Gohan Posted January 23, 2006 Posted January 23, 2006 Well the fact that they live in nice neighborhoods could be the fact that they had decent jobs and are now using the money they EARNED, not church money, to pay for it. Besides, average, is a relative term. I know plenty of church members that have nice houses in good, upscale neighborhoods, perhaps *gasps* the church is paying for their homes too.
Jarrod Posted January 23, 2006 Posted January 23, 2006 The idea that an angel came down and took the plates to protect them just doesn't make much sense. The plates were buried in a hole in the ground for 2000 years without being disturbed. This is a very good point. Between 400 AD and 1820 AD (roughly speaking), the plates remained untouched. Even with all kinds of scryers in the vicinity (Joseph admittedly being one of them), the plates were completely safe. Miraculously, Joseph was able to keep the plates safe during the translation process.But once the translation was completed, Moroni took them up to heaven. Why didn't the resurrected Moroni (or Mormon) come and claim the plates shortly after they died, thereby keeping the plates completely safe for the next 1200 years? I also wonder why, after Joseph gathered thousands of followers to the church, there wasn't enough safety for the plates? Joseph had a bodyguard, Nauvoo had its Legion, why couldn't the church have kept the plates safe? Couldn't they have guarded them better than a rock on a hill for 1200 years?Now that the church is capable of keeping the plates safer than most 3rd world countries ever could, why hasn't Moroni returned the plates? Perhaps they weren't taken back to keep them safe after all. The more plausible reason is that they never existed in the first place.
Gohan Posted January 23, 2006 Posted January 23, 2006 I think that this thread is starting to go nowhere, we keep coming back to the same things....
Sparrowhawk Posted January 23, 2006 Posted January 23, 2006 I think that this thread is starting to go nowhere, we keep coming back to the same things.... Amen!Here's somthing a little new, There is an account of Martin Harris and Porter Rockwell Going out to dig the plates up from the hill Cumorah. They reported that they found somthing, but everytime they got to it an angel or guardian spirit drug it further down. I believe that there were also times that Moroni took the plates from Joseph for safekeeping. It seems that some of the saints heard them rumbling along underground or somthing like that.I think the real question is quite different. Why did Joseph need the plates in the first place? He did not need them to produce the text that we currently have. Why not just keep the plates really safe and let Joseph and others see them in vision?
Sput Posted January 23, 2006 Posted January 23, 2006 And the Church has a paid ministry as do other religions. It doesn't matter how "minimally" it is...the lie is complete.Im still wondering how its a complete lie if members know they are compensated and that the church has substantial holdings in many things. The church also has no debt. Imagine that. But im so glad you registered so that you can get that off your chest. Im sure the church weaseled lots of tithe from you to make the brethren rich and make you so upset when you pulled your blinders off to see the great LIE we members are being told. Please continue to enlighten us and bring us to your truth.
Sparrowhawk Posted January 23, 2006 Posted January 23, 2006 And the Church has a paid ministry as do other religions. It doesn't matter how "minimally" it is...the lie is complete.Im still wondering how its a complete lie if members know they are compensated and that the church has substantial holdings in many things. The church also has no debt. Imagine that. But im so glad you registered so that you can get that off your chest. Im sure the church weaseled lots of tithe from you to make the brethren rich and make you so upset when you pulled your blinders off to see the great LIE we members are being told. Please continue to enlighten us and bring us to your truth. Well okay... I think there is some middle ground here. It is fairly common (although by no means thorough) Knowledge in the church that GAs recieve a living stipend (read that as PAY) as well as the use of lots of cushy tithing provided cars and a private jet (thanks to Huntsman and Miller). They used to get placed on boards of church owned companies to keep them solvent. Clearly they are paid. Some of them probably took a cut to work for the church, and some are probably living it up (Packer for instance used to be a seminary teacher - they don't pay much). But they are not really abusing this priveledge as far as I can tell.The vast majority of the church is run by lay membership. Let's not forget the coutless hours of unpaid volunteerism that goes into this to make the whole system run.I am sure it is a surprise and a dissapointment to those who thought the GA's dont get anything and that this is a bragging point to discover this is not true. Let's have a little compassion
MorningStar Posted January 23, 2006 Posted January 23, 2006 Y'know, I was just thinking almost the same thing. I was thinking that after you've tried to reason with people who think your beliefs have something to do with "magic" you eventually realize the futility of the exercise.Wow, Pahoran! That was a PERFECT "I'm rubber and you're glue" comeback!And the Church has a paid ministry as do other religions. It doesn't matter how "minimally" it is...the lie is complete. Getauft1962???? Oooooh ... very sneaky of you. Sehr lustig.
charity Posted January 23, 2006 Posted January 23, 2006 So are Baptized1962 and Getauft1962 the same person? Or two people who each were baptized in 1962? If one person, is this legal? To go by two different screen names?
