Jump to content

Case of the Missing Golden Plates


The Dude

Recommended Posts

Does the greatest Being in all the universe really have such petty interests as to obstruct His followers' ability to validate the key foundational claim by taking back the material evidence? Aren't you apologists a little bit ticked off sometimes, with the relatively flimsy evidence that has been scratched up so far, when the real thing was "once upon a time" in the Church's possession? Or maybe you never thought about it that way?

Why did God/Moroni take back the golden plates? I'm interested in what you tell yourselves, your children, and especially your non-LDS friends.

Link to comment

I believe it was because their purpose had been served, the Book of Mormon was translated, and the Sealed Portion was not to be revealed yet. There is also, the fact that it was becoming increasingly dangerous for the Prophet to have them in his possession due to the greed of others. What safer place is there, than with God?

Link to comment

IMO- There are enough people fighting over the details of the manuscript and publication of the Book of Mormon already. I just can't see how something as precious as the plates regarding their position as a repository of sacred knowledge (remember the sealed parts) would be useful sitting around so every amateur and professional linguist could start debates over Josephs translation of them.

Their presence wouldn't convince those who thought it was a forgery. They would just add metallury and engraving to the long list of skills Joseph Smith posessed as a young boy in the woods of Vermont.

Link to comment

I'm sure the "believing" answer has something to do with God wanting us to have faith. The plates would be a dead giveaway.

"Yea, faith like unto gullibility, which thing needs be proven by the children of men insomuch as they might prove their faithfulness, which thing is very useful unto God for reasons which I know not. Yea, and I would be exceedingly grateful if it could be explained to me why God shouldest try to make his plans seem so strangely suspicious, that the more wary amoung His children shouldest decide it is suspicious, and not recognize the truth. But, I knowest that I am a simple man, and it is unlikely that this mystery should be unfolded unto mine eyes."

Link to comment

...Their presence wouldn't convince those who thought it was a forgery. They would just add metallury and engraving to the long list of skills Joseph Smith posessed as a young boy in the woods of Vermont.

Very true, the opposition (not anyone here) will always find a way.

Link to comment

I'm sure the "believing" answer has something to do with God wanting us to have faith. The plates would be a dead giveaway.

True as well, having faith and enduring to the end are key parts of our salvation.

And now as I said concerning faith-faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things; therefore if ye have faith ye hope for things which are not seen, which are true.

Link to comment
Their presence wouldn't convince those who thought it was a forgery.

I strongly (but respectfully) disagree. They would be very powerful evidence. If there really were gold plates, inscribed with some kind of reformed Egyptian, I would most certainly believe. I really think nearly anyone would.

Why do you think they wouldn't? Is there any comparably good evidence that you think has failed to convince people to believe? Honestly, I really can't think of anything even close.

Maybe you are right, but boy, I'd sure change my mind about the Book of Mormon.

Link to comment
I'm sure the "believing" answer has something to do with...

You may want to leave the mind reading to Mentok the magnificent. :P

However you are probably pretty accurate with that one. Many do believe that evidence is taken to promote faith. I just think that's a bit of a simplistic answer without also considering why God would not leave signs laying around for our own good.

This verse gives me a hint as to why this might be:

Alma 32:16 Therefore, blessed are they who humble themselves without being compelled to be humble; or rather, in other words, blessed is he that believeth in the word of God, and is baptized without stubbornness of heart, yea, without being brought to know the word, or even compelled to know, before they will believe.

17 Yea, there are many who do say: If thou wilt show unto us a asign from heaven, then we shall know of a surety; then we shall believe.

18 Now I ask, is this faith? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for if a man knoweth a thing he hath no cause to believe, for he knoweth it.

19 And now, how much more cursed is he that knoweth the dwill of God and doeth it not, than he that only believeth, or only hath cause to believe, and falleth into transgression?

Link to comment
IMO- There are enough people fighting over the details of the manuscript and publication of the Book of Mormon already.  I just can't see how something as precious as the plates regarding their position as a repository of sacred knowledge (remember the sealed parts) would be useful sitting around so every amateur and professional linguist could start debates over Josephs translation of them.

That's pretty cynical. I believe the truth comes out eventually, whether vindicating Joseph or vindicating his critics, the golden plates in hand would be the key.

Their presence wouldn't convince those who thought it was a forgery.  They would just add metallury and engraving to the long list of skills Joseph Smith posessed as a young boy in the woods of Vermont.

Metallurgy? You must mean alchemy. :P

Honestly for me, it would make a difference if the plates were on earth. If they could be seen and felt and touched by everyday people, the foundational story of Mormonism wouldn't be quite so suspicious.

Link to comment

I assume that Dude is an atheist and has never read any book of scripture in his life. After all, if God really wanted Israel out of Egypt, why did he obstruct Moses the ability to validate the key foundational [sic] claim that he was to lead Israel? Why didn

Link to comment
Their presence wouldn't convince those who thought it was a forgery.

I strongly (but respectfully) disagree. They would be very powerful evidence. If there really were gold plates, inscribed with some kind of reformed Egyptian, I would most certainly believe. I really think nearly anyone would.

I think that answers the original question.

Link to comment

Our faith in him needs to be tried before we can move on. Look at Job in the Old Testament. I know that Martin Harris showed rubbings from the Gold Plates to a linguist (who's name escapes me at the moment), but that subject has already been discussed on these forums and on FAIR and I won't go into it here.

