Elder Gilbert, new Q12 member

[smac97]

13 minutes ago, Anonymous Mormon said:

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Were you expecting CES employees to publicly criticize him and get fired?

Yes, if there were an abuse of power or a policy that was so awful that it would make Elder Gilbert a poor candidate to be an apostle, then I would expect some coconscious objectors.

So would I.  I suspect we'll hear some such objectors in General Conference (the guys who shout their opposing vote, in contravention of the instructions from the Brethren).

13 minutes ago, Anonymous Mormon said:

Or if it were a major purge, I too would expect someone who was fired unfairly to raise objections after the fact.

Yep.  There's been plenty of time to do so, but I haven't heard anything other than vague stuff.

A friend of mine once raised her hand to oppose the sustaining of a man in her ward.  The bishop spoke with her afterward, and she conveyed what she knew about the man.  This isn't common, and perhaps it should be more so, but it does happen (and when it does, it should be handled with decorum, not shouted like what we've been seeing in general conference).

13 minutes ago, Anonymous Mormon said:

But if it's just a few people who are hurt that the church isn't endorsing their political views or changing to meet their agenda, then I would expect them to make anonymous online statements and anonymous statements to Peggy at the Tribune

Yes, this is the vibe I am getting.  An article in the Tribune would be a great way to rake some much against Elder Gilbert.  All we're seeing is pouting from people whose sociopolitical viewpoints vary from Elder Gilbert's as to a few topics.  That doesn't hold much sway with me.

13 minutes ago, Anonymous Mormon said:

(and of course there are lots of exmo trolls that make up fake comments on forums - some comments could be trolls posing as BYU professors just to stir the pot - there is plenty of exmo trolling around all church topics, even here on this board)

Yep.  Online comments as to such matters need to be taken with a handful of salt, not just a pinch.

Thanks,

-Smac

[smac97]

55 minutes ago, Calm said:

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He has members of the Church publicly disparaging him. 

And more progressive church leaders don’t?  We even had significant numbers imo of members condemning Pres. Nelson as being apostate when he shut down in person services and promoted vaccination and that was hardly progressive.

Yes, evil-speaking of the Lord's anointed is not the exclusive province of one side of the sociopolitical spectrum.

55 minutes ago, Calm said:

You are damned if you do and damned if you don’t in today’s world (and probably were at any time in history, we just have much more publication of the damning now with the internet).

Yes.  Hence the need to set aside ideological differences and sustain Elder Gilbert as an Apostle and Special Witness of Jesus Christ.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Calm]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

But he sure seems to be willing to "do the difficult."  He massively downsized Deseret News' staffing and materially modified its approach to news coverage. 

But being a hard worker and doing difficult things while admirable isn’t the same thing as being brave or going against the grain when it’s what the people who pay your paycheck and the majority of people around you want you to do, even if it upsets the people you fire/force out, especially if the other alternative is a lower paycheck or even getting fired, contract not renewed for yourself.

Not saying that means he wasn’t doing good things either.  I just think it exaggerates that one idea, bravery, though I do view it as brave these days to step into any role that brings you into the public eye because you will get harassed more than the typical harassment that happens to everyone online imo (I got a semideath threat and quite a few “you are going to hell”, “Devil’s spawn” from a few atypical members just because I wouldn’t let them use excessive caps or other things that made it difficult for others to read as well as getting too personal when I was a mod in ZLMB, it’s ridiculous what people think they have a right and duty to say to others).

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And even then, he only did so in the context of BYU working within it.

Then that hardly seems like going against the grain rather than just digging deeper the ruts in the path that are already there (not using ruts negatively here, just to emphasize it was a familiar path).

