What Is The Great And Abominable Church?

[Scott Lloyd]

Does 10% or thereabouts of membership thinking this indicate that this is a "widely held" or "widely taught" doctrine?

Definitely not.

And as I hinted earlier, I suspect that even the 11 percent that shows up for choice #1 is inflated due to unqualified voters intentionally trying to skew the number.

I can understand that an idea might be prevalent within a family where a teaching by parents is shared among several siblings and anyone who finds out that it is incorrect may be reluctant to teach against their parents or grandparents' beliefs.

And while I have never personally heard CC=GAA/CotD taught, I would not be surprised if it popped up now and again like other false doctrines do among well-intentioned, but misinformed members.

However, this does not mean it is Church doctrine or "widely held" or "widely taught".

What can be demonstrated and has is that it is against church doctrine, that this rejection is intended to be widely taught and widely held because it is in the basic Church manual as well as the rejection of this false doctrine being published from time to time in the Ensign.

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As to those teaching false doctrine being thrust down to hell---this is going to occur to anyone who refuses to accept the saving grace of the Atonement, but I think the scriptures make it clear that it is in particular to those who corrupt the teachings, IOW, not those who innocently teach false doctrine passed on to them, but those who knowingly changed them from truth to falsehoods. If there have been Catholic leaders who have done this, they will be required to repent of it so they can accept the Atonement. Same goes for LDS leaders and any other individual who has knowingly lied and corrupted the teachings of God.

Those who are their victims will be judged by their knowledge of the truth and not held accountable for the false teachings of their parents or leaders. The scriptures are clear on this.

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Church of the Devil

Nephi 22: 23 For the time speedily shall come that all churches which are built up to get gain, and all those who are built up to get power over the flesh, and those who are built up to become popular in the eyes of the world, and those who seek the lusts of the flesh and the things of the world, and to do all manner of iniquity; yea, in fine, all those who belong to the kingdom of the devil

Was the Catholic Church built up and maintained for the purpose to:

1) Get Gain

2) Get Power over the flesh (I believe this means control others)

3) Become Popular

4) Seek lusts of the flesh and things of the world

5) Do all manner of iniquity

While there might have been some leaders that joined the movement to achieve this (LDS have John C Bennett--these type of men are everywhere trying to corrupt that which is good), I don't see it as the motivation of the early Church leadership in gneral or the leadership now.

Nephi 14: 11 And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the whore of all the earth, and she sat upon many waters; and she had dominion over all the earth, among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people.

Does the Catholic Church "have dominion over all the earth, among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people"?

Since there are many countries where not only does the Catholic Church not have dominion, but is persecuted by those that do have dominion, I just don't see how someone who is appealing to the scriptures can justify any conclusion that the CC is the GAA or ever was. It has never held dominion over the entire earth.

If you want to wear the label so badly that you reject actual LDS teaching and chose mistaken, false and corrupted teaching instead, you should ask yourself why it is so important to you. But that's your issue, not the LDS church's.

Yet again calmoriah provides a breath of fresh air with a common-sense post.

[Catholic Girl]

Then I think the clouds are beginning to part here.

Could it be your in-laws' alleged comments about the Catholic Church are more attributable to their being peeved about recent events in their own family than to any rampant teaching in Mormonism?

No such luck on that theory, Scott.

My in-laws have been spouting that anti-Catholic stuff since my husband was born. Like I said, he grew up with it. He also heard it from his grandparents, uncles, aunts, etc.

My apparent only redeeming quality was my "potential" to be a convert.

Has the rabid anti-Catholic sentiment increased since my husband became Catholic? OH, you better believe it!

So when the family was working on me for about 10 years to get me to convert, they tried many different things. I got the soft sell and the hard sell, direct and indirect.

So initially of course, their anti-Catholic"ness" was kept from me.

You have to realize, of course, that I've later discovered how much and to what extremes my husband went to protect me from them. I didn't know what they were saying. I didn't know that at our wedding at a Catholic Church, and at the baptisms of our children, his relatives were making snarky anti-Catholic remarks to him as well as to each other.

I guess in a sense, he protected THEM from me. If I had KNOWN what was being said behind my back at our wedding and children's baptisms.....well

So their "Great and Abominable Church" is not a recent sentiment brought on by their son's conversion to Catholicism. It started for him at his birth back in the 1970's and it is something they've obviously been consistent with.

