The hills Cumorah and Ramah revisited

[theplains]

Here's more of what was regarded as LDS gospel "truth".

THE HILL CUMORAH IN NEW YORK. While on a recent visit to the States on business Brother Brigham 
Young, Jun.. and I arranged to make a visit to the hill Cumorah-the hill where Mormon and Moroni 
secreted the records, by the command of the Lord, which were revealed to the Prophet Joseph Smith, 
and from which he translated the Book of Mormon...

     Undoubtedly great changes had occurred in the appearance of the surrounding country since 
the days when Mormon and Moroni had trod the spot where we stood; still, we could readily understand, 
even now, how admirable a position this would be for a general to occupy in watching and directing 
the movements of armies and in scrutinizing the position of an enemy. Around Cumorah is yet a land 
of many waters, rivers and fountains, as Mormon said it was in his day.

     Our emotions on treading on this sacred hill were of the most peculiar character. They were 
indescribable. This was the hill Ramah of the Jaredites, and it is probable that in this vicinity 
Coriantumr and Shiz, with the people whom they led, fought their last battle. For this great battle 
they were four years preparing, gathering the people together from all parts of the land and arming 
men and women, and even children. The battle lasted eight days, and the result was the complete 
extermination of the Jaredite nation, none being left but the Prophet Ether-who warned the nation 
of the fate that awaited it unless the people repented and who lived to record the fulfillment of 
his own warnings and predictions-and Coriantumr who succeeded in slaying his mortal enemy, Shiz.

     It is probable that the Prophet Ether, when he emerged from his hiding-place to view the 
destruction of his race, which he had been inspired to foretell, had ascended this hill and from 
its summit had gazed with profound grief upon the thousands of slain which lay scattered unburied 
upon the surface of the earth around. He and Coriantumr alone of all that mighty race which had 
flourished for upwards of fifteen hundred years were left. Who can imagine the feelings which he 
must have had on such an occasion. 

     From the summit of this hill, doubtless, Mormon and his great son Moroni had also witnessed 
the gathering of the hosts of the Nephites and the dusky and myriad legions of their deadly
enemies, the Lamanites. Around this hill they had marshaled their forces, their twenty-three 
divisions of ten thousand men each, commanded by the most skillful of their generals-all to be 
swept away, except Mormon and Moroni and twenty-two others, in one day's battle, by the fierce 
and relentless foe whom God permitted to execute his threatened judgment. Stealthily, perhaps, 
for fear of exciting the attention of the Lamanites, Mormon and Moroni and their companions may 
have ascended this hill and gazed on the dreadful scene around them. What a picture of desolation 
and woe must have met their sight! How deep must have been their anguish at thus witnessing the 
destruction of the fair ones of their nation! No wonder they cried out in anguish and mourned with 
pathetic lamentations the rebellion against God which had brought this terrible destruction upon 
them.

     Mormon's feelings must have been very peculiar. At fifteen years of age chosen to be the 
commander-in-chief of the armies of his nation, he had fought battle after battle until now, at 
seventy-four years of age, he witnessed the complete blotting out of what had been the most favored 
people on the earth. His reflections must have been peculiarly painful, because he knew that had 
they listened to him he could have saved them.

     It was here that he hid the abridgment which he made of the records, and which is now known 
by his name, and it was here, thirty-six years after this tremendous battle, that his son Moroni 
also hid his abridgment of the Book of Ether and the record which he had made, from which we learn 
the fate of his father Mormon and his other companions, that sixteen years after the battle of 
Cumorah Mormon and all the Nephites except Moroni had been killed by the Lamanites. It was to this 
spot that, about fourteen hundred years after these events, Joseph Smith, the Prophet, was led by 
Moroni in person, and for translation.

     Who could tread this ground and reflect upon these mighty events and not be filled with 
indescribable emotion? We were literally surrounded by the graves of two of the mightiest nations 
which had ever flourished on the earth. We stood in the center of their burial place. They had 
rebelled against God; they had slain His Prophets, disregarded His warnings, and arrayed themselves
against Him (July 5, 1873, JI 8:108-109).

