What Is The Great And Abominable Church?

[johnny]

Scott Lloyd,

On the other hand, I have provided a quote from the Church-published Guide to the Scriptures indicating that the church of the devil is not to be regarded as the Catholic Church or any other single entity.

Are you saying that the Catholic Church is the Church of the Lamb of God ... could you please explain?

[Pahoran]

Pahoran,

I am not Catholic Girl, but I'll be happy to oblige.

Infant baptism was practiced by those who founded the early Christian Church. The Book of Mormon says that infant baptism is a "evil abomination." Do you believe that the devil has influence on those in the Catholic Church who believe in infant baptism?

Question: Do you believe that those who believe in the concept of infant baptism will be thrust down to hell?

The Book of Mormon reveals that those who believe in the false concept of infant baptism will be thrust down to hell.

Does it? Where? Please cite the relevant passage, because I can't find it.

Thank you, BTW, for conceding on the GAC point. Explicitly doing so would be nicer, but changing the subject pretty much accomplishes the same thing.

In all your years in the Mormon Church have you every meet anyone who thought like Bruce R. McConkie, he said that those who baptize little children will be thrust down to hell (Ensign, Apr. 1977, 3 -- see link below)?

http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Mag...plates$3.0

Yes.

I am perfectly satisfied that Mormon 8:8-25 teaches correct doctrine. I am not satisfied that you have correctly represented that teaching, nor indeed that you have even tried.

Here's a suggestion: instead of arrogantly presuming to tell us(!) what our(!) scriptures mean, how about you do what real people do when they really want to know what another church teaches, and that is ask some actual believers?

Regards,

Pahoran

[urroner]

Scott Lloyd,

Are you saying that the Catholic Church is the Church of the Lamb of God ... could you please explain?

Johnny, is the Church of the Devil made up of different organizations or is it made up of a certain type of people? The Church of the Lamb of God is also made up of a certain type of people, not organizations.

[Outshined]

Scott Lloyd,

Are you saying that the Catholic Church is the Church of the Lamb of God ... could you please explain?

Why do you need a label for your church? It is a church, as any other is.

[Pahoran]

So which "church" is the "most abominable above all other 'churches' in your new definition? If you try to apply it, it won't make sense.

What "new" definition is that? The one that was "new" in 1829?

The scriptures say what they say. They are the property of the interpretive community that accepts them as scripture. If your mother did not completely fail to teach you any good manners at all, you will accept as a matter of course that they mean what that interpretive community understands them to mean and nothing else. In the event that there may be different opinions within that interpretive community, you will be pleased to await the outcome of the discussion, in the which you are not a particpant.

Now who compiled and preserved the Bible?

Much as you'd like to take the credit to your own church alone, it was a number of people.

Yeah.

Correction: yes. That's what refined people say.

Plus, adding in what Johnny cited.....it appears you have other passages and definitions yet to revise to whitewash the widely taught and accepted interpretation in Nephi that the Catholic Church is indeed The Great and Abominable Church/Church of the Devil and other such colorful names.

"Whitewash?" Did you just accuse me of lying?

"Alleged in-laws"? Did you just accuse me of lying?

No. Had I wanted to accuse you of lying, I would have said something like "fictitious in-laws" or "imaginary in-laws." Or maybe I would have worked the word "whitewash" in there somewhere.

I'll tell you what, I would have NO interest in Mormons whatsoever if I weren't related to them.

Well, I am related to Catholics, but I don't hang around Catholic message boards looking for nits to pick or accusations to level.

Regards,

Pahoran

[Outshined]

As I said on the other thread, it seems like a few here are trying awfully hard to be offended. As much as it may hurt some feelings, the Catholic church isn't discussed at all in LDS Church classes. At least I've never heard it. And no labels put on it, such as "abominable" or any other silliness. One less conspiracy theory...

Again, it looks like people just searching for an argument. Again.

[blueadept]

As I said on the other thread, it seems like a few here are trying awfully hard to be offended. As much as it may hurt some feelings, the Catholic church isn't discussed at all in LDS Church classes. At least I've never heard it. And no labels put on it, such as "abominable" or any other silliness. One less conspiracy theory...

Again, it looks like people just searching for an argument. Again.