Edited February 13 by Calm

[Calm]

57 minutes ago, Duncan said:

oh, he is and was a temple worker and so he has his recommend but couldn't get his endorsement from his Bishop because of something he said to the guy sometime earlier that the Bishop took the wrong way and now he couldn't get hired. He protested, and had an interview with someone but because his bishop wouldn't sign off he wasn't hired and so he was like  F BYU and moved to Europe and works there now. His MP was a GA and I think? he got him the interview to see if they could by pass the bishop but alas nothing came from it

I have heard of that happening before (sometimes it seems the bishop is overreacting, other times I want to hear the bishop’s version as I pick up hints of something more going on).  I wish there was a way to take into account bishops’ biases, but don’t see how if you do anything more detailed than a temple recommend.

Edited February 13 by Calm

[Calm]

58 minutes ago, Anonymous Mormon said:

Couldn't the story you just told also have happened before Elder Gilbert's time?

The ones I have heard all were.

[Calm]

51 minutes ago, Duncan said:

he HATES BYU

I can see him disliking, even hating some aspects of BYU (I did when I was there), but hating BYU (do you mean the collection of BYUs or BYU Provo or BYUI?) seems a big stretch for someone working at CES.  It seems unlikely he could function in his job effectively or that top church leaders would have been okay with having someone who hated BYU at its helm.

48 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Were you expecting CES employees to publicly criticize him and get fired?

 

[Calm]

52 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Were you expecting CES employees to publicly criticize him and get fired?

What about afterwards though, those that had been fired?  Also surveys could be done anonymously.  And actual quotes from what he said about DEI, etc. would be helpful.

[Calm]

46 minutes ago, Anonymous Mormon said:

But if it's just a few people who are hurt that the church isn't endorsing their political views or changing to meet their agenda, then I would expect them to make anonymous online statements and anonymous statements to Peggy at the Tribune
(and of course there are lots of exmo trolls that make up fake comments on forums - some comments could be trolls posing as BYU professors just to stir the pot - there is plenty of exmo trolling around all church topics, even here on this board)

Given there are many members who have extended family very active in the Church who might react in negative ways, even extremely, I can see how the majority still prefer to be anonymous (I have a few myself I keep my mouth shut around and hope they never come across my comments online because I am pretty sure they would misunderstand and take things the wrong way as well as argue with me about things they understood correctly because they are buying into a lot of conspiracy nonsense).  Plus speaking negatively about a former employer may cause a potential employer to think twice about hiring someone even if they agree with the candidate in that particular case (if the candidate is willing to trash their former employer because of something they see as wrong, it’s more likely they will be willing to do the same in the future).

[smac97]

1 hour ago, Duncan said:

oh, he is and was a temple worker and so he has his recommend but couldn't get his endorsement from his Bishop because of something he said to the guy sometime earlier that the Bishop took the wrong way and now he couldn't get hired. He protested, and had an interview with someone but because his bishop wouldn't sign off he wasn't hired and so he was like  F BYU and moved to Europe and works there now. His MP was a GA and I think? he got him the interview to see if they could by pass the bishop but alas nothing came from it

Sounds like it was the bishop who erred (assuming the story is accurate).

Thanks,

-Smac

[smac97]

All sorts of gossip, hearsay and innuendo in this thread.  Nothing specific or documented or verifiable.

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Backbiting

• See also Gossip; Malice; Mocking; Slander

• backbiteth not with his tongue, Ps. 15:3.
• Whoso privily slandereth his neighbour, him will I cut off, Ps. 101:5.
• driveth away rain: so doth an angry countenance a backbiting tongue, Prov. 25:23.

• when men shall … say … evil, Matt. 5:11.
• Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, Rom. 1:30.
• lest there be debates, envyings, … backbitings, 2 Cor. 12:20.
• Let all … evil speaking, be put away, Eph. 4:31.
• Grudge not one against another, James 5:9.
• laying aside … all evil speakings, 1 Pet. 2:1.

• doth make a mock of his brother, Alma 5:30.
• people did revile against the prophets, Ether 7:24.

• see that there is no … backbiting, nor evil speaking, D&C 20:54.
• Thou shalt not speak evil of thy neighbor, D&C 42:27.
• cease to find fault one with another, D&C 88:124.
• cease to speak evil one of another, D&C 136:23.