Link to comment
True as well, having faith and enduring to the end are key parts of our salvation.

Let's be clear: faith and enduring to the end would still be required. The starting point just wouldn't be so shaky.

After all, one of the purposes of the Book of Mormon is to support the Bible as a testimony of Christ. I think it fails at that purpose (for the vast majority of people) because of a suspicious absence of provenance supporting the text.

Link to comment

I think that the "suspicious absence of provenance supporting the text" is were faith comes in, but that could just be my brainwashed LDS mind going :P . Personally, I think there is a great deal of evidence proving the authenticity of the Book of Mormon, but just what that evidence proves is in the eye of the beholder.

Link to comment

Here is another one that is applicable:

7 And he that seeketh asigns shall see signs, but not unto salvation.

8 Verily, I say unto you, there are those among you who seek signs, and there have been such even from the beginning;

9 But, behold, faith cometh not by signs, but signs follow those that believe.

10 Yea, signs come by bfaith, not by the will of men, nor as they please, but by the will of God.

11 Yea, signs come by faith, unto mighty works, for without faith no man pleaseth God; and with whom God is angry he is not well pleased; wherefore, unto such he showeth no signs, only in wrath unto their condemnation.

12 Wherefore, I, the Lord, am not pleased with those among you who have sought after signs and wonders for faith, and not for the good of men unto my glory.

Between the two scriptures it seems to me that faith is a necessary part of our coming unto Christ, for our own growth and so that we do not condemn ourselves through our own weakness and transgression.

Which begs another question, why is faith more useful in our coming unto Christ than evidences? I've started a thread on it..

Link to comment
Their presence wouldn't convince those who thought it was a forgery.

I strongly (but respectfully) disagree. They would be very powerful evidence. If there really were gold plates, inscribed with some kind of reformed Egyptian, I would most certainly believe. I really think nearly anyone would.

Why do you think they wouldn't? Is there any comparably good evidence that you think has failed to convince people to believe? Honestly, I really can't think of anything even close.

Maybe you are right, but boy, I'd sure change my mind about the Book of Mormon.

Sounds like you are saying you need to be compelled to believe? If so, that isn't how GOd operates, at least according to LDS belief.

Actually, I suppose I can see it compelling some and for others the only thing that would "compel" them would be if God appeared before them and told them so. Even still there would be some, or so it would seem, that would even tell God that He (God) is wrong. Kinda like someone, I think it was that Michael Savage guy on the radio who "joked" about how Supreme Court Justice Ginsburg (sp?) would still believe abortion was ok even if God came and told her it wasn't.

Link to comment

Dad, where do you find that scripture, it's a pretty good one.

I think that faith is better then evidence, after all, look what happened to the people that demanded signs/evidence in the scriptures....

I forgot about Thomas, but that may be the exception rather than the rule...or I could be completely wrong *shrugs shoulders* Whatever the Lord seeth fit is fine with me.

Edit: After seeing Katherine's post

Link to comment

www.scriptures.lds.org has a niftly little search function, and if I cant find the scriptures I'm looking for directly, I click on the hotlinks to the topical guide and look from there.

It makes me look like I actually study the cannon and remember stuff!

Sing it with me! ...I love technology...

Link to comment

Well, I certainly wouldn't believe Smith's story just because he produced gold plates. I know full well that if he had them, it would have proved nothing -- certainly not his skill as a translator.

You know what would have happened? The owner of the hill would have sued to get the plates. They were found on his property, he would argue, and Smith came up with that cocking bull story about an angel so he wouldn't have to fork over the plates to their rightful owner. Learned men would guffaw over a farm boy translating the plates and probably agree with the farmer. In the end, the plates wouldn't have proved a datgum thing and anyone who says it would have made all the difference is, well, not telling the truth.

The primary interest would have been $$$$ and no one would care a whit about the Book of Mormon, but rather, the lawsuit that resulted. The plates would be in some museum and anti-Mormon books would be full of all the "evidence" to show that Smith was a fraud who concocted the BOM in a vain attempt to keep them.

They're better off in the Lord's care. Amen.

Cold Steel

Link to comment

I think its almost the same situation with the Bible. We don't have the originals of what was written. We have copies of copies of copies. Luckily for us we have a copy of a copy or just one I don't know of the Book of Mormon.

Link to comment

In a way I kinda sorta agree with The Dude that if we could show the Plates it would lend some credence to Joseph Smith's story. But mostly I agree with the posters who emphasize that some things need to be hidden so we can develop faith. I particularly agree with Daniel Peterson's contribution, recognizing that too much evidence eventually impinges on our agency. Of course, for those who espouse an "absolute sovereignty" of God view, we don't have agency anyway so it wouldn't be any big deal to impinge on it.

I think there may be another reason why the Lord doesn't leave holy relics lying around. My use of the term "holy relics" is intentional and explains, without my verbalizing it, the reason.

Thanks for letting me share. (I learned that phrase in AA. :P )

(Incidentally Mr. Peterson, why are you monitoring RfM's monitoring of you? Paranoid? They have really cool drugs for that. I know, I know. It's not paranoia if they're really after you. <_< )

(Edited to fix grammar and include the the slur against Daniel. :unsure: )

Link to comment

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...