I must only attend w/ my wife when it just happens to be brought up. I attended at the beginning of the year with the OT being taught for the year and to my surprise they started with the BoA which was explained to me why that was. Oh well, I was there.

The subject matter got into 'the nature of God.' Obviously, this is a touchy subject between the 2 faiths. More or less the group was disagreeing with the conclusions of the counsel of Nicea.

So my opinion of "the Catholic church isn't discussed" doesn't agree with yours. Oh well.

[johnny]

Pahoran,

Does it? Where? Please cite the relevant passage, because I can't find it.

Try Moroni 8 ...

I am not satisfied that you have correctly represented that teaching, nor indeed that you have even tried.

Please explain what Bruce R. McConkie is saying ...

that is ask some actual believers?

What is Moroni 8 saying ... is it the same thing Bruce R. McConkie is saying?

Regards,

johnny

[johnny]

urroner,

The Church of the Lamb of God is also made up of a certain type of people, not organizations.

Are those who practice "evil abomination" like infant baptism members of Church of the Lamb of God?

Are those who believe in creeds that are an abomination members of Church of the Lamb of God?

[alter idem]

Scott, while I understand your reasoning for starting this thread(to dispel the notion that the church teaches that the RCC is the GAAC in the BOM), I think you should be aware that there are some members who still think like Catholic Girl's in-laws. I think if you polled members in small, rural communities in Utah and Idaho, you would find a segment who accept McConkie's opinion on this subject. They never got the memo that he was stating his own opinion and that the LDS leadership didn't agree with him. Their gospel doctrine teachers don't read to the class the remarks in the lesson manual which state that the Church of the Devil is not the RCC. It also doesn't matter if the RCC doesn't fit the scriptural description outlined, this was what they read, written by an authoritative leader and they have never questioned it.

In defense of McConkie though, I can see where he came up with his theory if he was looking on the dark side of the early history of the RCC; We all have skeletons in our past we'd rather leave buried. But even if we judge it by that, it still doesn't fit the scriptural description.

[johnny]

Outshined,

Why do you need a label for your church?

I would like to know if a Catholic priest who practices a evil abomination like infant baptism a member of the Church of the Lamb of God or the Church of the devil ...

It is a church, as any other is

What do you mean ... Mormon scriptures seem to indicate that their are different churches.

As I said on the other thread, it seems like a few here are trying awfully hard to be offended.

I find the words of Joseph Smith offensive ... he revealed that the traditional Christian churches are false and their creeds are an abomination.

[urroner]

urroner,

Are those who practice "evil abomination" like infant baptism members of Church of the Lamb of God?

Are those who believe in creeds that are an abomination members of Church of the Lamb of God?

Sorry Johnny, the only memo I got from God about who didn't belong to the Church of the Lamb of God were people who liked pictures of monkeys with fezes on their heads. Other than that, He hasn't told me who was and who wasn't a member.

But apparently He sent you one. Could you forward it to me, I'd be very interested in seeing it. Sadly, it seems that I'm not on his mailing again this year.

[alter idem]

Outshined,

I would like to know if a Catholic priest who practices a evil abomination like infant baptism a member of the Church of the Lamb of God or the Church of the devil ...

What do you mean ... Mormon scriptures seem to indicate that their are different churches.

I find the words of Joseph Smith offensive ... he revealed that the traditional Christian churches are false and their creeds are an abomination.

I'm not outshined, but I'll take a stab at this.

Anyone who preaches infant baptism in Moroni's opinion is denying the saving power of the atonement. If they would believe that little children go to hell if they are not baptized, then they are in the "gall of bitterness" they are without hope in Christ--and if they teach others to believe this, they cause others to lose hope and faith in the saving power of Christ. Moroni was speaking against a practice which denies the infinite power of the atonement and therefore, he rightly saw it as an abominable doctrine. While this may be offensive to some, for all parents who have lost children before they have received formal baptism, this is not an offensive doctrine.

The "churches" spoken of in the scriptures in question are not "churches" per se. This is the doctrine of the two ways. As Jesus put it--you cannot serve two masters, you cannot serve god and mammon. Nephi calls it "two churches" and points out that if we are not serving god, we are serving the devil. Each of us must decide for ourselves who we are serving by our actions each day.

