The true reason why you left the church?

[sibling]

Each Parable has a double meaning and where talking about the Kingdom of Heaven.

That's not true, Zakuska.

Hard to argue with Benji's iron-clad logic there.

[Zakuska]

Benji,

Christians, on the other hand, are motivated by gratitude. They are so overwhelmed and in awe that the God of the universe would take on human flesh and die for them that they can do nothing else but overflow with good works. They know that their works are filthy rags when compared to what the sinless Christ did. They also know that their works don't earn them a single thing with God. Jesus paid the price fully and there is nothing that anyone can add to it.

Why did Paul and the Early Saints work? Why did they lay their lives down to the lions etc. etc.? Was it out of gratitude? Because they where "overwhelmed and in awe that they could do nothing but good works"? Did they do it because "their works where filthy rags before God" and that it didn't "earn them anything with God"? Or where they just total idiots?

Lets take a look!

Heb 10

32 But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions;

33 Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used.

34 For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took ajoyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.

35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.

Heb 11

32 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:

33 Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained apromises, stopped the mouths of lions,

34 Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.

35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:

1 Cor. 9: 17

17 For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.

18 What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.

19 For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.

Apparenlty in Benji's Bible Paul and the Bibilical Saints weren't Christians!

And whats even funnier is a minute ago Christians didn't do any works at all according to Benji.

Here are some more verses to ponder!

1 Cor. 3: 8

8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.

1 Cor. 3: 14

14 If any man

[redman]

I believe that in some cases, the claimed reasonings for leaving (BoA is false, Joseph Smith practiced polygamy, Adam-God, BoM is false, etc), are secondary reasons used to bolster one's true reasons for leaving. It makes one feel better about a difficult decision, if you can project your failings onto Joseph Smith.

Good grief. So if I believe that the Book of Mormon is false, that is just a minor "secondary reason" for leaving?

We have been told again and again by the prophets that it is either all true or all false. There are many, many people like me who have not been offended, have led a "righteous" LDS lifestyle, and are not lazy people looking for a way out. The opposite is true. We want the Church to be true, and when we find that it is not, we leave.

Your accusations are silly. People leave for real, deep, heartfelt reasons (such as knowing in your heart that the church is not what it claims to be). Why do you have to assume that we are just petty sinners looking for excuses to jump ship?

[Tarski]

Your accusations are silly. People leave for real, deep, heartfelt reasons (such as knowing in your heart that the church is not what it claims to be). Why do you have to assume that we are just petty sinners looking for excuses to jump ship?

Because the existence of anyone leaving for sincere reasons just doesn't jive with the whole plan of salvation story. They absolutely must believe you have evil reasons. It is axiomatic that no one can leave for a good reason.

The very existence of such a person mitigates against the truthfulness of the church.

[Dale]

I left the LDS. I continue to believe in the Book of Mormon. I joined the Community of Christ. I don't accept some LDS doctrine. I find I have a lot in common with LDS. I believe people can leave for good reasons & bad reasons. I have testimonies by Ex-Community of christ who I know have been decieved by anti-Restoration trivia. On the other hand I have had doubts & questions about Mormonism, but never have been anti-Mormon. Yet I have had legitimate doubts due to reading anti-Mormon material. The trivia effected the deveopement of my beliefs.

I believe in working with persons I feel leave the LDS for bad reasons. I much prefer a person to stay LDS than I would want them out.

I have found enough answers to satisfy me. I read anti-Restoration material on a regular basis & my faith is growing stronger. But I know of no one answer that forced me to believe. At times I was faced with two good perspectives on an issue & had to make an imperfect decision about what I believed.

If somebody left the LDS over sin & that does happen that would be a wrong reason. A lot is considered sin in the LDS that would not in mine, or many other churches. Some sin is universally agreed upon as sin. So every Ex-LDS leaves over something LDS see as sin you are in a no win situation because sin is a matter of belief as to what consitutes, or doesn't constitute sin.

The trivia issues are difficult & I see answers for each on the popular list. But siding with an answer, or not is a choice. I like answers I know others reject because they don't like the answer.