We as Latter-day Saints are supposed to avoid this stuff.

From Pres. Eyring:

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You may have been asked, or you will be, whether you sustain your bishop, stake president, the General Authorities, and the General Officers of the Church. It may happen as you are asked to sustain officers and leaders in a conference. Sometimes it will be in an interview with a bishop or stake president.

My counsel is that you ask those questions of yourself beforehand, with careful and prayerful thought. As you do, you might look back on your recent thoughts, words, and deeds. Try to remember and frame the answers you will give when the Lord interviews you, knowing that someday He will. You could prepare by asking yourself questions like the following:

1. Have I thought or spoken of human weakness in the people I have pledged to sustain?
2. Have I looked for evidence that the Lord is leading them?
3. Have I conscientiously and loyally followed their leadership?
4. Have I spoken about the evidence I can see that they are God’s servants?
5. Do I pray for them regularly by name and with feelings of love?

Those questions will, for most of us, lead to some uneasiness and a need to repent. We are commanded by God not to judge others unrighteously, but in practice, we find that hard to avoid. Almost everything we do in working with people leads us to evaluate them. And in almost every aspect of our lives, we compare ourselves with others. We may do so for many reasons, some of them reasonable, but it often leads us to be critical.

President George Q. Cannon gave a warning that I pass on to you as my own. I believe he spoke the truth: “God has chosen His servants. He claims it as His prerogative to condemn them, if they need condemnation. He has not given it to us individually to censure and condemn them. No man, however strong he may be in the faith, however high in the Priesthood, can speak evil of the Lord’s anointed and find fault with God’s authority on the earth without incurring His displeasure. The Holy Spirit will withdraw himself from such a man, and he will go into darkness. This being the case, do you not see how important it is that we should be careful?”

1. Have I thought or spoken of human weakness in the people I have pledged to sustain?
2. Have I looked for evidence that the Lord is leading them?
3. Have I conscientiously and loyally followed their leadership?
4. Have I spoken about the evidence I can see that they are God’s servants?
5. Do I pray for them regularly by name and with feelings of love?

These are questions each of us should ask of ourselves relative to how we are speaking of Elder Gilbert.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited February 16 by smac97

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

What about afterwards though, those that had been fired?  Also surveys could be done anonymously.  And actual quotes from what he said about DEI, etc. would be helpful.

On racial inclusion:

“Absolutely, but mimicking … the world is not the way to do it. The DEI (diversity, equity and inclusion) programs in the world are not the way BYU should do it. We should find a gospel-centered approach. We should be better than we are now, and we should be a light to the world but not replicating the world.”

 

If there is one thing the LDS Church is known for it is being ahead of the curve on promoting racial equality…………nope, I could not keep a straight face.

More seriously I am not sure how the gospel is supposed to facilitate this.

BYU is not exactly at the forefront of any such efforts. https://www.cnn.com/2022/08/27/us/brigham-young-university-athletics-apology-racial-slurs-duke

[Calm]

15 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

The DEI (diversity, equity and inclusion) programs in the world are not the way BYU should do it.

While I agree BYU should have a different primary focus, gospel centered, this does sound like there is nothing useful to be learned or adopted from any of  these programs, so problematic.  I do see the possibility he was trying too hard to be brief though and lost needed nuance.

 

15 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

BYU is not exactly at the forefront of any such efforts

And what he says below doesn’t contradict your comment.

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We should be better than we are now, and we should be a light to the world but not replicating the world.”

“Should” is not “is”

However, the example you used…I am pretty sure it was demonstrated the slur did not occur (videos were watched).  Not that it doesn’t actually happen at times, I would be shocked if it doesn’t.  It does sound like this behaviour was expected and therefore misheard in this case and then likely embellished in the first online post about it.

https://www.npr.org/2022/09/14/1122977386/byu-apologizes-to-a-banned-fan-saying-it-found-no-proof-they-yelled-racial-slurs

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Announcing the findings of its inquiry, BYU Athletics said last week that it went to great lengths to find moments in which the fan in question or anyone else might have yelled slurs during the match. The effort included a review of numerous records, it said, including match video from the school's broadcast outlet with the commentators' audio track removed, and video footage from security cameras.

