Case of the Missing Golden Plates

[Nisfor]

Wrong hill cumorah. The one with the room full of plates must have been in south america.

Here is a real question. What happened to the stone box that the plates were in? I am sure no stone on the Hill Cumorah was left unturned after JS claimed he found the plates. Where did the stone box go? Even that much evidence would be interesting to find.

I got a book entitled '500 Little Known Facts in Mormon History' as a Christmas present a few years ago, in which there's a quote by an early GA (whose name I can't remember offhand). He states that he returned to the Palmyra area and that the stone box had been 'washed down the hill' and 'broken up' a few years previously (I'd guess mid- to late- 1800s). There may have been some speculation that a farmer used the pieces to build a wall or foundation to a house or something. I'll see if I can find the quotation, date and name of the GA when I get home and look it up.

Good thing Moroni led Joseph to the plates when he did. The stone box had stayed buried in the Hill Cumorah (not the one in South America, the one in NY) for hundreds of years - but if God had just waited a few decades more the stone box would've been washed down the hill and *who knows* what kind of ne'er-do-well would have found the plates and melted them down (or attempted to start some new, wacky religion).

But again - the 'evidence' is again not there. This time it's not as 'miraculous' as 'an angle took it' - but still - it appears that God wants to 'hide the truth' in any way he can

[why me]

Wrong hill cumorah. The one with the room full of plates must have been in south america.

Here is a real question. What happened to the stone box that the plates were in? I am sure no stone on the Hill Cumorah was left unturned after JS claimed he found the plates. Where did the stone box go? Even that much evidence would be interesting to find.

I got a book entitled '500 Little Known Facts in Mormon History' as a Christmas present a few years ago, in which there's a quote by an early GA (whose name I can't remember offhand). He states that he returned to the Palmyra area and that the stone box had been 'washed down the hill' and 'broken up' a few years previously (I'd guess mid- to late- 1800s). There may have been some speculation that a farmer used the pieces to build a wall or foundation to a house or something. I'll see if I can find the quotation, date and name of the GA when I get home and look it up.

Good thing Moroni led Joseph to the plates when he did. The stone box had stayed buried in the Hill Cumorah (not the one in South America, the one in NY) for hundreds of years - but if God had just waited a few decades more the stone box would've been washed down the hill and *who knows* what kind of ne'er-do-well would have found the plates and melted them down (or attempted to start some new, wacky religion).

But again - the 'evidence' is again not there. This time it's not as 'miraculous' as 'an angle took it' - but still - it appears that God wants to 'hide the truth' in any way he can

I was once given a book by a writer that I cannot remember at the moment, who claimed that Mark Twain's quotation in his book that I cannot remember at the moment was in fact not true. However, there was some speculation that a barber, discovered that particular qoutation in that book which I cannot remember in order to demonstrate the plausibility of Mark Twain's reaction to that above mentioned book.

But the real question is: What was that above mentioned quotation that I just cannot remember at this moment? Any clues?

[MsOpinionated]

Wrong hill cumorah. The one with the room full of plates must have been in south america.

Here is a real question. What happened to the stone box that the plates were in? I am sure no stone on the Hill Cumorah was left unturned after JS claimed he found the plates. Where did the stone box go? Even that much evidence would be interesting to find.

ANY evidence would be great.

Why are some people so sure that God has no problem deceiving us to strengthen our faith? Was God not forthcoming enough prior to the 19th century? He seems to have laid down the law more than sufficiently since the dawn of man. He gave us the 10 Commandments, he gave us his son to spread the gospel and forgive us of our sins even though we are hopelessly flawed.

Some of you argue that the plates were taken back for protection. Can God not protect things that are here on earth? You put your faith in him everyday to protect you and your loved ones, even your immortal soul, but the idea that he can't ensure the protection of some gold is reasonable to you?

Maybe my view is too simplistic for some. I have a hard time quoting Dr's, Prof, modern day apostles and prophets, and apologists from either side. Sure, many of them share my views to some extent, but they are still just mere men/women and not the final authourity on God and his reasoning.

