Moses 7:32 - knowledge in their day of creation

[marineland]

6 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Do you believe that evil is a created thing?

Could be both. Evil (a thing) is as evil (a being) does.

[ZealouslyStriving]

25 minutes ago, marineland said:

Could be both. Evil (a thing) is as evil (a being) does.

Who created evil?

If God, why would he,as an omniscient, omnipotent Being of love, create evil ?

Edited October 10, 2025 by ZealouslyStriving
Grammar correction

[teddyaware]

1 minute ago, marineland said:

Do spirits have a tabernacle in a premortal life?

Did intelligences have agency before they were formed into spirit children?

1) It can be said that the organized spirit bodies of the spirit children of God were a kind of spiritual tabernacle for the uncreated intelligences that we all were prior to our spiritual birth in heaven as the sons and daughters of God.

2) Doctrine and Covenants 93 makes it perfectly clear that all intelligences, no matter how advanced in knowledge or rudimentary they might be, have agency. The inherent agency and preservation of the agency of all intelligences is so indispensably important that there is no point to existence unless intelligences have agency. A question: What would be the point of God creating humanoid automatons who can’t think and decide for themselves? The fact that God allowed fallen Lucifer and the tree of the knowledge to be and exist in Eden prior to fall bespeaks to the importance of the inviolability of agency in the mind of God. The following verse plainly reveals that without the agency of all intelligences there would have been no rational reason for the creation. After reading and digesting this post, there should be no reason for you to continue asking the same question about agency…

30 All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence. (Doctrine and Covenants 93)

[Pyreaux]

40 minutes ago, marineland said:

Do spirits have a tabernacle in a premortal life?

Did intelligences have agency before they were formed into spirit children?

Somewhat odd questions. In LDS doctrine, the term "tabernacle" is most commonly used to refer to the mortal physical body. Spirits are not often described as having a tabernacle of spirit. However, they do have a spirit body, which is described as being in the "form of God's physical body" and spirit matter is "more fine or pure" than matter the physical body. Perhaps in modern terms, he meant energy.

The simplest, and perhaps most widely accepted, model is that a spirit is an intelligence that has been organized into a spirit body. Rather than an entity encased in spirit matter.

LDS doctrine teaches that agency is an eternal attribute of all intelligent beings, which includes the earliest state of human existence.

Intelligences refers to the eternal, uncreated part of humankind. Scripture states, "Intelligence... was not created or made, neither indeed can be" and that all intelligence is an independent agent, "independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself." (Doctrine and Covenants 93:30)

This scripture is cited as evidence that agency (the ability to act and choose) is inherent to the very nature of intelligence, which has always existed. And spirits possessed and exercised their agency, as evidenced by the "War in Heaven."

In summary, the principle of agency is understood to be just as eternal and uncreated as the fundamental intelligence itself.

[JVW]

27 minutes ago, Pyreaux said:

Somewhat odd questions. In LDS doctrine, the term "tabernacle" is most commonly used to refer to the mortal physical body. Spirits are not often described as having a tabernacle of spirit. However, they do have a spirit body, which is described as being in the "form of God's physical body" and spirit matter is "more fine or pure" than matter the physical body. Perhaps in modern terms, he meant energy.

The simplest, and perhaps most widely accepted, model is that a spirit is an intelligence that has been organized into a spirit body. Rather than an entity encased in spirit matter.

LDS doctrine teaches that agency is an eternal attribute of all intelligent beings, which includes the earliest state of human existence.

Intelligences refers to the eternal, uncreated part of humankind. Scripture states, "Intelligence... was not created or made, neither indeed can be" and that all intelligence is an independent agent, "independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself." (Doctrine and Covenants 93:30)

This scripture is cited as evidence that agency (the ability to act and choose) is inherent to the very nature of intelligence, which has always existed. And spirits possessed and exercised their agency, as evidenced by the "War in Heaven."

In summary, the principle of agency is understood to be just as eternal and uncreated as the fundamental intelligence itself.

