Case of the Missing Golden Plates

[Gohan]

That is a misquote, you completely miss it. Personally I think Juliann is just trying to hold onto her "L337" status as a top poster because there is rarely substance to her arguments.

I'd ask you to avoid the insulting of fellow posters, it is not something that is generally appreciated by others, myself included.

[Sparrowhawk]

Daniel Peterson:

I don't know that anybody doubts that Strang had a set of a few very small metallic plates in his possession, or that they were removed from the earth in the manner reported above. In that sense, there would be nothing for his witnesses to deny.

Thanks for the history lesson on the Strangite plates... Very interesting.

Charity:

For those who may be deceived into thinking that Joseph Smith caused the persecutions that plagued the Saints, and that there is no reality in Satan, maybe the following will be enlightening. I doubt it, however. I didn't include any references from the Book of Mormon because you wouldn't believe those, either. But at least, with the Bible, you have less excuse.

Zech. 3: 1 AND he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.

2 Cor. 2: 11 Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.

Bummer, I don't see the Bible as literal either.

One of the reasons in my opinion for Joseph's death was his practice of Plural Marriage. This added a lot of fuel to the fire. If this was indeed G-d's work (plural marriage) Then he really needed no Satan to get things stirred up. The moral teachings of the bible (written by G-d's prophets) had already got people ready to reject this idea.

[BYU Alterego]

The bottom line is that Joseph crossed the bounds of his marriage, he had multiple sexual encounters, there are at least seven resulting children that I'm aware of. 

The below the bottom line is that you need to offer some proof for wild-eyed claims like this. To date, the only known children are from Emma. He may well have fathered another...but there is absolutely no evidence for it...including the ongoing DNA studies.

Nothing wild eyed about it, unless you're incredulous at Joseph's behavior.

You keep speaking of proof, what better proof of sex than children?!

I guess the tentative list for now actually comes to eight children:

Josephine Fisher (b. Feb. 8, 1844)

Oliver Buell

John R. Hancock (b. Apr. 19, 1841)

George A. Lightner (b. Mar. 12, 1842)

Orson W. Hyde (b. Nov. 9, 1843)

Frank H. Hyde (b. Jan 23, 1845)

Moroni Pratt (b. Dec. 7, 1844)

Zebulon Jacobs (b. Jan 2, 1842)

To source the above would be incredibly time consuming, so I'll let you just google.

[Gohan]

Okay, the whole thing about polygamy has been overdone in my opinion. I'm just going to state my humble opinion on the whole thing. In the scriptures, God is refered to as "The God of Abraham, the God of Issac, and the God of Jacob", correct? Did these men practice polygamy? Yes. If what these men did was so wrong, why are they refered to as such rightous men and still revered today?

Okay I've stated part of my opinion (the other part of which I have trouble typing), and now that that is over can we keep the subject out of the thread? It has no place in the original subject, which is why the Gold Plates were taken back to heaven. So can we get back on that instead of this pointless bickering on other subjects?

[BYU Alterego]

That is a misquote, you completely miss it. Personally I think Juliann is just trying to hold onto her "L337" status as a top poster because there is rarely substance to her arguments.

I'd ask you to avoid the insulting of fellow posters, it is not something that is generally appreciated by others, myself included.

Glad to see how selectively defensive you are. If you defend me the next time I'll get insulted than maybe I'll listen to you. Until then, grow thicker skin.

[BYU Alterego]

BYU Alterego:

"The bottom line is that Joseph crossed the bounds of his marriage, he had multiple sexual encounters, there are at least seven resulting children that I'm aware of. "

CFR

What does this polygamy issue have to do with the issue of Moroni taking back the plates for safe keeping.

You're right, we've gotten off subject. Originally I was speaking to the argument of the value of evidence. Evidence like the Gold plates showing up. I generally get a lot of disgruntled responses that I end up feeling I should respond to and that's probably set us off course.

My apologies...

[Gohan]

Buddy, I defend anyone if I see them being unfairly insulted. Happens when you've been made fun of and insulted in school for 12 years, also the little fact of being beaten several times for being Mormon. So I tend to stand up for people, and let me tell you this, I have a thick skin, and I am not someone you want to piss off. Comprende, mi amigo?

[Gohan]

Sorry, just saw your post BYU. So you can ignore, but I'm leaving it up as a warning to others.

So, back on subject we go, where we stop, no one knows.....

[BYU Alterego]

Gohan, you will find that ignoring questions they don't have an answer for is a standard tactic. It has been my experience that here on the board, the anti or counter-Mormon group will never come back with an honest, "I don't know." You will get used to it. And the harder you try to pin them down, the more you feel like you are trying to nail jell-o to the wall.