THE BIG THING THAT HELPED ME TO REMAIN IN THE RESTORATION TRADITION WAS I FOUND OUT ANTI-MORMONS RELIGIONS WERN'T TRUER THAN THE LDS, OR COMMUNITY OF CHRIST TRADITION. I CAME TO DISBELIEVE WHAT THEY SAY AGREED WITH THE BIBLE. (Acts 17:11) I KNEW MUCH OF WHAT THE CRITICS SAID ABOUT RESTORATION HISTORY, DOCTRINE & PRACTICE WAS UNTRUE. REJECTION OF ANSWER DIDN'T MEAN THEY WERE ANY MORE LOGICAL OR HAD BETTER REASONING FACULTIES THAN RESTORATION BELIEVERS.

[hondo]

works are necessary but not sufficient.

[Zakuska]

Not according to Benji. Works are completely divorced from the equation.

Actually...

Grace is important but not sufficient.

Works are important but not sufficient.

Faith is important but not sufficient.

It takes all three working together to reach exaltation.

[Brentley]

LIke what persuasion exactly? It justs makes it easier if I understand if I'm talking to a Catholic or a Presbyterian...

I do not believe in denominations, koakaipo. I'm just a follower of Jesus.

Benji

No you are not. If you were a follower of Jesus you would not be afraid to ask Him questions. Also if you were a follower of Jesus you would accept anything he would say and you said that you wouldn't... "Nothing could ever convince me to accept that the LDS church is true".

This is why you have never received a manifestation that the gospel is true. It is because you admit that you would never accept it. Have you not yet realized that you cannot understand the full meaning of the Bible unless you have received what it means by the spirit? I have already told you this and that it is the same with everything. You see, men can understand the Bible or really almost anything, any way they want to but with the spirit we can truly understand the truth of Christ message and all things. Remember, the Holy Ghost manifests the truth of all things.

You are not a follower of Christ and you do not have faith in Christ. You are a follower of Christian beliefs and only have faith in yourself. You have yet to discover that Christ gospel is not manifested by the scribe but the author Himself, who it Jesus Christ. You seek to much of your own understanding of what the Bible means and have not yet once asked the one who leads it.

Why are you so scared to ask God? Have you ever truly set down and contemplated why it is so hard for you to ask God which church is true and which church does Christ sit at the head of? So far you have not shown me how you are a follower of Christ but only the Bible. You won't even ask God which church is true because you have made up your own understanding of what the Bible says. I fear for you. I never thought it was possible for someone to be able to stare eye to eye with God and deny His church even if He has shown it unto you but you have confirmed that there are those who do and will.

I do not think you are a bad person but it does not make sense that you think that we are a cult and stuck on narrow false beliefs but you are the one that is wrapping your beliefs upon the Bible instead of Christ who made those who wrote it, gave them words to speak, and atoned for those who denied it.

Your loving brother,

Brentley Waters

[ave maria]

LIke what persuasion exactly? It justs makes it easier if I understand if I'm talking to a Catholic or a Presbyterian...

I do not believe in denominations, koakaipo. I'm just a follower of Jesus.

Benji

No you are not. If you were a follower of Jesus you would not be afraid to ask Him questions.

I dunno, Brentley.

You might find as the years pass that it's a problematic proposition to tell someone else that they are not a follower of Jesus Christ.

I don't recommend it.

[Dale]

A book I got from a friends Church is entitled Will The Real Heretics please Stand Up by David Bercot. http://www.scrollpublishing.com Grace & works were mixed by historical Christianity in that they believed obedience was essential to salvation. Just because obedience is essential to salvation doesn't make it any less of a gift.

[Boniface]

Not according to Benji. Works are completely divorced from the equation.

Actually...

Grace is important but not sufficient.

Works are important but not sufficient.

Faith is important but not sufficient.

It takes all three working together to reach exaltation.

Zak, I don't know anyone else, but I think it really takes a combination of the three, wouldn't you? I think that works are indeed important, as they show obedience to God, as well as show by example that we truly believe. However, we CANNOT *WORK* our way into Heaven. I think Benji is really correct on the issue, though possibly not wording it in the best way. From what I understand, this is pretty close to what the LDS church teaches also, isn't it?

[Brentley]

Hey Zakuska, isn't it every time Paul mentions work he is talking about the work of the law, meaning the Law of Moses? Pretty much every time Paul mentions we need not work he is saying that the Law of Moses has already been fulfilled by Christ and that we do not need to use work of the Law of Moses because Christ has fulfilled it.

At least I think that is what it means?

Also if anyone thinks that Paul does not say that we need works, not only does he say that charity is above all things but he also uses this scripture. I love this scripture...

1Thes 1

3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

Notice he says remembering which in other words means having faith continually. He also says 3 things of which I consider works.

