Tabernacles, temples, and the anointing on Joseph Smith's lineage

[CV75]

4 hours ago, telnetd said:

I'm trying to understand.  Back on November 1, you said
 

Would you explain the bolded part; how the earth was blessed through Joseph's seed?:

"And as I said unto Abraham concerning the kindreds of the earth, even so I say unto 
my servant Joseph: In thee and in thy seed shall the kindred of the earth be blessed".

From Abraham 2, a very comprehensive record the Abrahamic Covenant teaches that the Priesthood is metaphorically the seed. The restoration of the priesthood through Joseph Smith is key to fulfilling the promise that the kindred of the earth are blessed, on both sides of the veil.

8 My name is Jehovah, and I know the end from the beginning; therefore my hand shall be over thee.

9 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee above measure, and make thy name great among all nations, and thou shalt be a blessing unto thy seed after thee, that in their hands they shall bear this ministry and Priesthood unto all nations;

10 And I will bless them through thy name; for as many as receive this Gospel shall be called after thy name, and shall be accounted thy seed, and shall rise up and bless thee, as their father;

11 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse them that curse thee; and in thee (that is, in thy Priesthood) and in thy seed (that is, thy Priesthood), for I give unto thee a promise that this right shall continue in thee, and in thy seed after thee (that is to say, the literal seed, or the seed of the body) shall all the families of the earth be blessed, even with the blessings of the Gospel, which are the blessings of salvation, even of life eternal.

Joseph Smith is among Abraham's literal seed and his role is clear in fulfilling the promise to Abraham of blessing all the families of the earth. That is why D&C 124 refers to the Abrahamic Covenant in these terms: "And as I said unto Abraham concerning the kindreds of the earth, even so I say unto 
my servant Joseph: In thee and in thy seed shall the kindred of the earth be blessed." Joseph Smith restored and was given the keys for fulfilling this promise.

59 Therefore, let my servant Joseph and his seed [if not literal, then in the Priesthood] after him have place in that house [if not in this "Nauvoo Hose" for various, then in the heavenly House of the Lord], from generation to generation, forever and ever, saith the Lord.

Since D&C 124 is about both sacred structures, they fulfil this promise in complimentary ways. The mission of the Nauvoo House was consistent with the Abrahamic Covenant. That resources were redirected from its completion to the higher priority temple construction doesn't change anything. The enemies of God only enjoy a temporary victory. The Manion House became a temporary solution to provide a home for the Smith family and provide room for, albeit fewer, visitors. Nauvoo House blesses the kindreds of the earth in a literal / temporal hotel setting where the things of the Spirit are facilitated, and the Nauvoo Temple blesses them in a symbolic / spiritual temple setting where the covenants of God are transmitted. Hopefully we can see their parallels with the literal seed of the body and the spiritual seed of the Priesthood.

I haven't watched this, but I imagine it covers these points: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/video/joseph-smith-papers/2009-02-1041-episode-41-the-nauvoo-temple-and-nauvoo-house?lang=eng

Edited November 8, 2025 by CV75

[Benjamin McGuire]

7 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Many of the leading men of the Church who led the Saints to Utah were sealed to Joseph, their descendants became missionaries, Church leaders, etc... that took the Lord's Restored Gospel to the nations, and it has spread out from there to fill the world.

It's really as simple as that.

Except it isn't that simple. This is a sort of prooftexting. It doesn't appear to be what was meant in the text. And the reality is that the Church eventually rejected this notion of sealings of adoption and instead patterned the relationships on biological familial relationships. That is, these sealings were replaced with sealings between children and their parents. Between these two things, your interpretation isn't meaningful at all. It is really as simple as that.

[ZealouslyStriving]

1 hour ago, Benjamin McGuire said:

Except it isn't that simple. This is a sort of prooftexting. It doesn't appear to be what was meant in the text. And the reality is that the Church eventually rejected this notion of sealings of adoption and instead patterned the relationships on biological familial relationships. That is, these sealings were replaced with sealings between children and their parents. Between these two things, your interpretation isn't meaningful at all. It is really as simple as that.

... Nevermind...

Edited November 9, 2025 by ZealouslyStriving

[Benjamin McGuire]

On 11/8/2025 at 9:47 PM, ZealouslyStriving said:

... Nevermind...

Why? You are presenting some really wrong ideas here. And it is really important to point this out because you are engaging with non-LDS and trying to persuade them that this is relevant LDS belief ...