Charity,

You allowed a grand total of 34 minutes from the time Gohan his question till you accused me of hiding.

Are you like a closet coffee drinker that all amped up or something? Don't you have other things to do other then hit refresh??

[Gohan]

Uhhh, BYU, did you read my above post? No more insulting of other posters, COMPRENDE?!

[BYU Alterego]

To encourage back on subjectness, I'll add a comment about the Gold Plates.

I think that if they were genuine, they would add an incredible amount of credence to Mormonism.

Of course there will always be nay-sayers, hardened Atheists, general disbelief. But the proportions of believer vs. non-believer would be dramatically different.

To believe in Mormonism you have to have a very low standand for evidence, at least in the traditional sense. (flame shields up)

By being able to raise that standard of evidence, you automatically bring in all the people whose standard it meets that you were missing out on before.

Joseph Smith would be a non-issue if the plates were available for public scrutiny.

A good example of that would be the Nobel prize winning scientist Kary Mullis who invented PCR. The guy dropped acid and said the squirrel told him how the enzymes would work. Crazy right? He should be totally discredited right? Well I for one would have no job without him. Billions of dollars revolve around his one invention. Thousands upon thousands of Medical advances owe their existence to him.

Basically, the proof is in the pudding, regardless of whom the chef is. If the plates were available and there were everying they're were supposed to be it would be huge.

[BYU Alterego]

Uhhh, BYU, did you read my above post? No more insulting of other posters, COMPRENDE?!

Are you ready to go to bat for me as well amigo?

Moderator: You are one post away from the queue.

After reading your ongoing remarks to Charity, you are on the queue.

[Jarrod]

For those who may be deceived into thinking that Joseph Smith caused the persecutions that plagued the Saints, and that there is no reality in Satan, maybe the following will be enlightening. I doubt it, however. I didn't include any references from the Book of Mormon because you wouldn't believe those, either. But at least, with the Bible, you have less excuse.

Zech. 3: 1 AND he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.

2 Cor. 2: 11 Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.

Oh well.

Charity, there is ample proof that Joseph did in fact incite some of the plagues that befell the early saints. Some Mormons justify Joseph's pronouncements and insist that the local non-Mormons just didn't understand what was happening. Others still, including you, insist that it was just Satan making trouble for the church.

But when Joseph sets himself up as King of Israel, and tells his followers that they are to inherit the New Jerusalem, he is at least somewhat responsible for the problems that ensued when a few Mormons sought to literally inherit property from surrounding non-Mormons. You must understand that Joseph and his followers did, in fact, bring some of their own problems upon themselves unnecessarily. You can't blame everything on Satan and his minions.

[Gohan]

As I said, I'll go to bat for anyone I think is being UNFAIRLY mistreated. So, if I happened across a discussion (now or in the future) where I felt you were being made fun of and generally mistreated, yes I would defend you. If you knew me and what crap I have to deal with on a daily basis, perhaps you wouldn't be skeptical as to why I'm willing to do so.

[Gohan]

Now as to the subject brought up by both you (BYU Alterego) and Jarrod. Joseph is not the only prophet of God to have had problems with personal behavior. Look at Solomon and David in the Old Testament.

[Jarrod]

Now as to the subject brought up by both you (BYU Alterego) and Jarrod. Joseph is not the only prophet of God to have had problems with personal behavior. Look at Solomon and David in the Old Testament.

I agree. Joseph was just a guy, whether he was a prophet or a charlatan. Which is why I feel it is important that we all recognize that it does nobody's argument any good to build the case on "Satan is the reason why this or that happened." Charity has been using that one quite a bit, and it makes about as much sense as anyone else saying that Joseph's imperfections are proof that he wasn't a prophet.

The logic that says "Joseph was a prophet who made mistakes" is not consistent with the logic that says "People who persecuted Joseph and the saints were evil men working at the behest of Satan." I say you can't have it both ways.

[Gohan]

I concur, the prophet made mistakes as every man does. I don't beleive that the opposition was "working at the behest of Satan". Instead I think that he (the devil) did what he usually does, he planted subtle suggestions in their hearts. He can do this with anyone, including a Prophet of God. These suggestions can just be little things, such as influencing us to react differently to a certain situation or making us consider doing things that we would never normally do. This may seem like a contridiction to what you stated Jarrod (and it might be, my logic confuses me sometimes )

[LaBarge]

I think that had the Plates remained with Joseph they would have either been stolen by a dissenter, or stolen by mobs.

