1 Nephi 5:11–13 - Laban's plates

[telnetd]

In 1 Nephi 5:11–13, Nephi explains that the brass plates of Laban contained the five 
books of Moses,  a record of the Jews, and the prophecies of the prophets from the 
beginning, down to the commencement of Zedekiah's reign.

Were they written in reformed-Egyptian script so they could preserve their language
when they left Jerusalem (1 Nephi 3:19)?

[webbles]

It doesn't mention what language it is.  But doubtful it is reformed Egyptian as that is first mentioned by Moroni which is over 1000 years.  And he says (in the next verse) that he also knows how to write Hebrew (or reformed Hebrew, technically).

1 Nephi 1:2 says that Nephi makes a record "in the language of my father, which consists of the learning of the Jews and the language of the Egyptians."  So it is possible that the Brass Plates were in Egyptian of some sort, but it wouldn't be the reformed Egyptian that Moroni is talking about.

[Kevin Christensen]

It is important that that the word "language" in the Book of Mormon does not always refer to dialect, but also can refer to the topics and ideas.  (I noticed that the index of one of my editions of the Book of Mormon only contains references to dialect passages Hebrew or Egyptian or Reformed Egyptian, not any of the topicality passages). The roots of the word literally refers to what is "on the tongue."   Sorenson's proposal that Sherem was an outsider because he as described as "having a perfect knowledge of the language of the people" (Jacob 7:4) was partly based on assuming the phrase meant that Sherem had to have been instructed in the language as dialect, rather than mastery of what people in the community were saying to each other, and how he could push their emotional buttons with flattery.

Just when and by whom the records were assembled on the Brass plates is another issue.  Were they a continuous accruing record on plates, or passed along scrolls transferred to plates as some point?  Noel Reynolds recently produced "A Backstory for the Brass Plates" at Interpreter.

https://interpreterfoundation.org/journal/a-backstory-for-the-brass-plates 

Personally, I think the Brass Plates were a project commissioned by a Pharaoh, just as the later Septuagint was commissioned by a Pharaoh, for the same reasons, prestige for a library and a tool for preparing diplomats and civil servants, during Jehoiakim's reign, when he was an Egyptian puppet.  In my mind, that accounts for them being in a treasury, for it containing prophecies of Jeremiah up to their present, and for Lehi being aware of them.  With the defeat of the Egyptians, and Zedekiah being installed by Babylonians, the plates were be without a home. Notice how frequently prophets and priests use metallurgical metaphors (comparing the wicked to dross, and trials as "refining fire" etc.), and the importance of metal items in the temple, such as the seven-branched lamp (the menorah), and the 600 BCE silver scrolls with a blessing from Numbers 6.  John Tvedtnes wrote a persuasive essay that Lehi was a metal worker.   And Reynolds has also written about Lehi and Nephi as trained scribes.

https://interpreterfoundation.org/journal/lehi-and-nephi-as-trained-manassite-scribes

FWIW,

Kevin Christensen

Tooele, UT

[longview]

3 hours ago, Kevin Christensen said:

Personally, I think the Brass Plates were a project commissioned by a Pharaoh . . .

Would it be more likely that Joseph of Egypt (son of Jacob/Israel) had the time, wealth, and prestige to consolidate all extant Hebrew records from Noah, Shem, Melchizedek, Abraham, Isaac, and Israel. Did he already have his new version of "innovative" reformed Egyptian script that easily corresponded with the Hebrew. His sons, Ephraim and Manasseh, could have maintained this record and passed them on to their descendants.

When the Hebrews started being subjugated into slavery, they could have hidden the records in the sarcophagus of Joseph (the bones of Joseph). Which was eventually moved into the northern parts of Canaan (the inheritances of the Tribes of Ephraim and/or Manasseh). The progenitors of Lehi and Laban may have eventually migrated south to the land of Jerusalem. Thus safely preserving the records from the destruction of the Northern Kingdom (Lost Ten Tribes).

[The Nehor]

I am curious as to why the prophecies of Jeremiah would be in it. They were pretty pro-surrender to Babylon. Why would Pharoah want those around?

16 hours ago, longview said:

Would it be more likely that Joseph of Egypt (son of Jacob/Israel) had the time, wealth, and prestige to consolidate all extant Hebrew records from Noah, Shem, Melchizedek, Abraham, Isaac, and Israel. Did he already have his new version of "innovative" reformed Egyptian script that easily corresponded with the Hebrew. His sons, Ephraim and Manasseh, could have maintained this record and passed them on to their descendants.

When the Hebrews started being subjugated into slavery, they could have hidden the records in the sarcophagus of Joseph (the bones of Joseph). Which was eventually moved into the northern parts of Canaan (the inheritances of the Tribes of Ephraim and/or Manasseh). The progenitors of Lehi and Laban may have eventually migrated south to the land of Jerusalem. Thus safely preserving the records from the destruction of the Northern Kingdom (Lost Ten Tribes).

All kinds of dating problems with that and why it would contain more modern things like Jeremiah. I would also argue that something that old and prestigious wouldn’t be something that Lehi’s wealth could realistically be traded for.

[longview]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

I am curious as to why the prophecies of Jeremiah would be in it. They were pretty pro-surrender to Babylon. Why would Pharoah want those around?
All kinds of dating problems with that and why it would contain more modern things like Jeremiah. I would also argue that something that old and prestigious wouldn’t be something that Lehi’s wealth could realistically be traded for.