The only authority I do recognize is God. I find his answers in the Bible. Up to now I have not found a reference in the Bible that would indicate that God would give us an amazing gift, let it only be seen by one human being, and then snatch it back and leave us to wonder why. If I am wrong then please correct me.

Sorry for the rant...

[Nisfor]

I was once given a book by a writer that I cannot remember at the moment, who claimed that Mark Twain's quotation in his book that I cannot remember at the moment was in fact not true. However, there was some speculation that a barber, discovered that particular qoutation in that book which I cannot remember in order to demonstrate the plausibility of Mark Twain's reaction to that above mentioned book.

But the real question is: What was that above mentioned quotation that I just cannot remember at this moment? Any clues?

The quote from Mark Twain has to be the one about the Book of Mormon in 'Roughing It' -

  ALL men have heard of the Mormon Bible, but few except the "elect" have seen it, or, at least, taken the trouble to read it. I brought away a copy from Salt Lake. The book is a curiosity to me, it is such a pretentious affair, and yet so "slow," so sleepy; such an insipid mess of inspiration. It is chloroform in print. If Joseph Smith composed this book, the act was a miracle -- keeping awake while he did it was, at any rate. If he, according to tradition, merely translated it from certain ancient and mysteriously-engraved plates of copper, which he declares he found under a stone, in an out-of-the-way locality, the work of translating was equally a miracle, for the same reason.

  The book seems to be merely a prosy detail of imaginary history, with the Old Testament for a model; followed by a tedious plagiarism of the New Testament. The author labored to give his words and phrases the quaint, old-fashioned sound and structure of our King James's translation of the Scriptures; and the result is a mongrel -- half modern glibness, and half ancient simplicity and gravity. The latter is awkward and constrained; the former natural, but grotesque by the contrast. Whenever he found his speech growing too modern -- which was about every sentence or two -- he ladled in a few such Scriptural phrases as "exceeding sore," "and it came to pass," etc., and made things satisfactory again. "And it came to pass" was his pet. If he had left that out, his Bible would have been only a pamphlet.

Too bad this quote is too large for signature lines though perhaps one could choose select snippets from it if they wished.

I'm not sure who it was that claimed Twain's statement wasn't true. Or who the barber is.

[why me]

Wrong hill cumorah. The one with the room full of plates must have been in south america.

Here is a real question. What happened to the stone box that the plates were in? I am sure no stone on the Hill Cumorah was left unturned after JS claimed he found the plates. Where did the stone box go? Even that much evidence would be interesting to find.

ANY evidence would be great.

Why are some people so sure that God has no problem deceiving us to strengthen our faith? Was God not forthcoming enough prior to the 19th century? He seems to have laid down the law more than sufficiently since the dawn of man. He gave us the 10 Commandments, he gave us his son to spread the gospel and forgive us of our sins even though we are hopelessly flawed.

Some of you argue that the plates were taken back for protection. Can God not protect things that are here on earth? You put your faith in him everyday to protect you and your loved ones, even your immortal soul, but the idea that he can't ensure the protection of some gold is reasonable to you?

Maybe my view is too simplistic for some. I have a hard time quoting Dr's, Prof, modern day apostles and prophets, and apologists from either side. Sure, many of them share my views to some extent, but they are still just mere men/women and not the final authourity on God and his reasoning.

The only authority I do recognize is God. I find his answers in the Bible. Up to now I have not found a reference in the Bible that would indicate that God would give us an amazing gift, let it only be seen by one human being, and then snatch it back and leave us to wonder why. If I am wrong then please correct me.

Sorry for the rant...

As I understand it the book was seen by twelve people. Joseph Smith and the 11 witnesses.

I am not sure that god has left any proof that he is god. But there is a lot of faith out there but nothing definite. The muslims have the Koran. They base their faith on that book. It is by faith that they base their claim.

Likewise for the lds. Where has god left proof? In this instance of the BofM, we do have some substantial 'proof'. We have the witnesses. Either they saw what they saw...or they lied. Likewise for Oliver Cowdery and the receiving of the priesthood from John the Baptist. Either he lied or he told the truth. Strange but there is modern day evidence that there is a god. But it is soooo difficult for people to believe the testimony of others.