There were plenty of people wiling to commit atrocities against the Mormons.

At Haun's Mill about seventeen men and boys were killed and twelve were wounded.

And of course we all know what happened to Joseph and Hyrum at Carthage. John Taylor was lucky.

I ask myself what these sort of men would have been willing to do had they suspected the Saints had in their possession a significant amount of gold. Enough to make many men very wealthy.

Of course none of this can be proved, but I am of the opinion that had the plates remained with Joseph they would have eventually been ilegaly seized in some way or another.

Think about how hard it would have been for Joseph, even with others helping him, to keep the plates safe at all times. It would have been next to impossible.

[Jarrod]

I think that had the Plates remained with Joseph they would have either been stolen by a dissenter, or stolen by mobs.

There were plenty of people wiling to commit atrocities against the Mormons.

At Haun's Mill about seventeen men and boys were killed and twelve were wounded.

And of course we all know what happened to Joseph and Hyrum at Carthage. John Taylor was lucky.

I ask myself what these sort of men would have been willing to do had they suspected the Saints had in their possession a significant amount of gold. Enough to make many men very wealthy.

Of course none of this can be proved, but I am of the opinion that had the plates remained with Joseph they would have eventually been ilegaly seized in some way or another.

Think about how hard it would have been for Joseph, even with others helping him, to keep the plates safe at all times.  It would have been next to impossible.

[Calm]

Why require the divine help if it is easier and safer in the long run for all to remove the plates and the temptation? After all, even if the plates could be totally protected, there are still others that could have been harmed because they were innocent bystanders (think mistaken identity here or hostages). Effort was required to care for them, I think JS had other things to devote his time and energy to.

I'm not arguing all of this myself, just see it as a possibility. I think the Lord 'interferes' to a certain extent, but he keeps it to a minimum for a variety of reasons.

Of course, what is a minimum to me might not seem the same to another.

[LaBarge]

I think that had the Plates remained with Joseph they would have either been stolen by a dissenter, or stolen by mobs.

There were plenty of people wiling to commit atrocities against the Mormons.

At Haun's Mill about seventeen men and boys were killed and twelve were wounded.

And of course we all know what happened to Joseph and Hyrum at Carthage. John Taylor was lucky.

I ask myself what these sort of men would have been willing to do had they suspected the Saints had in their possession a significant amount of gold. Enough to make many men very wealthy.

Of course none of this can be proved, but I am of the opinion that had the plates remained with Joseph they would have eventually been ilegaly seized in some way or another.

Think about how hard it would have been for Joseph, even with others helping him, to keep the plates safe at all times.  It would have been next to impossible.

This males little sense when you consider all that Joseph said about how the plates were protected. He told stories of how people would come looking for them but somehow always fell short of their goal. These stories lead us to believe that Joseph had divine help in protecting them. If this was the case, why would Moroni take them back?

It makes plenty of sense.

You are referring to Joseph's early days in the church, right? The Book of Mormon was pblished in March 1830, church organized the next month.

The persecution that Joseph and his associates were dealt in the early days paled in comparison to what they experienced later on.

When Joseph "told stories of how people would come looking for the plats and how they would somehow always fell short of acquiring them" did this include mobs with guns kiling men and children?

Had Joseph had the plates during those periods of violent persecution it is not unreasonable to presume that violant men would have taken them.

[1dc]

It would be easy to spend one's entire life having faith in any one religions claims, and justify it by claiming God values faith.

Indeed, many do just that . . or the opposite saying there is no God.

And then one comes back to conscience and the light of Christ . . one can say anything . . what is in one's heart remains what it is.

None of this creates a problem for LDS theology, however.

[1dc]

I wholeheartedly disagree with you on this Charity. There is more known about Joseph Smith's life than the vast majority of humans that ever lived. He was well known, and many had contributing opinions about his character for both good and bad. We have a lifetime of well documented actions and decisions taken by him. We have entire volumes dedicated to his words and his beliefs.

If we were to interview all of those who believe you have made mistakes or otherwise disagreed with you would it make them correct and you incorrect when you were not?

The sum of your life is not merely what others think about you . . it is what is in your heart.

[Moksha]

Is there any chance they are buried in the sand inside the lost Ark of the Covenant and are locked away in the top secret warehouse of the Smithsonian Insititute?

More drawbacks to a literal interpretation.

[James Clifford Miller]

This makes little sense when you consider all that Joseph said about how the plates were protected. He told stories of how people would come looking for them but somehow always fell short of their goal. These stories lead us to believe that Joseph had divine help in protecting them. If this was the case, why would Moroni take them back?