I would LOVE someone to go and try to tell them now that the position of their church is now that the RCC is NOT the Church of the Devil or GAAC.

Unfortunately, I think they're too old to change that sentiment now. It is most unfortunate that they taught and perpetuated that sentiment to all their children as well. I wonder about my nieces and nephews.

[Mordecai]

....Church of the Devil

Nephi 22: 23 For the time speedily shall come that all churches which are built up to get gain, and all those who are built up to get power over the flesh, and those who are built up to become popular in the eyes of the world, and those who seek the lusts of the flesh and the things of the world, and to do all manner of iniquity; yea, in fine, all those who belong to the kingdom of the devil

Was the Catholic Church built up and maintained for the purpose to:

1) Get Gain

2) Get Power over the flesh (I believe this means control others)

3) Become Popular

4) Seek lusts of the flesh and things of the world

5) Do all manner of iniquity

....Nephi 14: 11 And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the whore of all the earth, and she sat upon many waters; and she had dominion over all the earth, among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people.

Does the Catholic Church "have dominion over all the earth, among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people"?

Since there are many countries where not only does the Catholic Church not have dominion, but is persecuted by those that do have dominion, I just don't see how someone who is appealing to the scriptures can justify any conclusion that the CC is the GAA or ever was. It has never held dominion over the entire earth.

If you want to wear the label so badly that you reject actual LDS teaching and chose mistaken, false and corrupted teaching instead, you should ask yourself why it is so important to you. But that's your issue, not the LDS church's.

[Mordecai]

Well, I accidentally posted only the quote above. Here is my post. From my reading of the Book of Mormon, the word Church does not have the same meaning as it does for us in standard English. The scriptures say, "There are only two churches, the Church of God and the Church of the devil." Now, obviously one of those Churches promotes good and the other evil. What differentiates the Church of Jesus Christ from all other churches? Our belief in the God as an exalted Man, Jesus Christ and his Father. To believe God is a great, formless, all powerful alien causes, not surprisingly, alienation from God. Furthermore, this further supports the idea that anything evil denies the Christ. How can Jesus be the Son of God if God is a great beastly amoeba? How can one feel close to and loved by Energy or some All Powerful Ether of Love? EVERY major church in the world teaches the alienness of God, except the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Those who believe the scriptures and believe Jesus is God are not part of the great and abominable Church and accept Him as their Savior. Those that disbelieve that Jesus is the Son of God and that the REAL God is only a ghostly presence and Jesus is the Son of this ghostly presence in name only are part of the great and abominable Church. The one who made the case that the Roman Empire was the great and abominable church, however, had a good point. Central to Roman philosophy as the belief that anything material was inferior and low compared to those things that are of the mind. To them, the Christian belief in a anthropomorphic God was offensive. Of course, the power and influence of this philosophy permeates the world today, thus those that deny the Christ or have core doctrines in their religious belief that preclude Jesus from being the Son of God are part of the great and abominable Church and move mankind away from closeness to God. One Church promotes the idea of men being children of God. The other states that mankind is just a creation and something to toy with.

[Pahoran]

No such luck on that theory, Scott.

My in-laws have been spouting that anti-Catholic stuff since my husband was born. Like I said, he grew up with it. He also heard it from his grandparents, uncles, aunts, etc.

My apparent only redeeming quality was my "potential" to be a convert.

Has the rabid anti-Catholic sentiment increased since my husband became Catholic? OH, you better believe it!

So when the family was working on me for about 10 years to get me to convert, they tried many different things. I got the soft sell and the hard sell, direct and indirect.

So initially of course, their anti-Catholic"ness" was kept from me.

You have to realize, of course, that I've later discovered how much and to what extremes my husband went to protect me from them. I didn't know what they were saying. I didn't know that at our wedding at a Catholic Church, and at the baptisms of our children, his relatives were making snarky anti-Catholic remarks to him as well as to each other.

I guess in a sense, he protected THEM from me. If I had KNOWN what was being said behind my back at our wedding and children's baptisms.....well

So their "Great and Abominable Church" is not a recent sentiment brought on by their son's conversion to Catholicism. It started for him at his birth back in the 1970's and it is something they've obviously been consistent with.

