt your experience, but unfortunately, your story is wholly anecdotal. One instance (or two, including the case of Blue Adept) or five, or a hundred does not implicate the Church as a whole. Numerous anecdotal accounts from FAIR members have demonstrated exactly the opposite. Arguing anecdotal evidence is merely a ***-for-tat proposition which quickly becomes a game of one-up-manship (as demonstrated in the other thread on the topic).

My mother and her sister each had three children- of those six, five are boys. Based on that anecdotal evidence, 5/6 of the children in America are boys and we need to get rid of Title IX funding for girls' sports.

Of course, the position I just outlined is demonstrably false. Since the accusation has been made against the LDS Church, it is incumbent on the accuser to prove his claim (in this case that the LDS Church considers the Roman Catholic Church to be the great and abominable whore).

Since the LDS Church has officially denounced the idea and publicly corrected those who held the view, it is now incumbent upon the accuser to prove the charge against the individual membership ("widely held" or "widely accepted"), without resorting to anecdotal evidence.

The point I take exception with is when it is claimed that such nonsense is widely held or widely accepted. I don't doubt that there are a misguided few (or a very small "many") who might hold such views and propogate them. Neither a misguided few nor a very small "many" constitutes a majority (or even a significant portion) of the church.

If a teaching is "widely held" or "widely accepted", it should be demonstrable. If such is the case, you should be able to prove the facts of the case without resorting to hearsay and third hand rumor.

[BCSpace]

Does the Church of the Lamb of God include or allow doctrines such as the trinity, creation ex nihilo, original sin, sola fide, sola scriptura, once saved always saved, women holding the priesthood, homosexuality as a valid lifestyle choice, etc. etc.?

Imho, the answer is no and that is why the Church of the Lamb of God consists of a single solitary denomination.

There ya go! You "know" that your denomination is the "Church of the Lamb of God" and the rest of us are the other denomination collectively the "Church of the Devil" or the "Great and Abominable Church"

I didn't say or imply that you are the 'church of the Devil".

with one of them clearly being that "which is most abominable above all other churches"

I wouldn't identify it as the Catholic church. The proto-Catholic church on the other hand..

[Scott Lloyd]

I meant exactly what I said....rank and file members---those faithful active members that do not spend time at apologetics sites, and especially those that were old enough to purchase and read "Mormon Doctrine" by McConkie when it first came out.

My in-laws and extended family are THE PERFECT example of what I am referencing. They won't waste a breath telling you that "The Great and Abominable Church" referenced in Nephi is indeed the Roman Catholic Church. And THEIR families do the same.

Are you denying that my ward is rank-and-file? Located as it is within the heart of Mormondom, with a fairly even cross section of age and socio-economic groups.

The class I mentioned, by the way, was a combined elders quorum/high priests group meeting consisting of three dozen or so men comprising the most active and believing members of the ward. And not one of them endeavored to the defend the notion that the great and abominable church has reference to the Roman Catholic church.

It is regrettable that you have this seeming obsession to cling to old conflicts and stereotypes in the face of abundant demonstration to the contrary.

[Scott Lloyd]

Why Me, you're right.

I usually only can participate from time to time since I am the mother to 4 young children and am very busy. But when this topic and a few select others come up, I can't help myself from "blasting all over the boards". Otherwise, most topics are usually water off a duck's back.

I seriously don't have a problem with nor am I offended with McConkie's interpretation/definition. It makes perfect sense and fits.

Several posters have explained in these threads how it does not make perfect sense or "fit." I have yet to see a serious rebuttal to them from you or anyone else, merely repeated erroneous assertion.

It just angers me when it appears there is a current ongoing whitewashing of this widely taught and accepted interpretation/definition. That is what frustrates and offends me.

I regret that you are angry, but the anger is inappropriate and misplaced. No one here has denied that the statement was made in an early edition of the book, or that many people accepted and believed it. What we are saying is that it was incorrect and unauthoritative. I have noted repeatedly that Mormon Doctrine is a commercially published work that contains a disclaimer stating that the author assumes sole responsiblity for its content. On the other hand, I have provided a quote from the Church-published Guide to the Scriptures indicating that the church of the devil is not to be regarded as the Catholic Church or any other single entity.