As I indicated, the "records" possibly migrated with Joseph's sarcophagus to northern Israel then to Jerusalem. Along the way, it acquired the "five books of Moses" plus had references to relatively unknown prophets such as Zenos and Zenock who probably lived in the north. Jeremiah was a contemporary of Lehi and Laban.

Laban must have considered Jeremiah to be a major prophet so he could easily have the words added to the Brass Plates with metal sheets inserted. BEFORE Nephi and his brothers showed up to mightily disturb Laban. The genealogy mentioned by Lehi might have focused on descendants of Manasseh which continued to be updated all the way to to the time of Laban.

Hel 8:19 And now I would that ye should know, that even since the days of Abraham there have been many prophets that have testified these things; yea, behold, the prophet Zenos did testify boldly; for the which he was slain.

Hel 15:11 Yea, even if they should dwindle in unbelief the Lord shall prolong their days, until the time shall come which hath been spoken of by our fathers, and also by the prophet Zenos, and many other prophets, concerning the restoration of our brethren, the Lamanites, again to the knowledge of the truth—

[Senator]

55 minutes ago, longview said:

BEFORE Nephi and his brothers showed up to mightily disturb Laban.

You mean kill....
Is that the lingo the kids are using these days? 😂

[longview]

1 hour ago, Senator said:

You mean kill....
Is that the lingo the kids are using these days? 😂

ha ha. Because Laban set himself up to exercise unrighteous dominion over them, he became subject to God's condemnation. Pay close attention to the timeline, how there was a progression of more severe consequences. 

[The Nehor]

11 hours ago, longview said:

As I indicated, the "records" possibly migrated with Joseph's sarcophagus to northern Israel then to Jerusalem. Along the way, it acquired the "five books of Moses" plus had references to relatively unknown prophets such as Zenos and Zenock who probably lived in the north. Jeremiah was a contemporary of Lehi and Laban.

Laban must have considered Jeremiah to be a major prophet so he could easily have the words added to the Brass Plates with metal sheets inserted. BEFORE Nephi and his brothers showed up to mightily disturb Laban. The genealogy mentioned by Lehi might have focused on descendants of Manasseh which continued to be updated all the way to to the time of Laban.

Hel 8:19 And now I would that ye should know, that even since the days of Abraham there have been many prophets that have testified these things; yea, behold, the prophet Zenos did testify boldly; for the which he was slain.

Hel 15:11 Yea, even if they should dwindle in unbelief the Lord shall prolong their days, until the time shall come which hath been spoken of by our fathers, and also by the prophet Zenos, and many other prophets, concerning the restoration of our brethren, the Lamanites, again to the knowledge of the truth—

That would mean it really wouldn’t be much like the original artifact. Adding the entire Torah and the prophets would mean the original had a lot of spare room or it had to be massively expanded. Probably easier to copy it onto a new object or rebuild it.

Jeremiah had just been cast into prison for his treasonous talk about capitulating to Babylon. So was it Pharoah or Laban that added them in this theory.

The whole theory is very fiddly and seems to try to fit the record into a bunch of biblical events with no evidence. This is how you would do it if you were making it into a novel or a movie but is very unlikely.

[longview]

9 hours ago, The Nehor said:

That would mean it really wouldn’t be much like the original artifact. Adding the entire Torah and the prophets would mean the original had a lot of spare room or it had to be massively expanded. Probably easier to copy it onto a new object or rebuild it.

It is NOT my contention that the Brass Plates originated with Joseph of Egypt. When I said "records" I was actually thinking of multiple scrolls from various sources. Including Jacob and Joseph. I have no idea of when any of the possessors started transcribing or even abridging the "records" onto brass plates. Did Joseph do it? Or even Laban? He was also powerful and wealthy. My guess would be immediate descendants of Ephraim and/or Manasseh. Or sometime after a "new pharoah" supplanted the previous regime.

Edited April 18 by longview

[telnetd]

On 4/16/2026 at 1:43 PM, webbles said:

1 Nephi 1:2 says that Nephi makes a record "in the language of my father, which consists of the learning of the Jews and the language of the Egyptians."  So it is possible that the Brass Plates were in Egyptian of some sort, but it wouldn't be the reformed Egyptian that Moroni is talking about.

Is there any credible linguistic or archaeological evidence that Egyptian or "reformed 
Egyptian" was present in Native American Indian languages?

[webbles]

1 hour ago, telnetd said:

Is there any credible linguistic or archaeological evidence that Egyptian or "reformed 
Egyptian" was present in Native American Indian languages?

We don't really know what 'reformed Egyptian' is.  It might not have anything to do with Egyptian as Moroni wrote about it 1000 years after Nephi's voyage so anything about Egyptian would be filtered down through 1000 years of telephone.  The best evidence we have for what it might look like is the 3 documents that supposedly contain writing copied from the plates - https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/appendix-2-copies-of-book-of-mormon-characters-introduction/1.  But we don't know how accurate those copies are.

And then you also have to realize that it appears that this writing ("reformed Egyptian") was a rarely used writing and probably a scribal tradition.  In the verses around the mention of 'reformed Egyptian' Moroni talks about wanting to use another language but can't because of limitations.

This writing would have probably gone out of use after Moroni so we are looking for writings before 400AD and there aren't a lot of that in the entire Americas.  So far, we have discovered 5 different writing systems from that era with another possible 2 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesoamerican_writing_systems#Pre-Classic_and_Classic_periods).