MorningStar Posted January 23, 2006 Posted January 23, 2006 So are Baptized1962 and Getauft1962 the same person? Or two people who each were baptized in 1962? If one person, is this legal? To go by two different screen names? No, you're not supposed to go by different screen names, especially when you purposely insult someone saying, "I'll have to get a new log-in name after this." Yes, "getauft" = "baptized". My 4 years of German didn't go to waste! I was hoping he would make it a little less obvious when he came back so we could have more fun guessing which disgruntled poster he was.
1dc Posted January 23, 2006 Posted January 23, 2006 ...Paid. They get paid... Umm . . just out of curiousity . . what do you think the percentage of unpaid ordained ministers is in the Church? Here's a hint: it's closer to 100% than it is 99%. One answer might be that is has both, though such an answer would be misleading because a materially correct answer isn't the answer you've proposed.
why me Posted January 23, 2006 Posted January 23, 2006 I think that this thread is starting to go nowhere, we keep coming back to the same things.... And this is what happens. A thread starts out well. Dude posted a thoughtful thread but then suddenly an anti comes along and poses a question or makes a statement. (This is done not to seek answers but rather to stir the pot.) The believers respond. The anti disagrees and the believers respond. Then suddenly, as his or her argument is heading south of the border, an anti pitches a new argument into the ring about something 'negative' about the church and eventually all heck breaks loose. It is a wonderful anti tactic to keep the pot stirring and yet if you notice on this thread...the antis lost. But it doesn't matter...the point was to stir the pot and negate the positive about the church. We saw this with the 'paid ministry angle' and Pahoran's right on comments and the responses it drew. Oh by the way...why are you screaming.....? I noticed that you have blond hair and you are letting out a scream....please don't let the antis get to this way...calm down and relax....remember we have Pahoran and Juliann and Charity and a host of others are on side....calm down.....relax....we are in reality just living through a dream.
The Dude Posted January 23, 2006 Author Posted January 23, 2006 It is a wonderful anti tactic to keep the pot stirring and yet if you notice on this thread...the antis lost. The obnoxious antis who wanted to stir the pot lost. Not the thoughtful ones who wanted to discuss. The debate goes on, whether on this thread or on another....
why me Posted January 23, 2006 Posted January 23, 2006 It is a wonderful anti tactic to keep the pot stirring and yet if you notice on this thread...the antis lost. The obnoxious antis who wanted to stir the pot lost. Not the thoughtful ones who wanted to discuss. The debate goes on, whether on this thread or on another.... You are absolutely right and I just posted my comments on your other thread. Hoepfully dude when you see an anti tactic you will step in and chastise the poster. It is ashame when a thoughtful thread, as you posted here, is used and abused by the naysayers just for the heck of it. We should all ban together on this one.
charity Posted January 23, 2006 Posted January 23, 2006 I'm with you guys on this one. I sometimes rise to the bait, and am guilty of getting threads off track. Or at least following the false track the pot stirrer started. I apologize. I will try to do better. Maybe what we need to do, as soon as someone throws a bomb, start a new topic with that idea, and not respond on the present thread.
why me Posted January 23, 2006 Posted January 23, 2006 I'm with you guys on this one. I sometimes rise to the bait, and am guilty of getting threads off track. Or at least following the false track the pot stirrer started. I apologize. I will try to do better. Maybe what we need to do, as soon as someone throws a bomb, start a new topic with that idea, and not respond on the present thread. Or wear our helmets and ignore the bomb. I think that we are all guilty of this charity only because we do not recognize that it is happening when it is happening. And that is the ploy...the anti knows the emotions of the believers...the reaction of believers is completely natural...to defend what they believe in because their faith is important. And the anti knows that....plus some just want to give to the faithful the same feelings that they may have inside of them...confusion, anger, bitterness etc....And I think that this is sooo unfortunate because through reasonable discussion and understanding such emotions can subside in the knowledge that we are all human beings.
Daniel Peterson Posted January 23, 2006 Posted January 23, 2006 why hasn't Moroni returned the plates? Perhaps they weren't taken back to keep them safe after all. The more plausible reason is that they never existed in the first place.If I could dismiss the testimony of the Witnesses to the Book of Mormon (the Three, the Eight, and the others), I might be able to agree with you on the plausibility of that reason. But I can't. I really, genuinely, can't. I understand that some have managed to persuade themselves that the testimony of the Witnesses means nothing and carries no evidentiary weight, and I've read their arguments carefully. But I remain unconvinced. I'm not even close to persuaded.I've given something of my own take on the Witnesses in the second of two lectures recorded and distributed by Covenant Communications under the title Evidences and Witnesses of the Book of Mormon.The standard work on the topic is Richard Lloyd Anderson's Investigating the Book of Mormon Witnesses, which can profitably be supplemented by several superb additional articles that he's since published on the subject (including a very helpful one in the current issue of the FARMS Journal of Book of Mormon Studies). Lyndon Cook's collection of David Whitmer Interviews is also very valuable.