[urroner]

I find the words of Joseph Smith offensive ... he revealed that the traditional Christian churches are false and their creeds are an abomination.

And for how many years the the Catholic Church teach that little children who died without baptism weren't allowed to go to Heaven and refused to bury them in a church cemetary. I find that offensive.

Burning people at the stake, I tend to find that offensive also.

Buying forgiveness for ones sins is also offensive to me.

Are any of those offensive to you Johnny?

Just because a church is traditional and has a long history doesn't mean that it's the church that has the authority to act in God's name and that all of its basic doctrines is totally right. I find it offensive when people get all offended when I don't accept that logical fallacy.

[johnny]

alter idem,

Nephi calls it "two churches" and points out that if we are not serving god, we are serving the devil.

So Nephi is saying that those who baptize infants, like Catholic priests, are serving the devil.

As a Catholic, Mormon scripture sounds offensive to me ...

[Scott Lloyd]

Scott, while I understand your reasoning for starting this thread(to dispel the notion that the church teaches that the RCC is the GAAC in the BOM), I think you should be aware that there are some members who still think like Catholic Girl's in-laws. I think if you polled members in small, rural communities in Utah and Idaho, you would find a segment who accept McConkie's opinion on this subject. They never got the memo that he was stating his own opinion and that the LDS leadership didn't agree with him. Their gospel doctrine teachers don't read to the class the remarks in the lesson manual which state that the Church of the Devil is not the RCC. It also doesn't matter if the RCC doesn't fit the scriptural description outlined, this was what they read, written by an authoritative leader and they have never questioned it.

What you seem to be saying here is that rural Mormon communities are subject to cultural and intellectual inbreeding. I think there are those who would take exception to such a charcterization.

The area of the Salt Lake Valley where I now live was highly rural when I grew up there. I don't recall it having been taught to me in formal Church instruction that Catholicism is the church of the devil. I have never believed that, even when I was young.

[Outshined]

Outshined,

I would like to know if a Catholic priest who practices a evil abomination like infant baptism a member of the Church of the Lamb of God or the Church of the devil ...

What difference could it make? You don't believe in LDS teachings anyway. You even have an anti site of your own.

What do you mean ... Mormon scriptures seem to indicate that their are different churches.

Yet you want a special "Mormon" label for yours... Nope,can't help ya. It's just a church.

I find the words of Joseph Smith offensive ... he revealed that the traditional Christian churches are false and their creeds are an abomination.

As I said, JS didn't reveal anything; God did. The Catholic church has said some unpleasant things about other churches; does that upset you?

[johnny]

Outshined,

You are correct I don't believe the LDS teachings. I don't want a a special "Mormon" label. You say God revealed it, I would differ with you.

[Outshined]

And we agree, as I do not believe Catholic teachings and I believe that God did reveal it to JS. The difference is that I don't go to Catholic boards to argue about their religion.

[Pahoran]

alter idem,

So Nephi is saying that those who baptize infants, like Catholic priests, are serving the devil.

Nephi doesn't address infant baptism at all. The question did not arise in his day.

You desperately need to get a grip.

As a Catholic, Mormon scripture sounds offensive to me ...

As a Mormon, Catholics--or anyone else--trying to drum up excuses to get offended by their tendentious misreadings of our scriptures is tiresome to me.

Regards,

Pahoran

[Pahoran]

Pahoran,

Try Moroni 8 ...

As I said: I am perfectly satisfied that Moroni 8:8-25 teaches correct doctrine. I am not satisfied that you have correctly represented that teaching, nor indeed that you have even tried.

Please explain what Bruce R. McConkie is saying ...

Why? Because you demand it?

What is Moroni 8 saying ... is it the same thing Bruce R. McConkie is saying?

Not necessarily.

Regards,

Pahoran

[johnny]

Pahoran,

As a Mormon, Catholics--or anyone else--trying to drum up excuses to get offended by their tendentious misreadings of our scriptures is tiresome to me.

Is Bruce R. McConkie misreading Mormon scripture when he writes that infant baptism â??is solemn mockeryâ? and that "those who believe such a false concept are â??in the bonds of iniquityâ? and if cut off while in the thought shall be thrust down to hell"

Not necessarily.

