Joseph Smith and the Problem of Evil

[Teancum]

On 10/22/2025 at 4:15 PM, JVW said:

Well, in case I wasn't clear enough, I do not know the mind of God. But I do know three things more surely than I know that I exist and that you're not an AI poster: there is a God, God is love beyond the ability of human comprehension, and there is an afterlife. So while I may not know why the most loving being in existence designed life to be torturous, cruel, and full of disease and death I believe that the way things are are the most loving way that things could be.

Why is it LDS persons have to say "I know." What is wrong with saying one has a very strong and heartfelt faith. Because you really do not know in the way most people understand someone when they say "I know."

On 10/22/2025 at 4:15 PM, JVW said:

Can I fault anyone for hating God or viewing Him as evil? No. And if you view Him that way I don't blame you. I'm sure you've been hurt in very serious ways, as we all have, and that any of us can be justified in turning our backs on God.

I don't hate God if there is a God. I am skeptical that such a being that you believe in exists and the fact that we live with such awful evil and suffering is strong evince that an theistic God of Judaism, Islam and Christianity, that reveals himself to humans, exists. If there is such a being I think the awful God of Calvinism matches the biblical description of God.  My take, if there is a higher power, it is likley a god like the Deists imagine.

[Teancum]

On 10/22/2025 at 9:10 PM, ZealouslyStriving said:

If that is what you want to call faith, I can't stop you.

It is accurate IMO.

[ZealouslyStriving]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

It is accurate IMO.

Again, I can't stop you from having your own opinion(s).

[JVW]

On 10/25/2025 at 3:46 PM, Teancum said:

No. You keep saying you do not know the mind of God and then you tell us things that you could only know by knowing the mind of God.

You kind of have me confused here. I've been giving my opinion, based on where I'm currently at with my walk with God. You're making me out to be some sort of proud, arrogant, holier-than-thou jerk.

[JVW]

On 10/25/2025 at 3:51 PM, Teancum said:

JVW: "But I do know three things more surely than I know that I exist and that you're not an AI poster: there is a God, God is love beyond the ability of human comprehension, and there is an afterlife."

Why is it LDS persons have to say "I know." What is wrong with saying one has a very strong and heartfelt faith. Because you really do not know in the way most people understand someone when they say "I know."

I am very particular when I use the term "I know" and what I told you in the above quote are the only things I truly know. Of course I know things like "2+2=4" and "I need to drink water or I'll die", things like that. But all of that other stuff presupposes that I am actually existing right now and not dreaming. Setting material stuff aside and focusing only on the religious, everything else that I'm aware of is on a scale of belief. I don't know that Jesus is the son of God, or that His atonement actually happened. I don't know that the Book of Mormon is true. I don't know if the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is God's church. I don't even know if I believe in the Holy Bible, or the priesthood, or Joseph Smith. As to each of these topics, I could give a scale out of ten response to how much I believe, or how much I want to believe, in these things.

I appreciate you being very sensitive to the use of the phrase "I know" because it indicates to me a strong, critical thinking mind. I am also sensitive to that phrase and fast and testimony meeting usually drives me up a wall. People aren't very thoughtful and I think it's especially tragic when a little kid is "encouraged" to go up and says "I know the church is true. etc, etc."

Whether you believe me or not, based on the experience I have had, that I cannot prove to anyone else, I am absolutely 100% certain that there is a God, that God (idk whether God is in human form, or has a gender, or whether God is Allah or the God of Israel) is love, and that there is an afterlife. We are all in for a real treat when we die, and those who don't believe me can just enjoy the nice surprise after they die, because I'm not wrong here. I know it.

If my assertion that I know there is a God is what makes me appear to be proud and arrogant, then so be it. I know it. But you started getting on me about knowing the mind of God before I made that assertion so I don't think that's why you've been on me about that.

On 10/25/2025 at 3:51 PM, Teancum said:

I don't hate God if there is a God. I am skeptical that such a being that you believe in exists and the fact that we live with such awful evil and suffering is strong evince that an theistic God of Judaism, Islam and Christianity, that reveals himself to humans, exists. If there is such a being I think the awful God of Calvinism matches the biblical description of God.  My take, if there is a higher power, it is likley a god like the Deists imagine.

You are welcome to be skeptical and I honestly cannot fault you for being skeptical. There's nothing I've read on this forum that you've written that I thought was unreasonable to believe. 