Gospel Truth, volume 2, chapter 20, President George Q. Cannon (pages 256-259).

[Pyreaux]

9 hours ago, theplains said:

Here's more of what was regarded as LDS gospel "truth".

THE HILL CUMORAH IN NEW YORK. While on a recent visit to the States on business Brother Brigham 
Young, Jun.. and I arranged to make a visit to the hill Cumorah-the hill where Mormon and Moroni 
secreted the records, by the command of the Lord, which were revealed to the Prophet Joseph Smith, 
and from which he translated the Book of Mormon...

     Undoubtedly great changes had occurred in the appearance of the surrounding country since 
the days when Mormon and Moroni had trod the spot where we stood; still, we could readily understand, 
even now, how admirable a position this would be for a general to occupy in watching and directing 
the movements of armies and in scrutinizing the position of an enemy. Around Cumorah is yet a land 
of many waters, rivers and fountains, as Mormon said it was in his day.

     Our emotions on treading on this sacred hill were of the most peculiar character. They were 
indescribable. This was the hill Ramah of the Jaredites, and it is probable that in this vicinity 
Coriantumr and Shiz, with the people whom they led, fought their last battle. For this great battle 
they were four years preparing, gathering the people together from all parts of the land and arming 
men and women, and even children. The battle lasted eight days, and the result was the complete 
extermination of the Jaredite nation, none being left but the Prophet Ether-who warned the nation 
of the fate that awaited it unless the people repented and who lived to record the fulfillment of 
his own warnings and predictions-and Coriantumr who succeeded in slaying his mortal enemy, Shiz.

     It is probable that the Prophet Ether, when he emerged from his hiding-place to view the 
destruction of his race, which he had been inspired to foretell, had ascended this hill and from 
its summit had gazed with profound grief upon the thousands of slain which lay scattered unburied 
upon the surface of the earth around. He and Coriantumr alone of all that mighty race which had 
flourished for upwards of fifteen hundred years were left. Who can imagine the feelings which he 
must have had on such an occasion. 

     From the summit of this hill, doubtless, Mormon and his great son Moroni had also witnessed 
the gathering of the hosts of the Nephites and the dusky and myriad legions of their deadly
enemies, the Lamanites. Around this hill they had marshaled their forces, their twenty-three 
divisions of ten thousand men each, commanded by the most skillful of their generals-all to be 
swept away, except Mormon and Moroni and twenty-two others, in one day's battle, by the fierce 
and relentless foe whom God permitted to execute his threatened judgment. Stealthily, perhaps, 
for fear of exciting the attention of the Lamanites, Mormon and Moroni and their companions may 
have ascended this hill and gazed on the dreadful scene around them. What a picture of desolation 
and woe must have met their sight! How deep must have been their anguish at thus witnessing the 
destruction of the fair ones of their nation! No wonder they cried out in anguish and mourned with 
pathetic lamentations the rebellion against God which had brought this terrible destruction upon 
them.

     Mormon's feelings must have been very peculiar. At fifteen years of age chosen to be the 
commander-in-chief of the armies of his nation, he had fought battle after battle until now, at 
seventy-four years of age, he witnessed the complete blotting out of what had been the most favored 
people on the earth. His reflections must have been peculiarly painful, because he knew that had 
they listened to him he could have saved them.

     It was here that he hid the abridgment which he made of the records, and which is now known 
by his name, and it was here, thirty-six years after this tremendous battle, that his son Moroni 
also hid his abridgment of the Book of Ether and the record which he had made, from which we learn 
the fate of his father Mormon and his other companions, that sixteen years after the battle of 
Cumorah Mormon and all the Nephites except Moroni had been killed by the Lamanites. It was to this 
spot that, about fourteen hundred years after these events, Joseph Smith, the Prophet, was led by 
Moroni in person, and for translation.