1 work of faith- well this is obviously work

2 labour of love- this is work as well

3 patience of hope- and for us humans, this is defiantly work

So if someone could, explain to me how Paul does not say that we need works again.

[Brentley]

LIke what persuasion exactly? It justs makes it easier if I understand if I'm talking to a Catholic or a Presbyterian...

I do not believe in denominations, koakaipo. I'm just a follower of Jesus.

Benji

No you are not. If you were a follower of Jesus you would not be afraid to ask Him questions.

I dunno, Brentley.

You might find as the years pass that it's a problematic proposition to tell someone else that they are not a follower of Jesus Christ.

I don't recommend it.

Sorry, he has just not shown me or anyone how he is a follower of Christ. He has only shown that he is a follower of the Bible, himself, anti's, and all types of other men. But not yet once has he shared that he knows these thing by Christ. he only believes these things from what prophets have said that new Christ and wrote them down in a book or what other men that claim to know the truth.

[ave maria]

LIke what persuasion exactly? It justs makes it easier if I understand if I'm talking to a Catholic or a Presbyterian...

I do not believe in denominations, koakaipo. I'm just a follower of Jesus.

Benji

No you are not. If you were a follower of Jesus you would not be afraid to ask Him questions.

I dunno, Brentley.

You might find as the years pass that it's a problematic proposition to tell someone else that they are not a follower of Jesus Christ.

I don't recommend it.

Sorry, he has just not shown me or anyone how he is a follower of Christ.

Has not shown you "or anyone?"

That's a rather sweeping statement.

I have no reason to doubt his profession to Christian faith. I suspect others here would say the same.

In fairness, we all realize you're very young.

[Zakuska]

Boniface... Notice how I said it takes all three to be Exalted? To recieve a full Reward. Im not looking for second place.

You are correct we cannot "work our way into heaven." But the lack of works surely will keep us out. The Lord said...

Matt 25

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

35 For I was an ahungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

39 Or when saw we thee asick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the bleast of these my cbrethren, ye have done it unto me.

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Thats an aweful lot of work required of his followers!

Even the theif on the cross did a work to get in. He had a change of heart and repented. He had to reach out and accept the gift. God didn't just roist him out of his house and force him into heaven. God put out his hand the theif saw it and accepted it.

I like how CS Lewis puts it... in Mere Christianity

"The Bible seems to clinch the matter [of faith and good works] when it puts the two things together in one amazing sentence. The first half is 'work out your own salvation with fear and trembling'--which looks as if everything depended on us and our good actions: but the second half goes on. 'For it is God who worketh in you'--which looks as if God did everything and we nothing. I am afraid this is the sort of thing we come up against in Christianity. I am puzzled, but I am not surprised. You see, we are now trying to understand, and to separate into watertight compartments, what exactly God does and what man does when God and man are working together. And, of course, we begin by thinking it is like two men working together, so that you could say, 'He did this bit and I did that.' But this way of thinking breaks down. God is not like that. He is inside as well as outside: even if we could understand who did what, I do not think human language could properly express it. In the attempt to express it, different Churches say different things. But you will find that even those who insist most strongly on the importance of good actions tell you that you need Faith; and even those who insist most strongly on Faith. tell you to do good actions. At any rate that is as far as I go."

Or as Paul says...

Philip 2

9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is aLord, to the glory of God the Father.

12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

14 Do all things without murmurings and adisputings:

15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

16 Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.

17 Yea, and if I be offered upon the sacrifice and service of your faith, I joy, and rejoice with you all.

18 For the same cause also do ye joy, and rejoice with me.

[asbestosman]

Your accusations are silly. People leave for real, deep, heartfelt reasons (such as knowing in your heart that the church is not what it claims to be).  Why do you have to assume that we are just petty sinners looking for excuses to jump ship?

Because the existence of anyone leaving for sincere reasons just doesn't jive with the whole plan of salvation story. They absolutely must believe you have evil reasons. It is axiomatic that no one can leave for a good reason.

The very existence of such a person mitigates against the truthfulness of the church.

I think it might be possible. I think some people are better able to discern truth than others. Honestly, I think there are many things to take into account, and I think it might be possible for someone to leave and be sincere. I do not, however, recommend such a course of action. In any case it's not my place to judge people as sinners or saints.

I'm still wondering if redman's horns have fallen off yet. He did have horns, didn't he?