[ZealouslyStriving]

1 hour ago, Benjamin McGuire said:

Why? You are presenting some really wrong ideas here. And it is really important to point this out because you are engaging with non-LDS and trying to persuade them that this is relevant LDS belief ...

🤷🏻‍♂️ OK

[telnetd]

On 11/8/2025 at 1:03 PM, teddyaware said:

There are a number of direct descendants of the Prophet Joseph Smith who have joined the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints who are presently making meaningful contributions to the cause of Zion; and there’s plenty of time between now and eternity for the descendants of Joseph Smith Junior to continue to multiply and have a major impact on the spiritual enlightenment and development of the human family. The seed spoken of in the bolded portion of the quoted verse will continue to expand by increasing multitudes into the far reaches of eternity, far beyond the first generation of the prophet’s immediate family.

What about the Joseph's descendants (seed) in the Community of Christ?

[telnetd]

On 11/8/2025 at 1:08 PM, ZealouslyStriving said:

Many of the leading men of the Church who led the Saints to Utah were sealed to Joseph, their descendants became missionaries, Church leaders, etc... that took the Lord's Restored Gospel to the nations, and it has spread out from there to fill the world.

It's really as simple as that.

How were men sealed to Joseph?

[ZealouslyStriving]

27 minutes ago, telnetd said:

How were men sealed to Joseph?

Through the sealing power of the Holy Melchizedek Priesthood.

[telnetd]

14 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Through the sealing power of the Holy Melchizedek Priesthood.

Would the women being sealed to Brigham Young make them both his seed and his wives?

[telnetd]

On 11/8/2025 at 4:34 PM, CV75 said:

From Abraham 2, a very comprehensive record the Abrahamic Covenant teaches that the Priesthood is metaphorically the seed. The restoration of the priesthood through Joseph Smith is key to fulfilling the promise that the kindred of the earth are blessed, on both sides of the veil.

8 My name is Jehovah, and I know the end from the beginning; therefore my hand shall be over thee.

9 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee above measure, and make thy name great among all nations, and thou shalt be a blessing unto thy seed after thee, that in their hands they shall bear this ministry and Priesthood unto all nations;

10 And I will bless them through thy name; for as many as receive this Gospel shall be called after thy name, and shall be accounted thy seed, and shall rise up and bless thee, as their father;

11 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse them that curse thee; and in thee (that is, in thy Priesthood) and in thy seed (that is, thy Priesthood), for I give unto thee a promise that this right shall continue in thee, and in thy seed after thee (that is to say, the literal seed, or the seed of the body) shall all the families of the earth be blessed, even with the blessings of the Gospel, which are the blessings of salvation, even of life eternal.

Joseph Smith is among Abraham's literal seed and his role is clear in fulfilling the promise to Abraham of blessing all the families of the earth. That is why D&C 124 refers to the Abrahamic Covenant in these terms: "And as I said unto Abraham concerning the kindreds of the earth, even so I say unto 
my servant Joseph: In thee and in thy seed shall the kindred of the earth be blessed." Joseph Smith restored and was given the keys for fulfilling this promise.

59 Therefore, let my servant Joseph and his seed [if not literal, then in the Priesthood] after him have place in that house [if not in this "Nauvoo Hose" for various, then in the heavenly House of the Lord], from generation to generation, forever and ever, saith the Lord.

Since D&C 124 is about both sacred structures, they fulfil this promise in complimentary ways. The mission of the Nauvoo House was consistent with the Abrahamic Covenant. That resources were redirected from its completion to the higher priority temple construction doesn't change anything. The enemies of God only enjoy a temporary victory. The Manion House became a temporary solution to provide a home for the Smith family and provide room for, albeit fewer, visitors. Nauvoo House blesses the kindreds of the earth in a literal / temporal hotel setting where the things of the Spirit are facilitated, and the Nauvoo Temple blesses them in a symbolic / spiritual temple setting where the covenants of God are transmitted. Hopefully we can see their parallels with the literal seed of the body and the spiritual seed of the Priesthood.

I haven't watched this, but I imagine it covers these points: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/video/joseph-smith-papers/2009-02-1041-episode-41-the-nauvoo-temple-and-nauvoo-house?lang=eng

Had an issue when submitting so this may be a duplicate.

"Seed" has several meanings.  Literal (many), spiritual (many), and one (individual).