[teddyaware]

53 minutes ago, JVW said:

I am very particular when I use the term "I know" and what I told you in the above quote are the only things I truly know. Of course I know things like "2+2=4" and "I need to drink water or I'll die", things like that. But all of that other stuff presupposes that I am actually existing right now and not dreaming. Setting material stuff aside and focusing only on the religious, everything else that I'm aware of is on a scale of belief. I don't know that Jesus is the son of God, or that His atonement actually happened. I don't know that the Book of Mormon is true. I don't know if the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is God's church. I don't even know if I believe in the Holy Bible, or the priesthood, or Joseph Smith. As to each of these topics, I could give a scale out of ten response to how much I believe, or how much I want to believe, in these things.

I appreciate you being very sensitive to the use of the phrase "I know" because it indicates to me a strong, critical thinking mind. I am also sensitive to that phrase and fast and testimony meeting usually drives me up a wall. People aren't very thoughtful and I think it's especially tragic when a little kid is "encouraged" to go up and says "I know the church is true. etc, etc."

Whether you believe me or not, based on the experience I have had, that I cannot prove to anyone else, I am absolutely 100% certain that there is a God, that God (idk whether God is in human form, or has a gender, or whether God is Allah or the God of Israel) is love, and that there is an afterlife. We are all in for a real treat when we die, and those who don't believe me can just enjoy the nice surprise after they die, because I'm not wrong here. I know it.

If my assertion that I know there is a God is what makes me appear to be proud and arrogant, then so be it. I know it. But you started getting on me about knowing the mind of God before I made that assertion so I don't think that's why you've been on me about that.

You are welcome to be skeptical and I honestly cannot fault you for being skeptical. There's nothing I've read on this forum that you've written that I thought was unreasonable to believe. 

Unbelievers will always find it impossible to comprehend that there comes a point in the process of true spiritual enlightenment and growth when living faith becomes much more more powerful, clear and convincing than sight. But as you say, there will come a point when even the unbelievers will find the proof of God’s existence to be so powerful that it will become undeniable.

Edited October 28, 2025 by teddyaware

[The Nehor]

7 hours ago, JVW said:

I am very particular when I use the term "I know" and what I told you in the above quote are the only things I truly know. Of course I know things like "2+2=4" and "I need to drink water or I'll die", things like that. But all of that other stuff presupposes that I am actually existing right now and not dreaming. Setting material stuff aside and focusing only on the religious, everything else that I'm aware of is on a scale of belief. I don't know that Jesus is the son of God, or that His atonement actually happened. I don't know that the Book of Mormon is true. I don't know if the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is God's church. I don't even know if I believe in the Holy Bible, or the priesthood, or Joseph Smith. As to each of these topics, I could give a scale out of ten response to how much I believe, or how much I want to believe, in these things.

I appreciate you being very sensitive to the use of the phrase "I know" because it indicates to me a strong, critical thinking mind. I am also sensitive to that phrase and fast and testimony meeting usually drives me up a wall. People aren't very thoughtful and I think it's especially tragic when a little kid is "encouraged" to go up and says "I know the church is true. etc, etc."

Whether you believe me or not, based on the experience I have had, that I cannot prove to anyone else, I am absolutely 100% certain that there is a God, that God (idk whether God is in human form, or has a gender, or whether God is Allah or the God of Israel) is love, and that there is an afterlife. We are all in for a real treat when we die, and those who don't believe me can just enjoy the nice surprise after they die, because I'm not wrong here. I know it.

If my assertion that I know there is a God is what makes me appear to be proud and arrogant, then so be it. I know it. But you started getting on me about knowing the mind of God before I made that assertion so I don't think that's why you've been on me about that.

You are welcome to be skeptical and I honestly cannot fault you for being skeptical. There's nothing I've read on this forum that you've written that I thought was unreasonable to believe. 

I think the term “I am convinced that X is Y” is probably more literally accurate but I doubt it would catch on.

[JVW]

19 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I think the term “I am convinced that X is Y” is probably more literally accurate but I doubt it would catch on.

I would agree if the experience happened in the realm of normal human experience. But when having an experience with the divine, it involves feelings beyond the normal human range of feeling, and the perception is beyond the normal human range of perception. It's just different and the knowledge is obtained in a unique manner that no amount of observation or experiments could ever have an equal amount of convincing weight. I just know. Sorry that it's so hard to explain. But it is, in fact, because of the one or two experiences I've had of receiving knowledge in this way that makes me so cautious and cynical about other people when they say "I know" something. To really know something is on a different level.

[Teancum]

On 10/28/2025 at 11:10 AM, JVW said:

You kind of have me confused here. I've been giving my opinion, based on where I'm currently at with my walk with God. You're making me out to be some sort of proud, arrogant, holier-than-thou jerk.

