Who has read Jeff Strong why people leave and what we can learn from them?

[Navidad]

On 8/15/2026 at 1:51 PM, bluebell said:

True, kind of.

When the church has been around for as long as it has, starting to disseminate a more accurate history in the late 90s (being generous) isn't really 'a while'.  It's the last 30 years (again, if we are generous).   It's an awesome thing that I am so grateful for, but it's also fairly recent, all things considered.

There are a lot of reasons that even the generous estimates for transparency don't always hold up.  For example, before it was closed down for renovations around 2023 the Beehive House tour focused on teaching about FHE, trying to give away copies of the Book of Mormon, and testifying of the gospel of Jesus Christ.  The tour guides followed a script that pretended BY had one wife and polygamy wasn't a thing.  They even went out of their way to point out "BY's wife's" bedroom.  When I asked (a very friendly and not at all contentious) question about how polygamy worked in the house (I was getting my history degree at the time and was legitimately curious) with just the one wife's bedroom, the sister missionaries had no idea what to say and tried hard to move on and sidestep the question.  Thankfully my family was the only people on the tour so the sisters weren't embarrassed or anything.   Also thankfully, we are a very active family and the sidestepping didn't impact any of our feelings about the church or the gospel it teaches.  My opinion of its 'historical' tours took a hit though. 

I've heard that the tours are going to be historically accurate once it reopens to the public.  Hopefully that is true.  The reviews for the place are really bad on tripadvisor and yelp because the tour promised was not the tour that was delivered and being more open about the history will go a long way to fix that I think.  But, it's still the case that if these changes do happen, they are happening in 2026.  Again, that's not 'for a while'.  That's recent.

I think our leaders understand the need for more transparency now and are very happy to work on getting things right.  The correlated materials now prize accuracy over faith-promoting and that's a very good thing.  I agree that some critics of the church like to really focus on the church "lying" and refuse to acknowledge the information that did exist or the changes that have been rolled out over the years.  Some also tend to not like to discuss how their own family dynamics growing up led to some (or sometimes many) of their issues with the church.

But, we don't need to fall into the all bad vs. all good dichotomy.  If a critic cannot acknowledge anything good from the church or the gospel then that is their own issue.  We don't have to lay the other side of the coin on thick to counter them.  We don't have to defend mistakes just because it's a critic pointing them out. 

 

I hope this response comes across well. . . . Back sometime around 2019 ( I may have the date wrong) or so, I had a VIP tour (just me) of the Beehive House given by the managing director of Temple Square. I think that was his title. I don't remember his name. I was speaking at some meeting in SLC and for some reason, was provided a wonderful tour by an obviously very well-informed church leader who took me anywhere he wanted in the house.

He was a friend of Reid Neilson, who at that time was managing director of the church history department. He later was a mission president and now a leader at BYU. I mention him because I hope he is a friend, but more importantly, a really Godly man who taught me some good lessons while having lunch here in our home in the colonies. No one can ever tell me that members of the LDS church are not Godly after my time with Reid Neilson and my many hours with the bishop of our ward here in Colonia Juárez. Perhaps Reid is the one who arranged the tour for me, or perhaps it was Elder Snow. I really don't remember, and I guess that isn't relevant. 

What was important was that I had a very open and candid tour of all parts of the property. I would describe it as more than just historically accurate. I was grateful for the time and opportunity. I believe that was the trip where I was told that Elder Bednar is my first cousin thirteen times removed! I also got to sing in an impromptu choir in the choir loft of the tabernacle. I was seated in front of the bass pipes. I was glad I had given my talk the day before because I don't think I could hear anything for a week. I got to sit next to two great singers and LDS historians, the Shepherd brothers. Their work on General Conference talks is still one of the best.

Anyway, I just want to say all this to say that everyone I met was very open and candid about church history. I enjoyed my time there very much. If I remember right, I was put up at a Radisson hotel right off Temple Square and walked to a Sheraton Hotel somewhere a few blocks away for the conference. There was a Chinese restaurant in between that I really liked. I guess that is enough of my walk down memory lane. All of this to say that in 2017, 18, or 19 . . . Whenever it was, I was very pleased with the kindness and historical openness shared with this non-member! 