Doctrine and Covenants 124:58 - "And as I said unto Abraham concerning the kindreds 
of the earth, even so I say unto my servant Joseph: In thee and in thy seed shall the 
kindred of the earth be blessed".

This implies literal seed, both to Abraham and Joseph Smith. "Abraham" in that verse 
has 3 references in support:

1) Genesis 12:3 - "And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth 
thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed".

2) Genesis 22:18 - "And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; 
because thou hast obeyed my voice"

3) Abraham 2:11 - "And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse them that curse thee; 
and in thee (that is, in thy Priesthood) and in thy seed (that is, thy Priesthood), for 
I give unto thee a promise that this right shall continue in thee, and in thy seed after 
thee (that is to say, the literal seed, or the seed of the body) shall all the families 
of the earth be blessed, even with the blessings of the Gospel, which are the blessings 
of salvation, even of life eternal".

"Seed" in (1) is Abraham.  (2) could be spiritual or individual or both.

"Seed" in (3) is grouped into being both the Priesthood AND literal seed.  Brigham Young
would be excluded. Joseph's other surviving sons would be included (Joseph Smith III, 
Frederick Granger Williams Smith, Alexander Hale Smith, David Hyrum Smith).  It cannot
even be determined if the current 15 apostles of the church are descendants of Abraham.

Abraham had other sons (Ishmael, Zimran, Jokshan, Medan, Midian, Ishbak, Shuah).  
They did not have the priesthood.  Old Testament only records the Levitical Priesthood 
for the tribe of Levi. This seed would be accounted to through Isaac (Genesis 21:12).

Some references are not included from Genesis 12. "And Abram passed through the land 
unto the place of Sichem, unto the plain of Moreh. And the Canaanite was then in the 
land. And the Lord appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: 
and there builded he an altar unto the Lord, who appeared unto him".

This is literal seed.

In Galatians 3:16-17, Paul says "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He 
saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, 
which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the 
promise of none effect".

Women are excluded if Abraham 2:11 really is "seed" in the sense of "Priesthood".

[Calm]

13 minutes ago, telnetd said:

Would the women being sealed to Brigham Young make them both his seed and his wives?

There are currently two different types of sealings, a parent child relationship and a marriage relationship.  I may be wrong in my understanding of adoption sealings, but I believe the language was the same or very similar to how they would seal parents and children (for parent child sealings originally—until the revelation commanding our sealings to our actual parents, both had to be living as far as I know, though marriage sealings were done by proxy quite early on).

[webbles]

13 minutes ago, telnetd said:

Would the women being sealed to Brigham Young make them both his seed and his wives?

He is talking about the "Law of Adoption" which was a specific type of sealing that occurred between 1840s and 1894.  A really brief rundown can be read at wiki - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_adoption_(Mormonism).

Sealings with wives is not the same thing.  There were very few women who were sealed through the "Law of Adoption" and I believe all of them were done as a couple, where the husband and wife were adopted by another man.  I don't think any single women were adopted.

 

@ZealouslyStriving, I don't think Joseph Smith had many men sealed to him.  I believe those type of sealings only occurred after his death and only in temples.  And it looks like only one man was sealed to him in the Nauvoo temple by proxy (John Bernhisel from https://archive.org/details/nauvoo-sealings-adoptions-and-anointings/page/280/mode/2up).  I don't know if there were any done in the other temples before 1894.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, telnetd said:

Had an issue when submitting so this may be a duplicate.

"Seed" has several meanings.  Literal (many), spiritual (many), and one (individual).

Doctrine and Covenants 124:58 - "And as I said unto Abraham concerning the kindreds 
of the earth, even so I say unto my servant Joseph: In thee and in thy seed shall the 
kindred of the earth be blessed".

This implies literal seed, both to Abraham and Joseph Smith. "Abraham" in that verse 
has 3 references in support:

1) Genesis 12:3 - "And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth 
thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed".

2) Genesis 22:18 - "And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; 
because thou hast obeyed my voice"

3) Abraham 2:11 - "And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse them that curse thee; 
and in thee (that is, in thy Priesthood) and in thy seed (that is, thy Priesthood), for 
I give unto thee a promise that this right shall continue in thee, and in thy seed after 
thee (that is to say, the literal seed, or the seed of the body) shall all the families 
of the earth be blessed, even with the blessings of the Gospel, which are the blessings 
of salvation, even of life eternal".