I'm pretty sure that the intelligences -> spirits -> physical body pipeline is not LDS doctrine. There is one place in all of the Standard Works that uses the word intelligence in its plural form, and that's Abraham 3:23 or somewhere around there. As far as spirits having a body is concerned, again, there is one verse in all of the standard works that references that idea, and it is an implication which could very well be just an imperfection in the way the Book of Mormon is written when the premortal Jesus, speaking to the brother of Jared states, "this is the body of my spirit".

I don't know historical church support for this idea or who the first person was to craft this kind of pipeline narrative, but I don't think it started with Joseph Smith because he preached that our spirits are eternal and we came to have God as our father because he presented laws to us that we chose to comply with in order to progress. I know that a couple of years ago Elder Christofferson stated in General Conference the "pipeline" concept, so I could take that as LDS doctrine at that point but! One apostle saying one thing that could be interpreted to be true by one verse and implied by one other verse is, at best, really shaky doctrine.

I do not like this idea at all. I believe that my spirit has always existed and is eternal. I do not believe that celestial parents are up in heaven being celestially intimate to create spirit bodies for "intelligences" whatever that is. It doesn't make any sense to me. How can a glorified, exalted, physical being get pregnant and give birth to anything other than a glorified, exalted, physical being. And on that note, while I'm on this tangent, I view the plan of salvation as God's pregnancy. The plan of salvation is how we go from the point of conception to being born, after much turmoil and labor, into an glorified, exalted, physical child just like our parents.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, JVW said:

I'm pretty sure that the intelligences -> spirits -> physical body pipeline is not LDS doctrine. There is one place in all of the Standard Works that uses the word intelligence in its plural form, and that's Abraham 3:23 or somewhere around there.

It is, however, an LDS teaching.  And probably the current dominant interpretation of revelation about the preexisting forms of humanity.  I know there are some though who see it as a two stage (so far) rather than a three stage process, with intelligences being interchangeable with spirits.  My memory is they point to Joseph Smith using the terms interchangeably and the language of scripture suggests we were adopted by God and thus became his spirit children, but it’s been awhile since the last time I saw this type of discussion, so I may have misremembered.

However, the tripartite version seems to be the much more popular, taught in Primary to RS/PH.

Quote

There is something that is not created or made. The Scriptures called it ‘intelligence,’ which at a certain stage in the pre-existence was organized into a ‘spirit.’ After that spirit had grown to a certain stature it then was given the opportunity by an all-wise Father to come into another stage for its development. It was added upon, and after having lived its span and having attained to its purpose in mortality, another change took place. We go, not into another life in fact, but into another stage of the same life. There is something which was not created or made, and something which does not die, and that something shall live on forever.”

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teachings-harold-b-lee/chapter-2?lang=eng

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/doctrine-and-covenants-student-manual-2017/chapter-36-doctrine-and-covenants-93?lang=eng

Quote

“Some of our writers have endeavored to explain what an intelligence is, but to do so is futile, for we have never been given an insight into this matter beyond what the Lord has fragmentarily revealed. We know, however, that there is something called intelligence which always existed. It is the real eternal part of man, which was not created or made. This intelligence combined with the spirit constitutes a spiritual identity or individual.

“The spirit of man, then, is a combination of the intelligence and the spirit which is an entity begotten of God” (The Progress of Man [1936], 11).

 

Otoh, right above this quote is commentary that shows the ambiguity because “spirit” gets applied to “intelligence” rather than a separate ‘material’.

Quote

The term intelligence can be used to describe “the spirit element that existed before we were begotten as spirit children” (Guide to the Scriptures, “Intelligence, Intelligences,” scriptures.lds.org).

Does that mean intelligences are similar to atoms that put together are physical bodies?  It is “intelligence” that is the refined, more pure spirit matter?  If so, then hasn’t God formed our eternal personalities, etc by choosing what intelligence building blocks he used to organize us?  If so, are we really that independent as actors?

Or is something else being suggested here?