[why me]

I was once given a book by a writer that I cannot remember at the moment, who claimed that Mark Twain's quotation in his book that I cannot remember at the moment was in fact not true. However, there was some speculation that a barber, discovered that particular qoutation in that book which I cannot remember in order to demonstrate the plausibility of Mark Twain's reaction to that above mentioned book.

But the real question is: What was that above mentioned quotation that I just cannot remember at this moment? Any clues? 

The quote from Mark Twain has to be the one about the Book of Mormon in 'Roughing It' -

[flavo]

Why did God/Moroni take back the golden plates? I'm interested in what you tell yourselves, your children, and especially your non-LDS friends.

You got the ten commandments right?

[Jarrod]

Wrong hill cumorah. The one with the room full of plates must have been in south america.

Actually, I bet the reason nobody has found the stone box is because they haven't made the appropriate preparations. Duh!

First, you have to be married. Next, you have to approach the place in a carriage drawn by a black horse. Then you have to make sure this is happening on the midnight of the vernal equinox (Sept 21). If all goes right, you should be granted access. This occult stuff isn't all that hard, really. Except for the white toad that tries to whack you on the head. Getting through that guy must be tough.

[Pahoran]

Wrong hill cumorah. The one with the room full of plates must have been in south america.

Actually, I bet the reason nobody has found the stone box is because they haven't made the appropriate preparations. Duh!

First, you have to be married. Next, you have to approach the place in a carriage drawn by a black horse. Then you have to make sure this is happening on the midnight of the vernal equinox (Sept 21). If all goes right, you should be granted access. This occult stuff isn't all that hard, really. Except for the white toad that tries to whack you on the head. Getting through that guy must be tough.

You must be terribly disappointed that the "Salamander Letter" is a forgery....

Regards,

Pahoran

[Nisfor]

Wrong hill cumorah. The one with the room full of plates must have been in south america.

Actually, I bet the reason nobody has found the stone box is because they haven't made the appropriate preparations. Duh!

First, you have to be married. Next, you have to approach the place in a carriage drawn by a black horse. Then you have to make sure this is happening on the midnight of the vernal equinox (Sept 21). If all goes right, you should be granted access. This occult stuff isn't all that hard, really. Except for the white toad that tries to whack you on the head. Getting through that guy must be tough.

That totally sounds like an awesome quest in an MMORPG.

[JOSEPH_SMITH] marries [EMMA_HALE]

[EMMA_HALE] renamed to [EMMA_SMITH]

Vernal Equinox is occurring!

[JOSEPH_SMITH] enters carriage drawn by black horses...

[EMMA_SMITH] enters carriage drawn by black horses...

[JOSEPH_SMITH] and [EMMA_SMITH] ride in carriage drawn by black horses to Hill Cumorah.

[PL4T3_HUNTER] says: 'Hi!'

[JOSEPH_SMITH] uses [ALVIN'S REMAINS] to begin invocation...

[WHITE TOAD] is summonned!

[PL4T3_HUNTER] says: 'invite!!!!111'

[WHITE TOAD] whacks [JOSEPH_SMITH] on head for 120 HP!

[JOSEPH_SMITH] strikes [WHITE TOAD] for 1000 HP!

[WHITE TOAD] whacks [JOSEPH_SMITH] on head for 150 HP!

[PL4T3_HUNTER] says: 'D00D!!!  INVITE!!!111  I need 2 loot 2!!!!111'

[JOSEPH_SMITH] casts [sMITE] for 3000 HP!

[WHITE TOAD] dies!

[WHITE TOAD] drops [sTONE BOX].

[JOSEPH_SMITH] opens [sTONE BOX].

[JOSEPH_SMITH] loots [LABAN'S SWORD].

[JOSEPH_SMITH] loots [LIAHONA].

[JOSEPH_SMITH] loots [GOLDEN PLATES].

[PL4T3_HUNTER] says: 'D00D - I've been camping this spawn 4 a week!!!!11'

[PL4T3_HUNTER] says: 'You totally ninjad my golden plates!!!11!'