No that is not my intent. I am simply trying to illustrate that most people who are religious will often say they and nobody really knows the mind of God.  But then they make arguments that can only be made by asserting to know the mind of God to at least some extent.  Now I understand that you and other believers are simply saying things that you have a knowledge about from written Canon you believe is from God as well as from things you learn from religious  leaders, scholars, authors, church manuals, seminary, institute and so on. So when you say God this or God that your language is couched in what you have learned from a variety of sources. These sources actually to claim to know the mind of God.  But humans from all walks of various religious beliefs have their texts and teachers that expound about God, or gods or spiritual things that are unseen and they all conflict to varying degrees. But all claim to know something about what some god being or higher power thinks. And for theistic religions that believe this god being reveals itself to some extent to humans, there are those self professed or proclaimed prophets that actually tell us what they teach is the mind of God and that the God they represent speaks directly to them.  I wonder if there is a God being why that being just doesn't make it mind and will known to all of us directly.  But of course the counter and convenient argument is then we do not have to have faith and so on, which I think is an excuse, a crutch and a convenient cop out.  I know that sounds harsh but look it from a skeptic's view. Take Joseph Smith.  One has to trust the Joseph it telling us the truth, that he really did see God, have angelic visions and so on. Of course we have his life and what he produced to judge whether we can trust him and take it on faith. And yes I know there is asking God ourselves and the witness of the spirit but that is fraught with problems as well.  But this theistic God that you talk about seems to be well hidden. And in addition to that this God sure didn't shy away from big miracles that allegedly were witnessed by many thousands of years ago but today similar miracles are painfully absent, Why is this God hiding so well?

 

Hope this makes sense to you, whether you agree or not.

[Teancum]

On 10/28/2025 at 11:22 AM, JVW said:

I am very particular when I use the term "I know" and what I told you in the above quote are the only things I truly know. Of course I know things like "2+2=4" and "I need to drink water or I'll die", things like that. But all of that other stuff presupposes that I am actually existing right now and not dreaming. Setting material stuff aside and focusing only on the religious, everything else that I'm aware of is on a scale of belief. I don't know that Jesus is the son of God, or that His atonement actually happened. I don't know that the Book of Mormon is true. I don't know if the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is God's church. I don't even know if I believe in the Holy Bible, or the priesthood, or Joseph Smith. As to each of these topics, I could give a scale out of ten response to how much I believe, or how much I want to believe, in these things.

I appreciate you being very sensitive to the use of the phrase "I know" because it indicates to me a strong, critical thinking mind. I am also sensitive to that phrase and fast and testimony meeting usually drives me up a wall. People aren't very thoughtful and I think it's especially tragic when a little kid is "encouraged" to go up and says "I know the church is true. etc, etc."

Whether you believe me or not, based on the experience I have had, that I cannot prove to anyone else, I am absolutely 100% certain that there is a God, that God (idk whether God is in human form, or has a gender, or whether God is Allah or the God of Israel) is love, and that there is an afterlife. We are all in for a real treat when we die, and those who don't believe me can just enjoy the nice surprise after they die, because I'm not wrong here. I know it.

If my assertion that I know there is a God is what makes me appear to be proud and arrogant, then so be it. I know it. But you started getting on me about knowing the mind of God before I made that assertion so I don't think that's why you've been on me about that.

You are welcome to be skeptical and I honestly cannot fault you for being skeptical. There's nothing I've read on this forum that you've written that I thought was unreasonable to believe. 

I appreciate your summary and explanation, I do not think you are arrogant at all.

[Teancum]

On 10/28/2025 at 12:15 PM, teddyaware said:

Unbelievers will always find it impossible to comprehend that there comes a point in the process of true spiritual enlightenment and growth when living faith becomes much more more powerful, clear and convincing than sight. But as you say, there will come a point when even the unbelievers will find the proof of God’s existence to be so powerful that it will become undeniable.

Well Teddy, I was as much of a believer as you are for most my life. So I understand what you describe quite well actually, despite your attempt to smear us awful apostates and cast us in the worst light possible. Your approach is really a defense mechanism for your own cognitive dissonance I think.

[teddyaware]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

Well Teddy, I was as much of a believer as you are for most my life. So I understand what you describe quite well actually, despite your attempt to smear us awful apostates and cast us in the worst light possible. Your approach is really a defense mechanism for your own cognitive dissonance I think.

I was simply putting the Apostle Paul’s laser sharp words of inspiration on the subject of spiritual enlightenment into my own words. I’m glad to be found in the company of the great Paul, whom I love. It’s easy to imagine that you would respond dismissively to Paul’s revelatory observations in the same way you responded to mine, so no offense taken. It’s only par for the course for natural men to come to the conclusion that the spiritually enlightened are deluded fools. Next time surprise me with a response that isn’t so cliche.