Here’s another that uses intelligence and spirit interchangeably, that suggests our spirits are eternal (and thus being begotten by God means adopted):

Quote

“Intelligence is eternal and exists upon a self-existent principle. It is a spirit from age to age and there is no creation about it. …

Here is a nonChurch website and therefore nonofficial discussion about the tripartite model, including how it developed.

https://bycommonconsent.com/2009/04/15/tripartite-existentialism/

Edited October 10, 2025 by Calm

[ZealouslyStriving]

6 minutes ago, Calm said:

I know there are some though who see it as a two stage (so far) rather than a three stage process, with intelligences being interchangeable with spirits.  My memory is they point to Joseph Smith using the terms interchangeably and the language of scripture suggests we were adopted by God and thus became his spirit children, but it’s been awhile since the last time I saw this type of discussion, so I may have misremembered

That seems to be the premise of Blake Ostler's theological musings. (Which is why I throw it out there when someone insists that we monolithically believe one certain way.)

[teddyaware]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

It is, however, an LDS teaching.  And probably the current dominant interpretation of revelation about the preexisting forms of humanity.  I know there are some though who see it as a two stage (so far) rather than a three stage process, with intelligences being interchangeable with spirits.  My memory is they point to Joseph Smith using the terms interchangeably and the language of scripture suggests we were adopted by God and thus became his spirit children, but it’s been awhile since the last time I saw this type of discussion, so I may have misremembered.

However, the tripartite version seems to be the much more popular, taught in Primary to RS/PH.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teachings-harold-b-lee/chapter-2?lang=eng

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/doctrine-and-covenants-student-manual-2017/chapter-36-doctrine-and-covenants-93?lang=eng

 

Otoh, right above this quote is commentary that shows the ambiguity because “spirit” gets applied to “intelligence” rather than a separate ‘material’.

Does that mean intelligences are similar to atoms that put together are physical bodies?  It is “intelligence” that is the refined, more pure spirit matter?  If so, then hasn’t God formed our eternal personalities, etc by choosing what intelligence building blocks he used to organize us?  If so, are we really that independent as actors?

Or is something else being suggested here?

Here’s another that uses intelligence and spirit interchangeably, that suggests our spirits are eternal (and thus being begotten by God means adopted):

Here is a nonChurch website and therefore nonofficial discussion about the tripartite model, including how it developed.

https://bycommonconsent.com/2009/04/15/tripartite-existentialism/

This is cool! This means there’s a good chance that we actually don’t have a literal Father and a Mother in Heaven from whom we’ve inherited Godlike attributes and divine destinies. Move over Family Proclamation and make way for gay temple marriages since being a male and female is no longer of any eternal consequence! Heaven may turn out after all to be nothing more than a unisex neuter world. I guess our resurrected male and female reproductive organs will be nothing more than nonfunctional biological vestiges, kind of like the knobs at the base of our spines where our distant ancestors used to have tails.

Edited October 10, 2025 by teddyaware

[JVW]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

It is, however, an LDS teaching.  And probably the current dominant interpretation of revelation about the preexisting forms of humanity.  I know there are some though who see it as a two stage (so far) rather than a three stage process, with intelligences being interchangeable with spirits.  My memory is they point to Joseph Smith using the terms interchangeably and the language of scripture suggests we were adopted by God and thus became his spirit children, but it’s been awhile since the last time I saw this type of discussion, so I may have misremembered.

However, the tripartite version seems to be the much more popular, taught in Primary to RS/PH.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teachings-harold-b-lee/chapter-2?lang=eng

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/doctrine-and-covenants-student-manual-2017/chapter-36-doctrine-and-covenants-93?lang=eng

 

Otoh, right above this quote is commentary that shows the ambiguity because “spirit” gets applied to “intelligence” rather than a separate ‘material’.

Does that mean intelligences are similar to atoms that put together are physical bodies?  It is “intelligence” that is the refined, more pure spirit matter?  If so, then hasn’t God formed our eternal personalities, etc by choosing what intelligence building blocks he used to organize us?  If so, are we really that independent as actors?

Or is something else being suggested here?