"We also reached out to more than 50 individuals who attended the event," from fans and BYU personnel to Duke's players and team staff, the department said.

 

Edited February 14 by Calm

[The Nehor]

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

While I agree BYU should have a different primary focus, gospel centered, this does sound like there is nothing useful to be learned or adopted from any of  these programs, so problematic.  I do see the possibility he was trying too hard to be brief though and lost needed nuance.

Yeah, but it is weird to be obsessed with not being worldly so selectively. There isn’t some kind of LDS DEI replacement plan. DEI programs aren’t perfect but this seems to be a case of saying that there has to be a better way and then not actually finding and implementing a better way. It is an acceptance of the status quo that tries to sound like it wants to be more inclusive.

[Calm]

Just an fyi

https://www.thechurchnews.com/living-faith/2022/8/17/23308942/elder-gilbert-byu-education-week-church-educational-system-courage-to-be-different/

[Calm]

From the above:

Quote

“We ask our universities to be different from the world and from each other,” Elder Gilbert explained, or to stand alone despite pressures to “face the wrong way in the elevator.”

Later, when he give the DEI quote, there is a link to a positive article about BYU’s version, so I am thinking it was lacking nuance rather than condemning anything resembling other universities’ programs.

https://www.thechurchnews.com/2020/7/22/23265056/byu-committee-race-equity-belonging-connecting-community/

“Rooting out racism, healing its wounds and building bridges of understanding is the responsibility of every member of the BYU community.  

“That effort begins with understanding and living the two greatest commandments given to us by the Master Healer, Jesus Christ: to love God with all our hearts and to love our neighbors as ourselves (see Matthew 22:35–39).””

However, the current version says nothing about race or equity unfortunately in my view, pretty generic feel good version, which could describe almost any community that pushes having a positive outlook about fellow members, even if they happened to exclude others for the wrong reasons.  And that concerns me.  It is not a brave, not of this world, but God’s kingdom and proud of it statement, imo.  Would love to change my mind, someone point out I missed something.

My reasoning….celebrating the differences among accepted students in the university does not mean they celebrate differences among those outside the community.  Thankfully this isn’t so, but the mission statement would still be applicable if they only accepted students of white European heritage.

https://belonging.byu.edu/statement-on-belonging

Though maybe that isn’t the current version, but rather the result of the Committee’s work. Odd that race isn’t mentioned though if so.

https://news.byu.edu/announcements/byu-forms-new-office-of-belonging

They do have a multicultural aspect, it just isn’t that prominent imo, which I would have expected it to be given the department is apparently the result of the committee that was focusing strongly on race and equity.

https://belonging.byu.edu/racial-minority-resources

Edited February 14 by Calm

[Calm]

The report the committee suggested a standing committee on race, equity, etc. I am getting overloaded, so need to focus on something else for awhile. Does anyone know if they created a standing committee or not?

Edited February 14 by Calm

[Notatbm]

Too bad no members of the church in Africa are righteous enough to become an apostle. Congrats to this guy, but with all the massive growth of the church in Africa I’d think the 1st Pres would be able to find one black guy who is good enough to be an apostle. Guess not. 

[Calm]

12 hours ago, Notatbm said:

Too bad no members of the church in Africa are righteous enough to become an apostle.

Not logical.  Just because one man was chosen doesn’t mean that other men weren’t eligible.  I would assume it is not a competition for righteousness, all must meet a certain high, probably very high standard, but after that it is likely qualities in speaking, administration, etc. that matter.

So there may be thousands or hundreds of thousands in the Church, including many in Africa meeting or exceeding the righteousness standard that all potential apostles must meet.

