Marriage to virgins

[webbles]

7 hours ago, AnchoredinChrist said:

Because he was the church president, so it was his name they were using to seduce women,

I preached in the grove, and pronounced a curse upon all Adulterers and Fornicators, and unvirtuous persons and those who have made use of my name to carry on their iniquitous designs. (DHC 4:587) 

The public will perceive the aggravating nature of this case; and will see the propriety of this exposure. Had he only been guilty of adultry, that was sufficient to stamp disgrace upon him because he is a man of better information, and has been held high in the estimation of many. But when it is considered that his mind was so intent upon his cruel, and abominable deeds, and his own reputation not being sufficient to enable him to do it, he must make use of my name in order to effect his purposes, an enlightened public will not be astonished at the course I have pursued.
In order that it may be distinctly understood that he wilfully and knowingly lied, in the above insinuations, I will lay before my readers an affidavit taken before an alderman of the city, after I had charged him with these things:
(19 May 1842 - Nauvoo City Council)

“[A] charge [was] [preferred] against Chauncey L. Higbee by George Miller for unchaste and un-virtuous conduct with the widow [Sarah] Miller, and others.” In the trial, “Three witness[es] testified that he had seduced [several women] and at different times [had] been guilty of unchaste and unvirtuous conduct with them and taught the doctrine that it was right to have free intercourse with women if it was kept secret &c and also taught that Joseph Smith authorised him to practice these things &c” (24, May 1842 -Joseph files charges against Chauncey L. Higbee in court.)

25 May 1842 - Catherine Warren learns that John C. Bennett incorrectly claimed support by the leaders of the church --
The charge was preferred “against Ms. Catherine Warren by George Miller for unchaste and unvirtuous conduct with John C. Bennett and others. The defendant confessed to the charge and gave the names of several other [men] who had been guilty having unlawful intercourse with her[,] stating they taught the doctrine that it was right to have free intercourse with women and that the heads of the Church also taught and practiced it[,] …learning that the heads of the church did not believe of [the] practice [of] such things[,] she was willing to confess her sins and did repent before God for what she had done and desired earnestly that the Council would forgive her.”

 

“...he went to some of the females in the city, who knew nothing of him but as an honorable man, & began to teach them that promiscous [promiscuous] intercourse between the sexes, was a doctrine believed in by the Latter-Day Saints, and that there was no harm in it; but this failing, he had recourse to a more influential and desperately wicked course; and that was, to persuade them that myself and others of the authorities of the church not only sanctioned, but practiced the same wicked acts; and when asked why I publicly preached so much against it, said that it was because of the prejudice of the public, and that it would cause trouble in my own house. (Times and Seasons, July 1, 1842, p. 839-840) 

1st for trying to seduce a young girl, living in his house by the name of Phebe Madison. 2nd. For using my name in a blasphemous manner, by saying that I tolerated such things in which he is guilty of lying &c &c. Joseph Smith (Dinger, J. S. (2011). The Nauvoo City and High Council Minutes, p. 479-480. Salt Lake City, UT: Signature Books)

 

I was present with several of the Twelve, and gave an address tending to do away with every evil, and exhorting them to practice virtue and holiness before the Lord— told them that the church had not received any permission from me to commit fornication, adultery, or any corrupt action, but my every word and action has been to the contrary... I condemned such actions in toto, and warned the people present against committing such evils, for it will surely bring a curse upon any person who commits such deeds. (25 November 1843 - Joseph gave an address to the Twelve)

 

I know that the LDS church argument to those quotes is, "But none of those instances were authorized polygamy," but I consider HMD section 43 to address that well too,

 

43. 'Can't polygamy be seen as being different from Celestial plural marriage?'

LDS historians have argued that the "plural marriage" commanded by God and supposedly practiced by Joseph Smith was of a different nature than man-made polygamy, and so argue that even when Joseph condemned polygamy by name, he was never condemning "Celestial plural marriage". One significant problem with this theory is that Joseph's denunciations include not just polygamy by name, but also any plurality of wives:

...we declare that we believe, that one man should have one wife; and one woman, but one husband, except in case of death, when either is at liberty to marry again.

1835 - “General Assembly,” Messenger and Advocate 1 (August 1835) 2: 162.

Question 7th. Do the Mormons believe in having more wives than one. [sic] Answer. No, not at the same time. But they believe that if their companion dies, they have a right to marry again. 

Joseph Smith, July 1838 - [Editorial,] Elder’s Journal, 1 (July 1838), 43.

No man shall have but one wife.

Joseph Smith's office journal, 5 October 1843. As written by Willard Richards

What a thing it is for a man to be accused of committing adultery, and having seven wives, when I can only find one.