Here’s another that uses intelligence and spirit interchangeably, that suggests our spirits are eternal (and thus being begotten by God means adopted):

Here is a nonChurch website and therefore nonofficial discussion about the tripartite model, including how it developed.

https://bycommonconsent.com/2009/04/15/tripartite-existentialism/

Haha wow, that article is wild. So this "tripartite" thing that I referred to as "pipeline" started with Brigham Young. 

Quote

Each believed in viviparous spirit birth. That is, a resurrected and glorified man and women would somehow conceive a spirit which grew in the “womb of the celestial female” to use the Prattian parlance. Young believed that spirits were formed from spirit element which was analogical to physical matter. This spirit matter was not intelligent and if a spirit merited perdition, it was recycled to create new spirits.

I see that back then they were attempting to reason out why, if God gave birth to spirits, and has perfect foreknowledge, God birthed the devil instead of skipping him or recycling his "intelligent" matter. Well, good news, Brigham Young also espoused a bunch of other fun stuff that people still believe in like Adam-God theory, blood atonement, and polygamy. Even the idea of an infinite period of time to repent and a sort of "reincarnation" concept applied to the plan of salvation wherein you keep recycling through the plan until you become a Jesus and then a Father has roots in Brigham Young. I'm part of a pretty hardcore FB group that believes in all of this stuff and has plenty of receipts from the early brethren to prove their doctrine.

If I was a betting man, I'd bet my life savings that I have always been a spirit, even if there ever was a time in which I was not God's presence. That's how much I'm not into the cultural idea of the tripartite model. I think the theological underpinnings are more barebones than our evidence that sealing and Celestial marriage is a true doctrine (which really, we only have half of section 132 to back that one up).

So somehow, even though we went from intelligences -> spirits, the matter that formed our spirits was not intelligent and could be recycled, even though we believe that all matter is intelligent. I've heard people interpret that verse in Mosiah about how we are less than the dust of the Earth as the dust having intelligence and obeying God when He tells the dust to do something, and since the dust is perfectly obedient we are less than it. Yet somewhere there is unintelligent matter that was used to create a "body" for my spirit? Meh.

Everything has always been the way that it is. We are eternal beings. We have no end, which nobody seems to have a hard time grasping. We have no beginning, which everyone has an impossible time grasping, so now we have this rooted LDS cultural belief (at least in Utah) that our spirits had a beginning, but will have no end. It just doesn't make any sense to me.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, teddyaware said:

This means there’s a good chance that we actually don’t have a literal Father and a Mother in Heaven from whom we’ve inherited Godlike attributes and divine destinies.

I don’t know why you think parents who adopt their children are not “literal” fathers and mothers, especially given we can become adopted children of Christ and there is nothing in the scriptures that somehow diminishes that status of being children of Christ as not as real or as valuable as the status of being children of God.  

Also we don’t know if the adoption process in eternity is similar or completely different than what we do here on earth, I don’t think assumptions like it is not as deep and intimate of a connection should be made.  Do we not believe that with God all things are possible?  Why put limits on him he has not placed himself?

We believe there is a fundamental spiritual change when we become the adopted children of Christ, why wouldn’t that be part of adoption by Father and Mother.  Perhaps adoption spiritual means them sharing a part of their spirit elements with us so we are materially changed into beings of greater agency and ability to use our basic eternal nature, thus inheriting their attributes and destinies.

And just as when God forgives, purifies and sanctifies us through our repentance and acceptance of Christ’s atonement we become as if we had never erred or sin, why not with spirit adoption we become as if we were never not the sons and daughters of God?  How more literal of parenthood could you get?

Btw, I like the tripartite idea better, but have no problem if it has something’s wrong.

My guess is either description isn’t close to reality because we can’t comprehend what actually occurs.

Edited October 10, 2025 by Calm

[Calm]

28 minutes ago, JVW said:

our spirits had a beginning, but will have no end. It just doesn't make any sense to me.

Our physical bodies have a beginning, but no end in your view, yes?

[marineland]

On 10/10/2025 at 1:28 PM, ZealouslyStriving said:

Who created evil?

If God, why would he,as an omniscient, omnipotent Being of love, create evil ?