If you never had horns, then you never had a true testimony.

If you horns fell off, then you are a son of perdition (sorry Boniface ).

I wonder what it means when a Mormon only has one horn?

[Zakuska]

They found all the Unicorns!!!!!

[Tarski]

LIke what persuasion exactly? It justs makes it easier if I understand if I'm talking to a Catholic or a Presbyterian...

I do not believe in denominations, koakaipo. I'm just a follower of Jesus.

Benji

No you are not. If you were a follower of Jesus you would not be afraid to ask Him questions. Also if you were a follower of Jesus you would accept anything he would say and you said that you wouldn't... "Nothing could ever convince me to accept that the LDS church is true".

Brently, you are really quite amazingly precious. Quite innocent.

Have fun in the temple when you get older. You might be surprised. Of course you will never be as surprised as I was (things have changed since then).

[koakaipo]

Benji--

I'm not trying to be nosey(sorry if that sounded a little nosey though), it's just that I'd get a better angle mainly how you approach scripture and what is emphasized,etc. All different religious persuasions do this-I mainly was asking because of your points about grace in relation to works. I have thoughts regarding grace a bit different than some ideas here personally, but I was interested in where you were coming from specifically. I personally believe there's alot of scriptures in the Bible that allow people to construct different arguments on this subject. For instance, Paul's characterization of the "law" is distinct from other characterizations of the law in other areas of the NT. Just curious.

[Benji]

You are not a follower of Christ and you do not have faith in Christ.

All right, Brentley, now you're showing your true colors. You're putting yourself in the place of God which the Bible strongly warns against. I think am done with this conversation.

Benji

[Zakuska]

Oh... just when the conversation was getting good you run away!

[Brentley]

You are not a follower of Christ and you do not have faith in Christ.

All right, Brentley, now you're showing your true colors. You're putting yourself in the place of God which the Bible strongly warns against. I think am done with this conversation.

Benji

I'm putting myself in the place of God? Please take this from the heart because I am quite confused.

If I remember correctly you basically were the one that was saying how you knew by the Bible that the LDS church was false and that you did not need Christ permission to understand that. I myself understand that I cannot understand these things without Christ or Heavenly Father. I am the one who is relying on Christ here, how does that make me look like I'm putting myself in Gods position?

You are the one that obviously thinks that you have all you need with the Bible and those such things but you keep on denying the manifesting power of Christ and it almost seems as if you are relying that power upon yourself and your own knowledge and understandings. I know that I am young and I'm sorry if I have caused any offense.

If you could please teach me. If I am wrong let me know where I have erred. I have learned quite well that if you want somebody to learn from their mistakes you must show them where they have erred and explain it to them. Not just throw it in their face and say such things as. "That's a rather sweeping statement", "In fairness, we all realize you're very young", and "All right, Brentley, now you're showing your true colors. You're putting yourself in the place of God which the Bible strongly warns against. I think am done with this conversation."

How do you expect me to understand? What colors, how is what I said a "sweeping statement" besides the reason that others see him differently, how am I putting myself in the place of God, ect...?

You are not explaining this to me. If you truly cared and felt that I was young why would you seek to leave me in the dark? Especially you Benji, you have even said that you have come here to help us and you can't even help me understand your allegations against me. What is that I have said that has made me seem as if I am putting myself in the place God? Am I not able to receive His answers and His spirit? Do you seek to deny me of these blessings?

You know very well that the things I have said to you have only been from knowing you from about 10 posts, so why do you take so much offence from what I have said to you? You must know that I have only said those things compared to everything that you have said so far. So far you have shown that you do not follow Christ because in order to follow Christ you must seek Him first and in order to seek Him you must trust in Him and except Him no matter what. So far you have denied that process. This is how I have come to the conclusion that you are not a follower of Christ. It is impossible to be a follower of Christ if you cannot even except what he would say even if it were something as simple as the LDS church is true. If you truly think, the only reason that you could believe that the LDS church isn't true from what you have shown me about you so far is through "you" and "your" interpretations of

[Hacedor Costoso]

Brentley said:

I have questions to all of you.

1What would you do if you prayed tonight if the LDS church is true and then heard the wispherings of the still small vioce declare it to you?

I probably wouldn't pray - since I'm no longer a true believer. However, if I were convinced to pray and got a feeling or "whisperings" of the still small voice as you call it - I would most likely chalk it up to intuition.