[JOSEPH_SMITH] says: 'LOL N00B PLATES R MINE!'

[PL4T3_HUNTER] yells: '[JOSEPH_SMITH] is a ninja!!!!! Don't group w/ him!!!'

[JOSEPH_SMITH] casts [ARBITRARY LABEL] on [PL4T3_HUNTER].

[PL4T3_HUNTER] renamed to [ANTI_MORMON].

[ANTI-MORMON] says: 'WTF?!?!?!!111'

[JOSEPH_SMITH] says: 'LOL NOOB U GOT PWNED'

[Jarrod]

You must be terribly disappointed that the "Salamander Letter" is a forgery....

Not at all! But if I was, I'm sure I wouldn't be as disappointed as anyone who might have paid a ton of money for such a thing.

By the way, why did you bring up the Salamander Letter? Are you suggesting that any of Joseph's accounts of performing occult rituals while seeking to obtain the plates are, in fact, forgeries?

[why me]

Wrong hill cumorah. The one with the room full of plates must have been in south america.

Actually, I bet the reason nobody has found the stone box is because they haven't made the appropriate preparations. Duh!

First, you have to be married. Next, you have to approach the place in a carriage drawn by a black horse. Then you have to make sure this is happening on the midnight of the vernal equinox (Sept 21). If all goes right, you should be granted access. This occult stuff isn't all that hard, really. Except for the white toad that tries to whack you on the head. Getting through that guy must be tough.

That totally sounds like an awesome quest in an MMORPG.

[JOSEPH_SMITH] marries [EMMA_HALE]

[EMMA_HALE] renamed to [EMMA_SMITH]

Vernal Equinox is occurring!

[JOSEPH_SMITH] enters carriage drawn by black horses...

[EMMA_SMITH] enters carriage drawn by black horses...

[JOSEPH_SMITH] and [EMMA_SMITH] ride in carriage drawn by black horses to Hill Cumorah.

[PL4T3_HUNTER] says: 'Hi!'

[JOSEPH_SMITH] uses [ALVIN'S REMAINS] to begin invocation...

[WHITE TOAD] is summonned!

[PL4T3_HUNTER] says: 'invite!!!!111'

[WHITE TOAD] whacks [JOSEPH_SMITH] on head for 120 HP!

[JOSEPH_SMITH] strikes [WHITE TOAD] for 1000 HP!

[WHITE TOAD] whacks [JOSEPH_SMITH] on head for 150 HP!

[PL4T3_HUNTER] says: 'D00D!!!

[Nisfor]

And so we see the end of a thread...may it rest in peace and in comfort in the knowledge that there are people who weep for the intellingence of humankind.

At least I have chicken.

[Pahoran]

You must be terribly disappointed that the "Salamander Letter" is a forgery....

Not at all! But if I was, I'm sure I wouldn't be as disappointed as anyone who might have paid a ton of money for such a thing.

He didn't have to be disappointed. He's dead. Your hero Hofmann murdered him.

By the way, why did you bring up the Salamander Letter?

I brought it up because it's the nearest thing to "evidence" for the phony "white toad" story you cited as if it were authentic.

Part of that "great deal" you think you "know" about Joseph and The Book of Mormon, is it?

Are you suggesting that any of Joseph's accounts of performing occult rituals while seeking to obtain the plates are, in fact, forgeries?

I'm sorry, what "accounts" are those?

Are you perchance referring to the ridiculous "bleeding ghost" story, or the absurd "necromancy" story, neither of which are Joseph's?

Regards,

Pahoran

[Lachoneus]

  Then you have to make sure this is happening on the midnight of the vernal equinox (Sept 21). 

The vernal equinox occurs in March, not September. Joseph received the plates on the 22nd, not the 21st.

[Scott]

Why did God/Moroni take back the golden plates? I'm interested in what you tell yourselves, your children, and especially your non-LDS friends.

#1- I don't know.

That's my most common & powerful answer.

After that, I have lots of ideas. I'm sure most/all of them have already been mentioned, though.