I think God did not create evil. Satan became evil in his rebellion.

[marineland]

On 10/10/2025 at 1:45 PM, teddyaware said:

2) Doctrine and Covenants 93 makes it perfectly clear that all intelligences, no matter how advanced in knowledge or rudimentary they might be, have agency. The inherent agency and preservation of the agency of all intelligences is so indispensably important that there is no point to existence unless intelligences have agency.

So intelligences, before becoming spirit children, already had agency to choose
between good and evil?

[teddyaware]

38 minutes ago, marineland said:

So intelligences, before becoming spirit children, already had agency to choose
between good and evil?

Yes! According to Doctrine and Covenants 93, intelligences can’t even exist without agency. How could intelligences be called intelligent without being able to think?

[ZealouslyStriving]

47 minutes ago, marineland said:

I think God did not create evil. Satan became evil in his rebellion.

Why did God, in his omniscience, create a being He knew would rebel and complicate things?

[Calm]

1 hour ago, marineland said:

So intelligences, before becoming spirit children, already had agency to choose
between good and evil?

Not as fully as we do now, which is not as full as we will have, but we had some agency. 

[teddyaware]

On 10/10/2025 at 5:41 PM, Calm said:

I don’t know why you think parents who adopt their children are not “literal” fathers and mothers, especially given we can become adopted children of Christ and there is nothing in the scriptures that somehow diminishes that status of being children of Christ as not as real or as valuable as the status of being children of God.  

Also we don’t know if the adoption process in eternity is similar or completely different than what we do here on earth, I don’t think assumptions like it is not as deep and intimate of a connection should be made.  Do we not believe that with God all things are possible?  Why put limits on him he has not placed himself?

We believe there is a fundamental spiritual change when we become the adopted children of Christ, why wouldn’t that be part of adoption by Father and Mother.  Perhaps adoption spiritual means them sharing a part of their spirit elements with us so we are materially changed into beings of greater agency and ability to use our basic eternal nature, thus inheriting their attributes and destinies.

And just as when God forgives, purifies and sanctifies us through our repentance and acceptance of Christ’s atonement we become as if we had never erred or sin, why not with spirit adoption we become as if we were never not the sons and daughters of God?  How more literal of parenthood could you get?

Btw, I like the tripartite idea better, but have no problem if it has something’s wrong.

My guess is either description isn’t close to reality because we can’t comprehend what actually occurs.

Good, logical thinking… But I believe those who imagine the idea that impregnation and birth are going to continue after the resurrection is only a later doctrinal development, with no scriptural backing, are in error. I say this because the process of the creation of spirit bodies, in which eternally progressing intelligences may dwell, is set forth with a fair degree of plainness in Doctrine and Covenants 132. And at least as far as I’m concerned, it’s not easy for Yours Truly to ignore or reject a doctrinal concept if it’s thoughtfully presented in the scriptures and spelled out with some specificity. Here are just two of the verses that support the concept of the creation of organized spirit bodies in heaven in which uncreated intelligences may dwell and progress.

 

Doctrine and Covenants 132:19

19 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant, and it is sealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of promise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the keys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto them—Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths—then shall it be written in the Lamb’s Book of Life, that he shall commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of THE SEEDS forever and ever.

Doctrine and Covenants 132:30

30 Abraham received promises concerning his seed, and of the fruit of his loins—from whose loins ye are, namely, my servant Joseph—which were to continue so long as they were in the world; and as touching Abraham and his seed, out of the world they should continue; both in the world and out of the world should they continue as innumerable as the stars; or, if ye were to count the sand upon the seashore ye could not number them.

Edited October 13, 2025 by teddyaware

[Calm]

1 hour ago, teddyaware said:

Good, logical thinking… But I believe those who imagine the idea that impregnation and birth are going to continue after the resurrection is only a later doctrinal development, with no scriptural backing, are in error. I say this because the process of the creation of spirit bodies, in which eternally progressing intelligences may dwell, is set forth with a fair degree of plainness in Doctrine and Covenants 132. And at least as far as I’m concerned, it’s not easy for Yours Truly to ignore or reject a doctrinal concept if it’s thoughtfully presented in the scriptures and spelled out with some specificity. Here are just two of the verses that support the concept of the creation of organized spirit bodies in heaven in which uncreated intelligences may dwell and progress.