You see Brentley - I still get the exact same "whisperings" that I used to identify as the "still small voice". Except now I realize it has nothing to do with God - all people in all cultures in all religion have feelings that they sometimes rely upon.

2. What if an angel came down and told you that the LDS church was true and God has called you to join.

First, I would bang my head against a wall to make sure I wasn't seeing things. Then I would ask this being to show him/herself to many other people - along with me for confirmation. Then I would ask for proof that he/she had the proper message. Then I would make darn sure that this being spoke the truth. How would I do that? Don't know. That's the problem. This would all be subject to this "being" being from God.

3. What if God himself cam down with Jesus Christ and said "this is my Son Jesus Christ and you shall join his church which is the LDS church?

Without a reliable concept of God - I'd have no idea what to do or who to believe. Since I'm not a believer - I'd probably make sure he proved to me that he was "God" - that he created the earth and that he was in charge of me.

There have been many self proclaimed "Gods" who people follow.

Give me an objective standard by which to judge any of the above situations and I'd do so.

But - these are some pretty heavy what ifs that will more than likely, NEVER happen.

Hacedor

[Brentley]

Brentley said:

I have questions to all of you.

1What would you do if you prayed tonight if the LDS church is true and then heard the wispherings of the still small vioce declare it to you?

I probably wouldn't pray - since I'm no longer a true believer. However, if I were convinced to pray and got a feeling or "whisperings" of the still small voice as you call it - I would most likely chalk it up to intuition.

You see Brentley - I still get the exact same "whisperings" that I used to identify as the "still small voice". Except now I realize it has nothing to do with God - all people in all cultures in all religion have feelings that they sometimes rely upon.

2. What if an angel came down and told you that the LDS church was true and God has called you to join.

First, I would bang my head against a wall to make sure I wasn't seeing things. Then I would ask this being to show him/herself to many other people - along with me for confirmation. Then I would ask for proof that he/she had the proper message. Then I would make darn sure that this being spoke the truth. How would I do that? Don't know. That's the problem. This would all be subject to this "being" being from God.

3. What if God himself cam down with Jesus Christ and said "this is my Son Jesus Christ and you shall join his church which is the LDS church?

Without a reliable concept of God - I'd have no idea what to do or who to believe. Since I'm not a believer - I'd probably make sure he proved to me that he was "God" - that he created the earth and that he was in charge of me.

There have been many self proclaimed "Gods" who people follow.

Give me an objective standard by which to judge any of the above situations and I'd do so.

But - these are some pretty heavy what ifs that will more than likely, NEVER happen.

Hacedor

Thanks for the reply.

So far it seems that you are the type that if Christ were to return you would go get your evidence testing and see if it were truly Him. That's why it is better to know Him spiritually because if you don't, the day He returns you are going to feel quite foolish.

Btw, there is a difference in the whisperings of the still small voice and your own voice.

Your loving brother,

Brentley Waters

[randyc]

If I remember correctly you basically were the one that was saying how you knew by the Bible that the LDS church was false and that you did not need Christ permission to understand that. I myself understand that I cannot understand these things without Christ or Heavenly Father.

Then you should learn to use your brain. MOst theists seem to think they have them for a reason. By the way, did you get per,ission to understand that you can not understand? Did you get permission to understand the permission?

I am the one who is relying on Christ here, how does that make me look like I'm putting myself in Gods position?

Well, let's see...

You are not a follower of Christ and you do not have faith in Christ.

Hey, there mister Big Head! Who put you in a place to determine such things? Actually, I told Alpha a while back that he was not a believer because signs did not follow him, so I guess you possibly could be justified in this statement but I doubt it from what I read.

What is that I have said that has made me seem as if I am putting myself in the place God? Am I not able to receive His answers and His spirit?

No, you're not. You have no system by which to determine what his answers are.

You know very well that the things I have said to you have only been from knowing you from about 10 posts, so why do you take so much offence from what I have said to you?

Maybe if you read the first clause of your question over again...

So far you have shown that you do not follow Christ because in order to follow Christ you must seek Him first and in order to seek Him you must trust in Him and except Him no matter what.

That's an awefully limiting opinion for you to expect others to agree with it, especially if you calculate in the assumption that "trust in Him and except Him no matter what" means that you have to not use your brain and instead use a method of determining which you can not determine is from God.

If you truly think, the only reason that you could believe that the LDS church isn't true from what you have shown me about you so far is through "you" and "your" interpretations of