Joseph Smith, LDS History of the Church 6:409-411

Another major issue with this theory is that Joseph never used the terms, "plural marriage" nor "Celestial marriage" in any of his first-hand or contemporaneous records. Yet another significant issue with this theory is that D&C 132:1 does not describe itself as giving the doctrine of "Celestial plural marriage" nor "Celestial plurality of wives" but simply, "the principle and doctrine of... having many wives and concubines." 

The terminology that church historians use to distinguish between the polygamy they believe Joseph Smith to have been practicing versus the polygamy they argue him to be condemning appears to be anachronistic, as Joseph condemned, by name, polygamy, spiritual wifism, fornication (the legal term in use), and having more than one wife in general. "Celestial marriage", "Celestial plural marriage", or any of their variations were not in recorded use until after Joseph and Hyrum's deaths, and polygamists in later years describe "spiritual wifery" as being the term in common use previous to their trek west,

...Mrs. Durfee invited my sister, Eliza, and me to her house to spend the afternoon. She introduced the subject of spiritual wives, as they called it in that day.

Emily Dow Partridge Young, "Incidents in the Life of a Mormon Girl", 1876

Spiritual wives, as we were then termed, were not very numerous in those days...

Emily Dow Partridge Young, "Pioneer Day". Women's Exponent, 24 July 1883

At the time [in Nauvoo] 'spiritual wife' was the title by which every woman who entered into the this order was called, for it was taught and practiced as a spiritual order."

Helen Mar Kimball Whitney, Juvenile Instructor. 1882

Brigham Young in 1844, 1845, 1847, 1849, and 1851 used the terms 'spiritual wife' and 'spiritual wifery' when speaking of polygamy. In 1855 Heber C. Kimball preached,

If you oppose any of the works of God you will cultivate a spirit of apostasy. If you oppose what is called the "spiritual wife doctrine," the Patriarchal Order, which is of God, that course will corrode you with a spirit of apostasy, and you will go overboard.

Heber C. Kimball, Salt Lake City. 6 October 1855. Journal of Discourses vol. 3 p. 125

 

First, I actually agree with 43.  I think Joseph did use the same terms for both unauthorized and authorized.  I've read the attempts by Hale and others to show that Joseph did make a difference and I don't find it to be really strong.  I just accept that Joseph lied as that makes the most sense with the evidence.  But, 43 is also misspeaking what Hale and others say.  They are very specific that Joseph used words in specific ways.  Others who he taught absolutely could have picked up different meanings but that doesn't change the fact that Joseph, himself, was very particular.  Check out https://mormonpolygamydocuments.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/Hales-JMH-7-2018-Denying-the-Undeniable.pdf for how Hale deals with some of the statements.

But there was definitely a difference between unauthorized and authorized polygamy.  Even under Brigham, there was unauthorized polygamy that could get you excommunicated (see W. W. Phelps being excommunicating for practicing polygamy in 1848).  Then you have the story from Brigham about a monogamous couple who was sealed by Hyrum and Joseph got after Hyrum for misusing the sealing power (in the Denying the Undeniable article above).  Even today, you could do unauthorized sealings and probably be excommunicated for it (or at least talked to harshly).  So, if Joseph practiced polygamy, he would have had authorized vs unauthorized.  An obvious example of unauthorized is John C. Bennet.  Have you read his "expose"?  He talks about how the women were in 3 tiers (based on the veil they wore) and certain men had access to certain tiers.  It isn't even close to what was happening.

[telnetd]

On 10/22/2026 at 3:59 PM, webbles said:

"Why should they be virgins and how young would these virgins be?"

The first part of that question still makes no sense to me.  "Why should they be virgins?"   Are you asking about why D&C 132 talks about virgins?  What does this have to do with the Joseph F Smith's talk?  I don't see any thing in there about him using the term virgin.

The second part of that question is weird.  There's no mention in Joseph F. Smith about youth.  He says "Young men" but that isn't the same term we use today in the church.  It wasn't until 1906 before it became normal for boys to be regularly ordained to the Aaronic priesthood (https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/history/topics/adjustments-to-priesthood-organization?lang=eng).  Before then, it was sporadic.  Most holders of the Aaronic priesthood would be 20+.  So, the "young men" would probably be men in the 20s or 30s (Joseph F Smith would be ~50 at this time so someone in their 20s and 30s would be young to him).  I would assume the wives that these young men would marry would also be in the 20s.  That was the average age.  It sometimes went lower (usually when the husband was also young).

Yes. I'm making mention of it based on what is written in D&C 132. I figured "virgins" 
would be the context of what Joseph F. Smith said too.

If elders should marry non-virgins, why would verses 61-63 specifically mention only
virgins?

[webbles]

4 hours ago, telnetd said:

Yes. I'm making mention of it based on what is written in D&C 132. I figured "virgins" 
would be the context of what Joseph F. Smith said too.