#2- To test faith. Providing proof isn't God's method operandus, except in a few specific cases.

Oddly enough, even then it rarely really works. The Egyptian slaves walked through an ocean, and then worshipped a golden calf not long after. I'm sure that plenty of people could look at the golden plates at Temple Square, and then return to their own religious services the following Sunday. Faith isn't about proof, it's about a still small voice. "Proof" rarely does more than obfuscate that voice, IMO.

I know, I know... I'm conditioned and mindless and Morg.

#3- They were sealed, and it isn't yet appropriate for us to read the rest of them.

#4- To remove them from Satan's influence. 60 pounds of gold containing ancient writings would fetch a hefty price. Not to mention that lots of religions would love to see the plates vanish.

There are more, these are the ones I can think of off the top of my head.

Interesting thread!

[Jarrod]

He didn't have to be disappointed.

[Fatboy]

Wrong hill cumorah. The one with the room full of plates must have been in south america.

Here is a real question. What happened to the stone box that the plates were in? I am sure no stone on the Hill Cumorah was left unturned after JS claimed he found the plates. Where did the stone box go? Even that much evidence would be interesting to find.

ANY evidence would be great.

Why are some people so sure that God has no problem deceiving us to strengthen our faith?  Was God not forthcoming enough prior to the 19th century?  He seems to have laid down the law more than sufficiently since the dawn of man.  He gave us the 10 Commandments, he gave us his son to spread the gospel and forgive us of our sins even though we are hopelessly flawed.

How do you know this? What evidence do you have to back this belief?

Some of you argue that the plates were taken back for protection.  Can God not protect things that are here on earth?  You put your faith in him everyday to protect you and your loved ones, even your immortal soul, but the idea that he can't ensure the protection of some gold is reasonable to you?

I know this is an old statement, but one third of the record was still sealed. What ever was on the rest of the record needed to be protected for when God reveals it. Yet you put your faith in what?

Maybe my view is too simplistic for some.  I have a hard time quoting Dr's, Prof, modern day apostles and prophets, and apologists from either side.  Sure, many of them share my views to some extent, but they are still just mere men/women and not the final authourity on God and his reasoning.

So?? Do you think that I accept every thing I hear from the prophet without asking the source of all truth? I know some who do, but I do not.

The only authority I do recognize is God.  I find his answers in the Bible.  Up to now I have not found a reference in the Bible that would indicate that God would give us an amazing gift, let it only be seen by one human being, and then snatch it back and leave us to wonder why.  If I am wrong then please correct me.

How do you know that there is anything from God in the Bible? Because someone told you it was?

ho hum

[Pahoran]

He didn't have to be disappointed.

[Jarrod]

Faith isn't about proof, it's about a still small voice.  "Proof" rarely does more than obfuscate that voice, IMO.

I mean no disrespect to you Scott, but I say poppycock. Faith must be based on something. In Mormonism, we are told that faith can begin with something so small as a desire to believe. But somehow we Mormons have let this idea run away and suggest that anything more than such small beginnings are harmful to faith. Bull crap. Faith has to be based on something, but it doesn't have to be small or lacking in evidence.

...lots of religions would love to see the plates vanish.

No, no, NOOO! What makes you think that other religionists aren't seeking truth? I think your statement betrays a distrust that I believe is common in Mormonism: Most religions out there are only self-serving, non-truth-seeking, social clubs, or at best, not interested in "the real truth". I disagree.

How can Mormons assert that the world is full of people searching for the truth but who know not where to find it (meaning they just haven't found Mormonism yet), and then suggest that other churches would want the plates to disappear?

Personally, I believe that if the church had the plates, it would be overflowing with orders of magnitude more members than it has now, and they would have good, reliable testimonies.

[Jarrod]

Pahoran, I'm just not interested in going on with you. Go ahead and do your victory dance or whatever. You've vanquished the anti-Mormon (though I am not an anti-Mormon). I'm out of time and energy today, and my bus is approaching.

[charity]

Jarrod wrote: "Or do you discount such accounts, as Charity apparently does, as lies spun by men working at the behest of Satan?"