Please explain why Bruce R. McConkie is "not necessarily" saying the same thing as Moroni 8. Bruce's words are from the offical Mormon publication Ensign.

The Mormon article below says Official LDS publications like the magazine Ensign carry messages that are sound in doctrine prepared under the direction of some officially recognized Church agency.

http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Mag...x=server#LPHit1

Regards,

johnny

[Outshined]

As a Mormon, Catholics--or anyone else--trying to drum up excuses to get offended by their tendentious misreadings of our scriptures is tiresome to me.

You know, we often see people attacking the faiths of others to bolster their own. That's why Chick produces those nasty little tracts against so many, including the Catholics. It's just foolishness.

J Green said it well in the other thread:

1. Regardless of what some may have learned in their families or spelled out with Scrabble tiles (a la Sneakers), the official LDS doctrine does not equate the RCC with the GAC of 1 Ne 13.

2. The question of infant baptism seems to get hung up on the issue of those baptizing the infants being "thrust down to hell."

A. Johnny lays the blame on Elder McKonckie article in the Ensign. However, all he is doing here is quoting and summarizing Mormon's letter to his son found in Moroni 8. And he is not alone in quoting this scripture in the "official" magazine. So do Elders Packer ("Little Children") and Jensen ("Little Children and the Gospel").

B. If you read Moroni 8 as a 19th-century anti-Catholic fabrication, then there is some room for misgivings. The LDS, however should read it in context as a religious leader addressing instances of apostacy by members of his faith. As USU points out, the best candidate for being thrust down to hell would be LDS priesthood holders baptizing infants contrary to what they have been taught about the atonement as LDS. It is in THIS context that we should read Moroni 8. This is a group quickly sliding into apostacy and these changes are being made "among you" (as addressed to Moroni). Just as it is theologically and historically lazy for us as LDS to ASSUME that 1 Ne 13 talks about the Catholic Church, it is lazy for us to do the same in Moroni 8. It is talking about members of a church changing the covenants they have made with God in the context of that faith. Judging others based on a different context centuries later is not the best way to go.

Just my two cents.

[johnny]

Outshined,

J Green said it well in the other thread:

johnny said in the other thread:

Mormons And The Catholic Church

http://www.fairboards.org/index.php?s=&amp...mp;p=1208069788

If you read Moroni 8 as a 19th-century anti-Catholic fabrication, then there is some room for misgivings.

Could you explain what you mean by misgivings ... In the 19th-century is infant baptism "evil abomination"?

As USU points out, the best candidate for being thrust down to hell would be LDS priesthood holders baptizing infants contrary to what they have been taught about the atonement as LDS. It is in THIS context that we should read Moroni 8.

Do you believe those who practice infant baptism "are in danger of death, hell, and an endless torment"? Moroni 8 says:

http://scriptures.lds.org/moro/8

Infant baptism is an evil abomination ... Wo be unto them that shall pervert the ways of the Lord after this manner, for they shall perish except they repent. Behold, I speak with boldness, having authority from God ... Wo unto such, for they are in danger of death, hell, and an endless torment. ... it is mockery before God ... they are denying the Holy Ghost ... they must perish soon

Just as it is theologically and historically lazy for us as LDS to ASSUME that 1 Ne 13 talks about the Catholic Church, it is lazy for us to do the same in Moroni 8.

Do you believe those who practice infant baptism are "perverting the ways of the Lord"? Moroni 8 says:

Infant baptism is an evil abomination ... Wo be unto them that shall pervert the ways of the Lord after this manner, for they shall perish except they repent. Behold, I speak with boldness, having authority from God ... Wo unto such, for they are in danger of death, hell, and an endless torment. ... it is mockery before God ... they are denying the Holy Ghost ... they must perish soon

It is talking about members of a church changing the covenants they have made with God in the context of that faith. Judging others based on a different context centuries later is not the best way to go.

What is the best way to go ... where did todays Mormon Church get it's teachings on infant baptism?

[Outshined]

I hope none of you Mormons behave like this; chasing Catholics around starting pointless arguments about doctrines you don't even believe in...

You'd think one would have better use of one's time, wouldn't you?

Again, brilliant post, J Green.

Do you believe those who practice infant baptism are "perverting the ways of the Lord"?

Absolutely.