If elders should marry non-virgins, why would verses 61-63 specifically mention only
virgins?

I guess you need to define what a virgin is.  What do you think D&C 132 means when it says a virgin?  https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/virgin has several definitions.  I would think 3b is the definition ("an unmarried girl or woman") as I don't think I've ever seen anyone say that the men can only marry women who fit under definition 1a.  But I could also see Joseph using the term "virgin" to just mean "woman" in general (since he was sealed to several women who were married).

[Calm]

3 hours ago, webbles said:

But I could also see Joseph using the term "virgin" to just mean "woman" in general (since he was sealed to several women who were married).

My guess is he is not using “virgin” for  “woman” in general, but for a pure woman, meaning righteous.  Her soul is pure rather than her hymen is intact as some seem to define purity in women.

[telnetd]

18 hours ago, webbles said:

I guess you need to define what a virgin is.  What do you think D&C 132 means when it says a virgin?  https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/virgin has several definitions.  I would think 3b is the definition ("an unmarried girl or woman") as I don't think I've ever seen anyone say that the men can only marry women who fit under definition 1a.  But I could also see Joseph using the term "virgin" to just mean "woman" in general (since he was sealed to several women who were married).

"Virgin" in a sexual sense.

And Mary said to the angel, "How will this be, since I am a virgin?" (ESV)
Then said Mary unto the angel, "How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?" (KJV)

[webbles]

1 hour ago, telnetd said:

"Virgin" in a sexual sense.

And Mary said to the angel, "How will this be, since I am a virgin?" (ESV)
Then said Mary unto the angel, "How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?" (KJV)

But that isn't D&C 132.  So, I don't know why we need to use that definition for D&C 132.  Also, the Bible doesn't always use virgin with that meaning.

Joel 1:8 - Lament like a virgin wearing sackcloth for the bridegroom of her youth. (ESV) Lament like a virgin girded with sackcloth for the husband of her youth. (KJV)

Unless you want to say that marriage was never consummated, this verse is describing a widow as a virgin.

[theplains]

4 hours ago, telnetd said:

"Virgin" in a sexual sense.

And Mary said to the angel, "How will this be, since I am a virgin?" (ESV)
Then said Mary unto the angel, "How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?" (KJV)

@webbles @Calm

Muslims seem to hold to a traditional view of "virgins", although they paint a more sensual view of
paradise.

"So; and We shall join them to Companions with beautiful, big, and lustrous eyes" (Yusif Ali, Quran 44:54).

"They will recline (with ease) on Thrones (of dignity) arranged in ranks; and We shall join them to 
Companions, with beautiful big and lustrous eyes" (Yusif Ali, Quran 52:50).

"In them will be (Maidens), chaste, restraining their glances, whom no man or Jinn before them has 
touched" (Yusif Ali, Quran 55:56)

"And (there will be) Companions with beautiful, big, and lustrous eyes, Like unto Pearls well-guarded,
A Reward for the deeds of their past (life)" (Yusif Ali, Quran 56:22–24).

Quran 56:35–37 describes women of a special creation, whom God has made anew ("We have created (their 
Companions) of special creation, And made them virgin - pure (and undefiled), full of love, well-matched".

About 84 english translations are provided for each chapter and verse at https://islamawakened.com/quran/#gsc.tab=0

Then there are other writings (the hadiths, accepted by Sunnis) which describe polygamy in Paradise.

1.] Jamiʿ al-Tirmidhi 1663 - Regarding The Rewards For The Martyr

2] Sunan Ibn Majah 4337 - Description of Paradise

Teachings from Islamic scholars (the tafsirs) indicate some women remain perpetual virgins.

1] Al Islam, chapter 7, Her Other Names

2] Maʿarif al-Quran, commentary on 56:36

The English commentary states:

“The sense is the creation of the maidens of Paradise will be of such a nature that, even after every 
sexual intercourse, they will remain like virgins". 

3] Tafsir al-Quran al-Karim on 56:36.

“All will always remain virgins; whenever their husbands unite with them, they will find them virgins.” 

Some other commentary by Dr. Suad Joseph, a Roman Catholic, was provided in her "Encyclopedia of Women 
and Islamic Cultures".

[webbles]

2 hours ago, theplains said:

@webbles @Calm

Muslims seem to hold to a traditional view of "virgins", although they paint a more sensual view of
paradise.

"So; and We shall join them to Companions with beautiful, big, and lustrous eyes" (Yusif Ali, Quran 44:54).

"They will recline (with ease) on Thrones (of dignity) arranged in ranks; and We shall join them to 
Companions, with beautiful big and lustrous eyes" (Yusif Ali, Quran 52:50).