Jarrod, I have very high standards for evaluating historical material. Since we do not have live recordings of the events in question then we use a heirarchy.

1. People. Are the people who are recounting the event the people who were actually the participants? Were they witnesses? Or were they told about things they did not see themselves? The further down the line "my cousin told me her friend's brother-in-law told her" the less reliable.

2. Time. How close in time is the recording of the event to when the event happened? Those 1880 and 1890 accounts of an elderly person telling a nephew about something that happened 60 years earlier are really suspect.

3. Subjectivity. What is the disposition of the person recording the event? Abraham Lincoln's biolgrapher should probably not be a southern secessionist.

And yes, when I find something that is particularly vile, written by somebody's third cousin's next door neighbor, who 90 years ago was 6 years old and remembers hearing someone say something bad about Joseph Smith and she tells it to an exmo who runs an anti website, I tend to think that person is being influenced by the adversary. I'm funny that way.

[MsOpinionated]

Ms O: Why are some people so sure that God has no problem deceiving us to strengthen our faith?  Was God not forthcoming enough prior to the 19th century?  He seems to have laid down the law more than sufficiently since the dawn of man.  He gave us the 10 Commandments, he gave us his son to spread the gospel and forgive us of our sins even though we are hopelessly flawed.

Fatboy: How do you know this? What evidence do you have to back this belief?

How do I know what Fatboy? I'm not sure that I claimed to know anything in the paragraph, it was merely a series of observations to counter the view that God somehow withholds information from us.

Ms O: Some of you argue that the plates were taken back for protection.  Can God not protect things that are here on earth?  You put your faith in him everyday to protect you and your loved ones, even your immortal soul, but the idea that he can't ensure the protection of some gold is reasonable to you?

Fatboy: I know this is an old statement, but one third of the record was still sealed. What ever was on the rest of the record needed to be protected for when God reveals it. Yet you put your faith in what?

I put my faith in Jesus, Fatboy. It's that simple, really.

Ms O: Maybe my view is too simplistic for some.  I have a hard time quoting Dr's, Prof, modern day apostles and prophets, and apologists from either side.  Sure, many of them share my views to some extent, but they are still just mere men/women and not the final authourity on God and his reasoning.

Fatboy: So?? Do you think that I accept every thing I hear from the prophet without asking the source of all truth? I know some who do, but I do not.

I was not accusing you of anything, nor implying that you accept everything you hear as gospel. The quote I made above were MY feelings. I wasn't guessing about YOUR'S.

The only authority I do recognize is God.  I find his answers in the Bible.  Up to now I have not found a reference in the Bible that would indicate that God would give us an amazing gift, let it only be seen by one human being, and then snatch it back and leave us to wonder why.  If I am wrong then please correct me.

How do you know that there is anything from God in the Bible? Because someone told you it was?

You know, this answering a question with a question gets really old Fatboy Freud. Can you answer the question? The Bible, as I like to see it, is a collection of many experiences with God from various people, and the first hand accounts of the apostles who lived and learned from Christ himself. I know very well that men wrote the Bible. They also spoke with God and were given his instruction. I will not be drawn into a debate on the BOM or validating my faith further for you. I really have had my fill of it for now. My question is still out there though...has there ever been an instance of God keeping something protected for the time being?

[why me]

Pahoran, I'm just not interested in going on with you.  Go ahead and do your victory dance or whatever.  You've vanquished the anti-Mormon (though I am not an anti-Mormon).  I'm out of time and energy today, and my bus is approaching.

That's fine. But I am sure that you will return for another round of action.

I think that you just don't quite get it do you? The people here are not so taken with ill-logic. The people here are not members who are rummaging through anti-mormon sites embibbing all the stories that may or may have been concocted by speculators like yourself. Many have been there and done that and they have remained strong through sound understanding and logic. But they are not proud of that fact. They do not gloat with a victory dance.

It is not so easy to have your way and your victory. You need to earn it.

That being said, I think that you need to acknowledge that the people who are defending mormonism are making sound replies to your statements and inquiries.

[Jarrod]

Pahoran, I'm just not interested in going on with you.