Pokatator Posted January 23, 2006 Posted January 23, 2006 The greatest single reason why there are no plates among us today, IMO, is the fact that the Book of Mormon cannot be falsified without them. What I mean is, the church is stronger without evidence because evidence can demonstrate that the church is not what it claims to be. This is a huge benefit, because a lack of falsifiability grants the church a de facto veneer of truth, and this makes it very easy for the church to say such things as, "The burden of proof is on the detractors to prove that the church isn't what it claims." In other words, "Prove to me that Joseph didn
why me Posted January 23, 2006 Posted January 23, 2006 The greatest single reason why there are no plates among us today, IMO, is the fact that the Book of Mormon cannot be falsified without them. What I mean is, the church is stronger without evidence because evidence can demonstrate that the church is not what it claims to be. This is a huge benefit, because a lack of falsifiability grants the church a de facto veneer of truth, and this makes it very easy for the church to say such things as, "The burden of proof is on the detractors to prove that the church isn't what it claims." In other words, "Prove to me that Joseph didn
Abulafia Posted January 23, 2006 Posted January 23, 2006 Hence, the attack on the character of the 11 witnesses that is now being played on the internet. Anything to weaken the faith of the believer. Oh for goodness sake Why me!!!Why on earth are you putting everything in this anti/pro box. How about ordinary people who are interested in history, interested in analysing all the evidence and then coming up with their own conclusions.Does it always HAVE to be about weakening the faith of the believer. Can't it sometimes be about trying to strengthen ones own beliefs. The background/character of the 11 witnesses and the nature of their witness is a VALID area for study surely.Grief...Abulafia
Hyrum Page Posted January 23, 2006 Posted January 23, 2006 Why couldn't Joseph just do what Moroni did and re-bury them? In fact, that's what Joseph supposedly did during the translation process. The plates were buried out in the woods while he was poking his face into his hat.*There were people who, knowing Joseph claimed to have such plates, would have been looking for them. We know that his former associates in treasure-digging tried to get them. Who is to say that all attempts to get them would have stopped? Who is to say that the temptation to use them for monetary gain after the translation would have ended, even for Joseph or his family?Moroni was in a much different circumstance. We do not know whether others knew of the plates. We do not know who could have followed him around to seek them out if they had known about them. The guy wandered around quite a long time, after all. I don't see parity in the Joseph Smith and Moroni circumstances.I can understand how an atheist would not believe the angel stories, but the suggestion that Joseph could have easily reburied them makes little sense to me. Why rebury them when someone could have used them?I see that your belief that there were no plates makes the whole point moot, but I can also see compelling reasons why a story would be told that would put the plates beyond human reach. I am sure you, as an atheist, can at least appreciate the utility of the story.
dragonslayer Posted January 23, 2006 Posted January 23, 2006 Gohan wrote:General Authority sees mbeesley's post:"Flip, somebody figured it out. Now we have to rehide them all over again....."
why me Posted January 23, 2006 Posted January 23, 2006 Hence, the attack on the character of the 11 witnesses that is now being played on the internet. Anything to weaken the faith of the believer. Oh for goodness sake Why me!!!Why on earth are you putting everything in this anti/pro box. How about ordinary people who are interested in history, interested in analysing all the evidence and then coming up with their own conclusions.Does it always HAVE to be about weakening the faith of the believer. Can't it sometimes be about trying to strengthen ones own beliefs. The background/character of the 11 witnesses and the nature of their witness is a VALID area for study surely.Grief...Abulafia Abu! Notice the quotation that you took from my thread! I gave a specific example of what I meant by my statement. Those who attack the character of the witnesses are making statements to the effect that the witnesses can not be depended upon. They then use speculation as fact about why this is so. Their intent: to weaken the testimony of the faithful. As Daniel Peterson pointed out there is a wonderful book to read about the 11 witnesses. I have yet to see one critic say that they will read it or comment on it. Rather, the spew out the same speculations. This is my point. I agree with you to some extent. I think that those who seek honestly for an opinion are welcome to do so. And those who post with an enquiring mind will not receive my rebuke. But those who use a harsh, demeaning tone when they present their 'facts' do so for only one reason: to belittle the faith and lead people away. And as you know from that other forum I hate the belittling. I hope that all is well with you! I will PM you soon!
Jarrod Posted January 23, 2006 Posted January 23, 2006 Hey, wasnt there supposed to be a secret room under Hill Cumorrah somewhere? Yes, there supposedly is. You'd think that if Joseph had access to it, and if nobody else was able to go there without permission, certainly the golden plates would have been safe there. I wonder if GBH is allowed in there.
Sparrowhawk Posted January 23, 2006 Posted January 23, 2006 Wrong hill cumorah. The one with the room full of plates must have been in south america.Here is a real question. What happened to the stone box that the plates were in? I am sure no stone on the Hill Cumorah was left unturned after JS claimed he found the plates. Where did the stone box go? Even that much evidence would be interesting to find.
Dale Posted January 23, 2006 Posted January 23, 2006 With the plates the reason for the testimonies was that you had to rely on others spiritual visions, and not your own sight.
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