"In them will be (Maidens), chaste, restraining their glances, whom no man or Jinn before them has 
touched" (Yusif Ali, Quran 55:56)

"And (there will be) Companions with beautiful, big, and lustrous eyes, Like unto Pearls well-guarded,
A Reward for the deeds of their past (life)" (Yusif Ali, Quran 56:22–24).

Quran 56:35–37 describes women of a special creation, whom God has made anew ("We have created (their 
Companions) of special creation, And made them virgin - pure (and undefiled), full of love, well-matched".

About 84 english translations are provided for each chapter and verse at https://islamawakened.com/quran/#gsc.tab=0

Then there are other writings (the hadiths, accepted by Sunnis) which describe polygamy in Paradise.

1.] Jamiʿ al-Tirmidhi 1663 - Regarding The Rewards For The Martyr

2] Sunan Ibn Majah 4337 - Description of Paradise

Teachings from Islamic scholars (the tafsirs) indicate some women remain perpetual virgins.

1] Al Islam, chapter 7, Her Other Names

2] Maʿarif al-Quran, commentary on 56:36

The English commentary states:

“The sense is the creation of the maidens of Paradise will be of such a nature that, even after every 
sexual intercourse, they will remain like virgins". 

3] Tafsir al-Quran al-Karim on 56:36.

“All will always remain virgins; whenever their husbands unite with them, they will find them virgins.” 

Some other commentary by Dr. Suad Joseph, a Roman Catholic, was provided in her "Encyclopedia of Women 
and Islamic Cultures".

Why are you now talking about Muslims?  I don't see what this has to do with D&C 132 or with what Joseph F. Smith said.  It is an interesting diversion but not sure what it has to do with your original subject.

[telnetd]

22 hours ago, webbles said:

But that isn't D&C 132.  So, I don't know why we need to use that definition for D&C 132.  Also, the Bible doesn't always use virgin with that meaning.

Joel 1:8 - Lament like a virgin wearing sackcloth for the bridegroom of her youth. (ESV) Lament like a virgin girded with sackcloth for the husband of her youth. (KJV)

Unless you want to say that marriage was never consummated, this verse is describing a widow as a virgin.

It's possible that a widow remained a virgin.

[webbles]

2 hours ago, telnetd said:

It's possible that a widow remained a virgin.

Sure.  Or we just accept that virgin has more meanings than the one you are trying very hard to force.

[Calm]

3 hours ago, telnetd said:

It's possible that a widow remained a virgin.

You mean she and her husband were celibate before he died in a culture who saw women’s purpose primarily as having children?

[The Nehor]

On 10/28/2026 at 1:05 PM, webbles said:

But that isn't D&C 132.  So, I don't know why we need to use that definition for D&C 132.  Also, the Bible doesn't always use virgin with that meaning.

Joel 1:8 - Lament like a virgin wearing sackcloth for the bridegroom of her youth. (ESV) Lament like a virgin girded with sackcloth for the husband of her youth. (KJV)

Unless you want to say that marriage was never consummated, this verse is describing a widow as a virgin.

You don’t see the difference between the simile of telling a widow to lament “like a virgin” and saying someone is a virgin?

[telnetd]

20 hours ago, Calm said:

You mean she and her husband were celibate before he died in a culture who saw women’s purpose primarily as having children?

It's possible where some unforeseen death occurs before consumation or they choose
to remain celibate.

[telnetd]

22 hours ago, webbles said:

Sure.  Or we just accept that virgin has more meanings than the one you are trying very hard to force.

So the reference to virgins in Doctrine and Covenants 132 is different from 
1 Nephi 11:15–20, 2 Nephi 17:14, and Alma 7:10?

[The Nehor]

On 10/29/2026 at 1:49 PM, webbles said:

Sure.  Or we just accept that virgin has more meanings than the one you are trying very hard to force.

It really doesn’t. It can have a few meanings but it doesn’t refer to widows.

[webbles]

17 hours ago, The Nehor said:

You don’t see the difference between the simile of telling a widow to lament “like a virgin” and saying someone is a virgin?

3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

It really doesn’t. It can have a few meanings but it doesn’t refer to widows.

I'm just pointing that the term virgin doesn't just mean someone who hasn't sex.

[webbles]

6 hours ago, telnetd said:

So the reference to virgins in Doctrine and Covenants 132 is different from 
1 Nephi 11:15–20, 2 Nephi 17:14, and Alma 7:10?

Why does it have to be the same?  I see nothing wrong with the meaning being different. Especially when you look at how Joseph and others followed it.  I have never seen any teaching that says that a polygamist wife must never have had sex.

[The Nehor]

9 hours ago, webbles said:

I'm just pointing that the term virgin doesn't just mean someone who hasn't sex.

There are other meanings but when you are talking about virgins being married the context clue there really ties it down to the “not having had sex yet” definition.

If that is not what is meant than God and/or Joseph Smith are really really bad communicators.