[manol]

4 hours ago, Navidad said:

Very well said. I consider myself to be a “wideness in God's Mercy" kind of a Christian. That term comes from an old hymn that I really treasure. Here are the words,

1. There’s a wideness in God’s mercy,
   Like the wideness of the sea;
   There’s a kindness in God’s justice,
   Which is more than liberty.
2. There is welcome for the sinner,
   And more graces for the good;
   There is mercy with the Savior,
   There is healing in His blood.
3. But we make God’s love too narrow
   By false limits of our own,
   And we magnify its strictness
   With a zeal God will not own.
4. For the love of God is broader
   Than the measures of the mind,
   And the heart of the Eternal
   Is most wonderfully kind.
5. If our love were but more simple,
   We should rest upon God’s word,
   And our lives would be illumined
   By the presence of our Lord.
   
   "If our love were but more simple.". . . . I'll say Amen to that! The song is by Frederick Faber from 1862. Oh, and if anyone is interested—Faber was an Anglican migrant to Roman Catholicism. So he was a religious migrant seventeen years before he wrote this song as a faithful Roman Catholic! I like that!

Beautiful message in those lyrics indeed, THANK YOU Navidad! 

Below is a link to a blog post by a near-death experiencer writing about love.  He does not come from a religious background, but he ends up in a similar place to where Frederick Faber takes us in that inspired hymn.  Here's a quick quote, as a preview:

"Love everyone where they are. Not where you wish they would be."

Love (jonathanashford.com)

[bluebell]

4 hours ago, Navidad said:

I hope this response comes across well. . . . Back sometime around 2019 ( I may have the date wrong) or so, I had a VIP tour (just me) of the Beehive House given by the managing director of Temple Square. I think that was his title. I don't remember his name. I was speaking at some meeting in SLC and for some reason, was provided a wonderful tour by an obviously very well-informed church leader who took me anywhere he wanted in the house.

He was a friend of Reid Neilson, who at that time was managing director of the church history department. He later was a mission president and now a leader at BYU. I mention him because I hope he is a friend, but more importantly, a really Godly man who taught me some good lessons while having lunch here in our home in the colonies. No one can ever tell me that members of the LDS church are not Godly after my time with Reid Neilson and my many hours with the bishop of our ward here in Colonia Juárez. Perhaps Reid is the one who arranged the tour for me, or perhaps it was Elder Snow. I really don't remember, and I guess that isn't relevant. 

What was important was that I had a very open and candid tour of all parts of the property. I would describe it as more than just historically accurate. I was grateful for the time and opportunity. I believe that was the trip where I was told that Elder Bednar is my first cousin thirteen times removed! I also got to sing in an impromptu choir in the choir loft of the tabernacle. I was seated in front of the bass pipes. I was glad I had given my talk the day before because I don't think I could hear anything for a week. I got to sit next to two great singers and LDS historians, the Shepherd brothers. Their work on General Conference talks is still one of the best.

Anyway, I just want to say all this to say that everyone I met was very open and candid about church history. I enjoyed my time there very much. If I remember right, I was put up at a Radisson hotel right off Temple Square and walked to a Sheraton Hotel somewhere a few blocks away for the conference. There was a Chinese restaurant in between that I really liked. I guess that is enough of my walk down memory lane. All of this to say that in 2017, 18, or 19 . . . Whenever it was, I was very pleased with the kindness and historical openness shared with this non-member! 

Very good to know.  The last time I went through was probably around 2010 or 2011.  It sounds like it has already gotten a lot better.

[Rain]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

Very good to know.  The last time I went through was probably around 2010 or 2011.  It sounds like it has already gotten a lot better.

It's hard to know about change though, since his was a special VIP tour for him specifically and given by the managing director of Temple Square.  Not a general, every day tour. 

The weird thing is I know something like 20/25 years ago they did talk about the other wives when I went. And I think (though I'm not sure) in later years when I went again they didn't, just like you experienced.  So why they had it, but then didn't have it,  I don't know. 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Rain said:

It's hard to know about change though, since his was a special VIP tour for him specifically and given by the managing director of Temple Square.  Not a general, every day tour. 

The weird thing is I know something like 20/25 years ago they did talk about the other wives when I went. And I think (though I'm not sure) in later years when I went again they didn't, just like you experienced.  So why they had it, but then didn't have it,  I don't know. 

Different mission presidents I bet or whoever makes the decision.

Edited 6 hours ago by Calm