 

Doctrine and Covenants 132:19

19 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant, and it is sealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of promise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the keys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto them—Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths—then shall it be written in the Lamb’s Book of Life, that he shall commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of THE SEEDS forever and ever.

Doctrine and Covenants 132:30

30 Abraham received promises concerning his seed, and of the fruit of his loins—from whose loins ye are, namely, my servant Joseph—which were to continue so long as they were in the world; and as touching Abraham and his seed, out of the world they should continue; both in the world and out of the world should they continue as innumerable as the stars; or, if ye were to count the sand upon the seashore ye could not number them.

Galatians 3

Quote

So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christhave clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed,and heirs according to the promise.

Abraham’s seed here is not by physical lineage, but spiritual…through faith.

[JVW]

On 10/10/2025 at 5:45 PM, Calm said:

Our physical bodies have a beginning, but no end in your view, yes?

They certainly do have an end, I'll be experiencing it in 1 day to 50 years or less from now (God willing). As far as resurrected bodies are concerned, they are described as distinctly different from physical bodies. One is "flesh and blood" the other is "flesh and bone". One is temporary and corrupted in God's image, one is what the logical result of a "celestial pregnancy" would be. Presumably, following my logical train of thought, an exalted body will have an end because it had a starting point, but maybe the resurrected body we inhabit has always existed and this mortal body is in the celestial bodies image? We know next to nothing about celestial bodies so we could argue any which way we want about them.

I am actually too tired to go down this deep doctrine rabbit hole. I have never heard of anyone debating anything about post-resurrection physical bodies before so I don't have much else to say (unprompted) than what I wrote above. What do you think? Is this even related to the eternal nature of our spirits? Joseph Smith said our spirit is eternal, I believe him.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, JVW said:

this mortal body is in the celestial bodies image? We know next to nothing about celestial bodies so we could argue any which way we want about them.

Why would we need to come to earth to gain a physical body and the ability to control it if we had one already?  Not challenging your idea, but exploring it.

Edited October 13, 2025 by Calm

[marineland]

On 10/12/2025 at 2:21 PM, ZealouslyStriving said:

Why did God, in his omniscience, create a being He knew would rebel and complicate things?

Free will for his creations.

[marineland]

On 10/12/2025 at 2:20 PM, teddyaware said:

Yes! According to Doctrine and Covenants 93, intelligences can’t even exist without agency. How could intelligences be called intelligent without being able to think?

"I think therefore I am".

But what evil could these intelligences act upon?

[teddyaware]

1 hour ago, marineland said:

"I think therefore I am".

But what evil could these intelligences act upon?

Evil thoughts are tantamount to actions in the sight of God. This is why we will be judged for our thoughts, not just for our actions. You also appear to be presuming that the world in which intelligences exist is somehow a very simple one with very little ability to act, when for all we know the state in which intelligences exist may, it it’s own way, be just as complicated, sophisticated, nuanced and chaotic as is our present state of existence.

Edited October 13, 2025 by teddyaware

[Calm]

7 hours ago, marineland said:

Free will for his creations.

How can it be free will when he was programmed to rebel?  Serious question, want to understand your reasoning, not challenging as illogical.

Edited October 14, 2025 by Calm

[InCognitus]

On 10/12/2025 at 11:33 AM, marineland said:

I think God did not create evil. Satan became evil in his rebellion.

And you later said....

6 hours ago, marineland said:

On 10/12/2025 at 12:21 PM, ZealouslyStriving said:

Why did God, in his omniscience, create a being He knew would rebel and complicate things?

Free will for his creations.

What's the difference?  If God created Satan out of nothing and God (being omniscient) knew that Satan, using the free will that God bestowed upon him, would become evil in his rebellion, how is that different than God creating evil?