     Who could tread this ground and reflect upon these mighty events and not be filled with 
indescribable emotion? We were literally surrounded by the graves of two of the mightiest nations 
which had ever flourished on the earth. We stood in the center of their burial place. They had 
rebelled against God; they had slain His Prophets, disregarded His warnings, and arrayed themselves
against Him (July 5, 1873, JI 8:108-109).

Gospel Truth, volume 2, chapter 20, President George Q. Cannon (pages 256-259).

Beside the fact they were not delivering any binding revelation on geography, the Book of Mormon narrative itself disproves it.

Mormon "hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records... save it were these few plates which I gave unto my son Moroni." (Mormon 6:6)  

Moroni then wandered for over 35 years after the battle at Cumorah before finally burying his plates in the ground, far away from Cumorah (Mormon 8:1–4, Moroni 10).

[Tacenda]

This is a great photo of Al Fox Carraway. Times sure are changing, back in the day you wouldn't see very many cross necklaces nor sleeveless clothing on Temple Recommend holders.  

 

 

[smac97]

17 hours ago, Tacenda said:

This is a great photo of Al Fox Carraway. Times sure are changing, back in the day you wouldn't see very many cross necklaces nor sleeveless clothing on Temple Recommend holders.  

What are your thoughts about these changes?

Thanks,

-Smac

[smac97]

On 7/27/2026 at 9:17 AM, theplains said:

Here's more of what was regarded as LDS gospel "truth".

This thread having started a week ago, and Pyreaux having responded that same day, I am wondering if you are intending to participate in the threads you start.  Any input?

Thanks,

_Smac

[The Nehor]

On 8/2/2026 at 10:05 PM, Tacenda said:

This is a great photo of Al Fox Carraway. Times sure are changing, back in the day you wouldn't see very many cross necklaces nor sleeveless clothing on Temple Recommend holders.  

 

 

And a tattoo?

Are we allowed to post such depraved images here?

[AnchoredinChrist]

On 7/27/2026 at 8:55 PM, Pyreaux said:

Beside the fact they were not delivering any binding revelation on geography, the Book of Mormon narrative itself disproves it.

Mormon "hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records... save it were these few plates which I gave unto my son Moroni." (Mormon 6:6)  

Moroni then wandered for over 35 years after the battle at Cumorah before finally burying his plates in the ground, far away from Cumorah (Mormon 8:1–4, Moroni 10).

I'm not following what this means, it was my understanding that Mormon hid the records except for some plates that still had some space left on them, giving them to Moroni. Moroni wrote of Mormon's death and the end of the Nephite civilization on them and then immediately put them with the rest of the plates: Mormon 8:4 "Therefore I will write and hide up the records in the earth; and whither I go it mattereth not."

So he wrote of the end of civilization, put his few plates with the others, and then he wandered for over 35 years. After 35 years of that he wandered back to the Hill Cumorah and dug up the records again, because he had the time and there had been some space left and he thought of a few things to add, so why not.

I didn't interpret it that he actually carried the plates around during his years wandering, they would be too heavy, they wouldn't be safe because he didn't know when or where he would end up dying, and at the time he didn't even think he'd end up writing more. (Moroni 1) It makes sense to me that he buried them, wandered around on his own, returned and dug them back up and after writing more then reburied them, and died an indeterminate length of time after that that. I think that all of the records were buried in the exact same spot, at the Hill Cumorah.

 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, AnchoredinChrist said:

then immediately put them with the rest of the plates…. I think that all of the records were buried in the exact same spot, at the Hill Cumorah.

If you look at what you quoted, it does not say he buried them with the rest of the plates.  Joseph certainly didn’t find other plates with the BoM plates.

Given the Lamanites were hunting for any survivors to kill them, why would he stay in the same area?

The plates were said to be about 40-60 lbs.  That’s not too heavy for someone used to combat and long treks.  US soldiers carry 72 lbs when marching apparently and my guess is Moroni was fitter, having most likely lived a much more physical life than many Americans do in childhood.

https://sk.sagepub.com/ency/edvol/encyclopedia-of-military-science/chpt/combat-load#_

Edited Tuesday at 10:55 PM by Calm

[Pyreaux]

So, your theory requires Moroni to bury the plates, wander for decades, return to Cumorah, dig them back up, add to them, and re-bury them there because they were too heavy? No. The Gold Plates were roughly 40 to 60 pounds. For a solitary survivor accustomed to outdoor survival and travel, carrying a 50-pound pack is entirely plausible.