"Seed" in (1) is Abraham.  (2) could be spiritual or individual or both.

"Seed" in (3) is grouped into being both the Priesthood AND literal seed.  Brigham Young
would be excluded. Joseph's other surviving sons would be included (Joseph Smith III, 
Frederick Granger Williams Smith, Alexander Hale Smith, David Hyrum Smith).  It cannot
even be determined if the current 15 apostles of the church are descendants of Abraham.

Abraham had other sons (Ishmael, Zimran, Jokshan, Medan, Midian, Ishbak, Shuah).  
They did not have the priesthood.  Old Testament only records the Levitical Priesthood 
for the tribe of Levi. This seed would be accounted to through Isaac (Genesis 21:12).

Some references are not included from Genesis 12. "And Abram passed through the land 
unto the place of Sichem, unto the plain of Moreh. And the Canaanite was then in the 
land. And the Lord appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: 
and there builded he an altar unto the Lord, who appeared unto him".

This is literal seed.

In Galatians 3:16-17, Paul says "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He 
saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, 
which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the 
promise of none effect".

Women are excluded if Abraham 2:11 really is "seed" in the sense of "Priesthood".

There are three layers of implication, as you point out, and that is one way of putting it all together. But to put it all together well, all three layers must be integrated or reconciled in Christ.

Abraham was a High Priest who held the  priesthood right to administer priesthood ordinances, though not the keys of this gospel promise known as the gospel of Abraham, a principle under the gospel of Jesus Christ who ultimately holds the keys to direct the gospel of Abraham (Christ delegated the keys for this work to Elias). It was by this arrangement Abraham received or was administered the covenant. His seed who are men may also hold these priesthood rights. Women may hold these priesthood rights for temple service, but most generally draw upon the power of God (priesthood) as they make and keep covenants with God administered to them by those who have the right to do so. Children are born into the covenant as administered by those who have the right to do so (the men and women who are their parents) or adopted into the covenant as administered by those men who have the right to do so in the temple. Very broadly speaking, every human being can draw upon the power of God by virtue of the light of Christ, and while this is outside the narrower scope of the Abrahamic Covenant or gospel of Abraham, it leads those who abide in it to Christ and into the covenant. Elijah held the sealing keys to make these covenant promises binding in heaven and on earth. So, the gospel of Abraham is administered under Abraham's promise, which right is authorized under is under the keys of Elias.

Thus, women are included since Abraham 2:11 is also "seed" in the sense of "Priesthood".

Abraham’s literal seed is indeterminate these days, but by faith we believe they can be found all over the earth by now, highlighting the importance of gathering Israel for the purpose of fulfilling the gospel of Abraham by sealing up literal and adopted seed alike under the gospel of Jesus Christ (D&C 110, which gives some basic background for D&C 124).

[telnetd]

On 11/11/2025 at 2:09 PM, webbles said:

Sealings with wives is not the same thing.  There were very few women who were sealed through the "Law of Adoption" and I believe all of them were done as a couple, where the husband and wife were adopted by another man.  I don't think any single women were adopted.

Were couples (a husband and wife) sealed to others besides Joseph Smith?

[telnetd]

On 11/11/2025 at 4:06 PM, CV75 said:

Abraham was a High Priest who held the  priesthood right to administer priesthood ordinances

Which ones?

On 11/11/2025 at 4:06 PM, CV75 said:

Thus, women are included since Abraham 2:11 is also "seed" in the sense of "Priesthood".

Are women in the royal priesthood of believers (1 Peter 2)?

[CV75]

3 hours ago, telnetd said:

Which ones?

Are women in the royal priesthood of believers (1 Peter 2)?

The ordinances that set the gospel covenants in Abraham's day may not look exactly the same today, but I would say at the very least, circumcision. The Priesthood, or the power of God delegated to the prophets, was the same then as it is today. The priesthood organization (nation) is the medium through which the priesthood (substance manifest the power of God) is authoritatively manifest on earth and in heaven through ordinances and covenants. Some of His servants (royalty) administer in earth and some in heaven, but they are not intermediaries. Jesus Christ is the only Intermediary between God and mankind, individually and collectively. He determines the ordinances and covenants of each dispensation, and how they are administered.

Yes, I believe women are covered in the statements about believers in 1 Peter 2. As lively stones, they are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. They are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that they should shew forth the praises of Him who hath called them out of darkness into His marvellous light. They are the people of God and follow the kind of counsel Peter gave.