I would LOVE someone to go and try to tell them now that the position of their church is now that the RCC is NOT the Church of the Devil or GAAC.

Unfortunately, I think they're too old to change that sentiment now. It is most unfortunate that they taught and perpetuated that sentiment to all their children as well. I wonder about my nieces and nephews.

Well CG, you can report to them that no matter how hard you tried, you just could not convince us that the RCC is the GAC.

You are also not going to succeed in convincing us to pass adverse judgement on your alleged in-laws, either. The only thing I am sure about is that your story is not an exception to the old rule about "two sides to every story."

One final note: the RCC is not the GAC--both your failure to make your argument and the fact that only you and your fellow-Catholics are trying to make it prove that--but neither does membership in the RCC automatically disqualify you from membership in the GAC.

Regards,

Pahoran

[Tidejwe]

I find "none of the above" the only tenable response, given that the G&AC is identified with the whore of all the earth from Revelations, it is not a church at all, since that book identifies the Roman Empire as a type of the whore . . . and there is no particular church (with apologies to BAMcC and others who took/take his 1st edition too seriously) or even political entity that qualifies, but rather qualities which may be shared by secular and ecclesiastical organizations which constitute the G&AC (the "C" being a group of people bound together by common goals, philosophies, etc.).

Agreed on the point that the only tenable respose is "None of the Above". I also believe it is referring to a group of people bound by common goals, philosophies etc. I read a great argument on the subject once that claimed it referred to "government". Such an argument was based on the book The great and abominable church of the Devil by H. Verlan Andersen. While I think Andersen was incorrect on his overall conclusion, he was a product of his time (written during the cold-war and is claiming it's communism which is the abomination). I believe he made a breakthrough in the church that it doesn't necessarily refer to a religion or denomination at all. It could be a government, or a philosophy, etc.

There are lots of GREAT wonderful people in other churches who really do everything they can do follow the Lord and help people, etc. Heaven knows if we were born in the suburbs of Iran that we would all be Muslim and not LDS. Some members would likely not be LDS if they had not been born into it. Some of our enemies might not be enemies if they were born in some LDS family farm in the boonies in Wyoming or Idaho where that became their whole life. Environment, genetics, predispositions, background, etc will all be taken into account in judgment. Such things can have a huge influence on a person. Some people we view as "Evil" may not have become so especially if he was born in some Farm out in the middle of the mountains in Haiti. The environment made a huge difference. I believe it's similar with those of other sects. I don't think any particular sect is evil in itself or the G&AC (leaving room for the few exceptions of obvious frauds).

Some people believe the G&AC are those who subscribe to the "Mark of the Beast". the most recent/popular idea going around is that the "Mark of the Beast" is this new "Verichip" that is injected into your right hand just like the Bible mentions and then will be used to purchase things, etc as well as a mark on the forehead. I think it's as ridiculous as the UPC theory...because i believe it's talking about thoughts and actions (notice it also says the righteous have a mark on their forehead...symbolic for thoughts and actions since it's in the symbolic part of revelations (the first part being normal, and last half being a Greek drama). It could be something similar in that the G&AC are all people with a similar thought/philosophy or supporting a major movement that is somehow diametrically opposed to God's will and work.

IMO of course.

[grego]

I agree, communism is not it. It's just another tool of the GAC.

[PacMan]

I remember my Dad telling me years ago that Satan would be happy with me making 99 good choices if that's what it would take for me to make 1 wrong one. This 1% in all aspects of life and religion, I believe, is supported, if not influenced by Satan. Unfortunatley, I think when we think in terms of the GAA church, we tend to clump history, leadership, and membership all into one. There have been any number of wicked, disgusting Popes...and there have been some truly Christlike ones too. There have been members of the LDS faith that also fit the two categories. I think to judge a membership by the acts of their leaders is but short-sightedness, and a bit unfair.

All the same, anything that professes to be the truth which is not, is something that I'm sure Satan looks at and smiles. Be it the RCC or LDS, any church which is not the true church (or an organization that cannot bring people to through Christ eternal life, yet professes to do so) is surely, to some degree, part of the GAA for it is an illusion to the church of Christ.

PacMan