11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. (1 Corinthians 2)

 

 

[JVW]

3 hours ago, Teancum said:

No that is not my intent. I am simply trying to illustrate that most people who are religious will often say they and nobody really knows the mind of God.  But then they make arguments that can only be made by asserting to know the mind of God to at least some extent.  Now I understand that you and other believers are simply saying things that you have a knowledge about from written Canon you believe is from God as well as from things you learn from religious  leaders, scholars, authors, church manuals, seminary, institute and so on. So when you say God this or God that your language is couched in what you have learned from a variety of sources. These sources actually to claim to know the mind of God.  But humans from all walks of various religious beliefs have their texts and teachers that expound about God, or gods or spiritual things that are unseen and they all conflict to varying degrees. But all claim to know something about what some god being or higher power thinks. And for theistic religions that believe this god being reveals itself to some extent to humans, there are those self professed or proclaimed prophets that actually tell us what they teach is the mind of God and that the God they represent speaks directly to them. 

I wonder if there is a God being why that being just doesn't make it mind and will known to all of us directly.  But of course the counter and convenient argument is then we do not have to have faith and so on, which I think is an excuse, a crutch and a convenient cop out. 

I know that sounds harsh but look it from a skeptic's view. Take Joseph Smith.  One has to trust the Joseph it telling us the truth, that he really did see God, have angelic visions and so on. Of course we have his life and what he produced to judge whether we can trust him and take it on faith. And yes I know there is asking God ourselves and the witness of the spirit but that is fraught with problems as well.  But this theistic God that you talk about seems to be well hidden. And in addition to that this God sure didn't shy away from big miracles that allegedly were witnessed by many thousands of years ago but today similar miracles are painfully absent, Why is this God hiding so well?

 

Hope this makes sense to you, whether you agree or not.

I agree with you and I understand what you're saying.

We all have to make our best guess about what God is thinking. Those who think that the problem of evil means that God is evil; or those who believe God created us and then left us alone in some sort of cruel experiment; or those who believe that God used evolution as a means to create life; whatever ideas people have about God are all implicit in that person having a certain idea, based on their own perception and experiences, about how God thinks.

I don't know for other religions, but I know for Christianity in general that one verse in Isaiah would be the reason why a Christian would say "I don't know the mind of God." The verse says something like "my ways are higher than your ways, and my thoughts higher than your thoughts." While I have read a lot of religious text since my conversion, I have spent many years distant from God, not studying much religious material, and it was during those years that I had the fiercest struggles with Him and learned the most about Him (through my life experiences). But I definitely feel like "the blind man and the elephant" fable is apt here. I'm touching the trunk and think the animal I'm touching is a serpent. I firmly believe that the way that I know God know is 99% wrong and will evolve and change as I grow older and will still be just as wrong when I die. I'm no prophet. I'm just a simple minded foolish kind of guy.

As to the latter two parts of your text regarding why God remains mysterious and hiding so well I have my own belief about that, and it's a pretty satisfactory answer for me at this point in my life. It's basically that the more I know, the more I'll be condemned when I break the law. So, out of love, in order to exercise the least amount of justice against me as possible I'm kept in the dark. That is why faith exists and why God remains hidden. I am very happy that God lets me make really bad decisions. And I'm happy that in many cases I really don't know better because I'm an idiot and God hasn't revealed very much to me so I operate a lot on a "desire to believe".

I've enjoyed chatting with you brother, this is a hard topic.

[manol]

6 hours ago, JVW said:

I definitely feel like "the blind man and the elephant" fable is apt here. I'm touching the trunk and think the animal I'm touching is a serpent. I firmly believe that the way that I know God know is 99% wrong and will evolve and change as I grow older and will still be just as wrong when I die.

Amen brother. 

Imo this is an area wherein when we think we already know all there is to know, that's when we stop learning. 

And imo we need not wait until someone in a position of ecclesiastical authority gives us permission to seek greater light and knowledge.  Imo "the system" has been deliberately set up such that that quest is one we choose entirely on our own. 

[Teancum]

23 hours ago, teddyaware said:

was simply putting the Apostle Paul’s laser sharp words of inspiration on the subject of spiritual enlightenment into my own words. I’m glad to be found in the company of the great Paul, whom I love. It’s easy to imagine that you would respond dismissively to Paul’s revelatory observations in the same way you responded to mine, so no offense taken. It’s only par for the course for natural men to come to the conclusion that the spiritually enlightened are deluded fools. Next time surprise me with a response that isn’t so cliche.

My how special you are and must feel. I am happy for you. And I do not call believers deluded fools so don't pin that on me. Though some believers are certainly self righteous. arrogant, smug and overly pious.