The term "royal priesthood of [all] believers is a theological doctrine that I do not see specifically expounded upon in 1 Peter 2, but Jesus Christ covers all people and His Priesthood is the means by which He fully joins with them in His covenant, some sooner and some later, but eventually all have the opportunity since there is no other Intermediary.

[webbles]

4 hours ago, telnetd said:

Were couples (a husband and wife) sealed to others besides Joseph Smith?

Yes.  More were sealed to others than Joseph Smith.  I think the total was around 200.

[telnetd]

On 11/13/2025 at 4:27 PM, CV75 said:

The ordinances that set the gospel covenants in Abraham's day may not look exactly the same today, but I would say at the very least, circumcision.

Only that one?

[InCognitus]

On 11/11/2025 at 11:58 AM, telnetd said:

"Seed" has several meanings.  Literal (many), spiritual (many), and one (individual).

Doctrine and Covenants 124:58 - "And as I said unto Abraham concerning the kindreds 
of the earth, even so I say unto my servant Joseph: In thee and in thy seed shall the 
kindred of the earth be blessed".

This implies literal seed, both to Abraham and Joseph Smith. "Abraham" in that verse 
has 3 references in support:

1) Genesis 12:3 - "And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth 
thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed".

2) Genesis 22:18 - "And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; 
because thou hast obeyed my voice"

3) Abraham 2:11 - "And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse them that curse thee; 
and in thee (that is, in thy Priesthood) and in thy seed (that is, thy Priesthood), for 
I give unto thee a promise that this right shall continue in thee, and in thy seed after 
thee (that is to say, the literal seed, or the seed of the body) shall all the families 
of the earth be blessed, even with the blessings of the Gospel, which are the blessings 
of salvation, even of life eternal".

"Seed" in (1) is Abraham.  (2) could be spiritual or individual or both.

"Seed" in (3) is grouped into being both the Priesthood AND literal seed.  Brigham Young
would be excluded. Joseph's other surviving sons would be included (Joseph Smith III, 
Frederick Granger Williams Smith, Alexander Hale Smith, David Hyrum Smith).  It cannot
even be determined if the current 15 apostles of the church are descendants of Abraham.

Abraham had other sons (Ishmael, Zimran, Jokshan, Medan, Midian, Ishbak, Shuah).  
They did not have the priesthood.  Old Testament only records the Levitical Priesthood 
for the tribe of Levi. This seed would be accounted to through Isaac (Genesis 21:12).

Some references are not included from Genesis 12. "And Abram passed through the land 
unto the place of Sichem, unto the plain of Moreh. And the Canaanite was then in the 
land. And the Lord appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: 
and there builded he an altar unto the Lord, who appeared unto him".

This is literal seed.

Abraham is told in several of the verses that you quoted that "in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed".  This is both literal and spiritual, as Abraham 2:11 points out.  But the reality of how the "nations of the earth" will be "blessed" has to do with the spiritual aspect of that "seed", and not the literal sense. 

Consider what Jesus taught the Jews in John 8:31–47 as evidence of this:

• 31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
• 32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
• 33 They answered him, We be Abraham’s seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
• 34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
• 35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
• 36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
• 37 I know that ye are Abraham’s seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
• 38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
• 39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham’s children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
• 40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
• 41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
• 42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
• 43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
• 44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
• 45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
• 46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
• 47 He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

Now, in the verses quoted above, who are the seed of Abraham that are those through which "all the nations of the earth [will] be blessed"?  Those who rejected Jesus and wanted to kill him, or those who "do the works of Abraham"? 

Also, who are the seed of the Messiah as discussed in Isaiah 53:10?

"Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand."  (Isaiah 53:10)

Maybe I should post that verse in the "Was the Lord Fertile?" thread.

Edited November 16, 2025 by InCognitus

[CV75]

6 hours ago, telnetd said:

Only that one?

Animal sacrifice was an ordinance. Latter-day scriptures attest that he was made a High Priest and entered celestial marriage; these are two ordinances. Since we also learn from these scriptures that he was exalted, any other applicable ordinance would apply, reasonably including the temple ordinances of his day and any he likely received from Melchizedek (such as the bread and wine and blessing in Genesis 14). Some believe since baptism is so foundational and other patriarchs such as Adam and Enoch baptized and were baptized, he too was baptized.