Cumorah was ground zero of the Nephite genocide. It was literally the location where the victorious Lamanite armies were stationed. For Moroni to stay near Cumorah or return to it repeatedly over 35 years would mean rather than keeping it safe, he dawdled in the single most dangerous, heavily scoured region in the continent for a sole surviving Nephite.

Scholars argue that Moroni fled the battlefield of Cumorah in Mesoamerica carrying the 50-pound Gold Plates. Over his 37 years of wandering alone, he traveled north toward North America, continuing to write the Book of Ether and the Book of Moroni as he went, eventually burying the single set of Gold Plates in the drumlin in Palmyra, New York. There is not much parallel evidence in New York, Heartlander.

[Calm]

glitch 

Edited Tuesday at 10:54 PM by Calm

[Calm]

Timing…Moroni buried them around 421 AD, he got them around 385 AD, the year the Nephites civilization was destroyed and all but a few wiped out. (Remnants were being hunted)

(this was actually not needed, but somehow my brain randomly jumped where you covered timing in your post and I did not do my usual rereading of a post before posting as the skipping over parts is not unusual.
 

Mormon 6

Quote

And when three hundred and eighty and four years had passed away, we had gathered in all the remainder of our people unto the land of Cumorah.
 

And it came to pass that when we had gathered in all our people in one to the land of Cumorah, behold I, Mormon, began to be old; and knowing it to be the last struggle of my people, and having been commanded of the Lord that I should not suffer the records which had been handed down by our fathers, which were sacred, to fall into the hands of the Lamanites, (for the Lamanites would destroy them) therefore I made this record out of the plates of Nephi, and hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord, save it were these few plates which I gave unto my son Moroni. (Mormon 6:6)

Moroni 10:

Quote

Now I, Moroni, write somewhat as seemeth me good; and I write unto my brethren, the Lamanites; and I would that they should know that more than four hundred and twentyyears have passed away since the sign was given of the coming of Christ.

 

Edited Tuesday at 10:53 PM by Calm

[AnchoredinChrist]

1 hour ago, Pyreaux said:

So, your theory requires Moroni to bury the plates, wander for decades, return to Cumorah, dig them back up, add to them, and re-bury them there because they were too heavy? No. The Gold Plates were roughly 40 to 60 pounds. For a solitary survivor accustomed to outdoor survival and travel, carrying a 50-pound pack is entirely plausible.

Cumorah was ground zero of the Nephite genocide. It was literally the location where the victorious Lamanite armies were stationed. For Moroni to stay near Cumorah or return to it repeatedly over 35 years would mean rather than keeping it safe, he dawdled in the single most dangerous, heavily scoured region in the continent for a sole surviving Nephite.

Scholars argue that Moroni fled the battlefield of Cumorah in Mesoamerica carrying the 50-pound Gold Plates. Over his 37 years of wandering alone, he traveled north toward North America, continuing to write the Book of Ether and the Book of Moroni as he went, eventually burying the single set of Gold Plates in the drumlin in Palmyra, New York. There is not much parallel evidence in New York, Heartlander.

If you were referring to the two-hill theory then I understand now, though I myself ascribe to there being one Cumorah. I think it to be plausible that since the final battle was in the land of Cumorah, that it was a "land of bones" as soon as the carnage of hundreds of thousands of people ended, which would mean that it would definitely not be a place that the Lamanites would want to settle after the war. I don't see why the victorious Lamanites would remain stationed there after the battle had ended, since all the wars were then over -- but it would yet remain a good place to have things buried.

I think the fact that Moroni transcribed so much from other plates indicates that he had access to all those plates while he was transcribing them onto the gold plates, but I understand that others have other explanations for that.