The most righteous man in the Church may never have given a talk on Sunday or any other time because he has a phobia about public speaking.  Or maybe he’s caring for a disabled wife and daughter.  Or maybe he has to work three jobs and barely knows how to read.  Or maybe he’s got terminal cancer.  Or one of a thousand other reasons or combinations thereof that very righteous men have who haven’t served in high visibility callings.

My guess is there is a massive amount of men who would like to be apostles who don’t qualify for it by any standard and of the massive amount of men in the Church that do qualify, my guess is a good percentage or perhaps even the majority of those who actually qualify have no desire to be one.  Who wants to wear a business suit with a tie all the time? Can they at least travel in casual? Can you imagine seeing an apostle on a plane in a tshirt and jeans? Or having to work until you drop dead or just want to be because of being too ill or worn out?

Edited February 14 by Calm

[Notatbm]

8 minutes ago, Calm said:

Not logical.  Just because one man was chosen doesn’t mean that other men weren’t eligible.  I would assume it is not a competition for righteousness, all must meet a certain high, probably very high standard, but after that it is likely qualities in speaking, administration, etc. that matter.

So there may be thousands or hundreds of thousands in the Church, including many in Africa meeting or exceeding the righteousness standard that all potential apostles must meet.

I would agree with you on there being plenty of qualified souls out there. You may be right in that there is no one who is well spoken enough to represent the Lord or business savvy enough, or well from Utah, Arizona or Idaho lol. Anyway

The problem is the picks tend to be confined to their friends for the most part.  There is no excuse at this point to not have at least a couple apostles who look like some of at least the larger minority demographics. Of course the Lord did award dark skin to the less valiant and they would turn white once they became righteous. At least all the current apostles were taught that so go figure. 

Edited February 14 by Notatbm

[Calm]

33 minutes ago, Notatbm said:

There is no excuse at this point to not have at least a couple apostles who look like some of at least the larger minority demographics.

Huh?  So Asian and mixed race Brazilian don’t “look like some of the larger minority demographics”?

https://www.sltrib.com/religion/local/2018/06/29/mormon-churchs-newest/

[bluebell]

6 hours ago, Calm said:

I go for a variety are needed because the needs of humanity are very varied.

Agreed.  I don't think there is an ideal apostle, other than humble and willing to sincerely seek God's will.  We need a variety of personalities, skills, and focuses because we are so varied and so are the problems that need to be solved.  We live in a world currently where there is only one way to be right (and what that one way is depends on who you ask).  I think we've lost sight of the beauty and necessity of variety.  

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Notatbm said:

Too bad no members of the church in Africa are righteous enough to become an apostle. Congrats to this guy, but with all the massive growth of the church in Africa I’d think the 1st Pres would be able to find one black guy who is good enough to be an apostle. Guess not. 

Congrats?  More like condolences.  He gets to work until he dies now.

[Notatbm]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Huh?  So Asian and mixed race Brazilian don’t “look like some of the larger minority demographics”?

https://www.sltrib.com/religion/local/2018/06/29/mormon-churchs-newest/

soares looks just like uchdorf lol. A German. 

Asians are approx 1% of lds church. African descent is about 5%. Brazilians represent about 8% of the church. One could say Soares is Hispanic I guess so perhaps he can also represent all Hispanics if they will have him. He is white as heck though. 
 

Anyway, asians are over represented  and blacks are not represented at all. Not surprising since Mormons discriminated against black families until recently. Kinda goes along with the demographic of the Q15. They are not ready for a black guy in there yet despite likely many very qualified people available. 

[Notatbm]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

Congrats?  More like condolences.  He gets to work until he dies now.

Are you kidding? Those guys all live for being stuck in endless church meetings and missing out on most of their families lives. That’s how they get picked…we found our yes man. Being totally church broke. 

Edited February 14 by Notatbm

[Calm]

 

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

Congrats?  More like condolences.  He gets to work until he dies now.

and casual Friday wear is likely loosening the tie.