The true reason why you left the church?

[Brentley]

In this thread I am trying to find the true reason why you first left and then maybe after you answer a truthful answer you can explain your experience after leaving and why you stayed gone. Please do not take offense to this. I am just trying to understand and am sharing with you what I have understood so far. Correct me if I

[ave maria]

In this thread I am trying to find the true reason why you first left and then maybe after you answer a truthful answer you can explain your experience after leaving and why you stayed gone. Please do not take offense to this. I am just trying to understand and am sharing with you what I have understood so far. Correct me if I’m wrong.

I myself do not believe that all people leave the church for the same reason that they stay away from the church. I believe that in many cases they might leave for a small reason and for those who had a testimony maybe a sort of big reason and then turn it into a bigger reason. Pretty much I believe that after they leave they try and find bigger reason to stay away, they turn it in to a much greater deal.

Such as if someone left because they didn't agree with a certain doctrine they will leave the church and try and find more and more things wrong with the church so that they can feel completely comfortable staying away. They want to be right.

It is like a divorce. If you and your husband/wife decide to get divorced over a little reason or those who are in love a pretty big reason you try and find more and more reasons that you want to leave so that you can build up a dead wall so that you will never return. You want to make sure your right because you could never leave with a soft heart if you are wrong. So that why so many people bring up everything they can to put against their husband/wife when getting a divorce when really it would work a whole lot more effectively if they just listened.

Such as for the church. I believe that many of you here would still be strong in the church today if you just would have listened. Some of you try to prove that what you have felt was fake. It is the same with married couples who want a divorce, it makes them feel that they can understand it more and gives them a better feeling to leave, they want to hide away what they have lost.

I have also found that the one’s who are most eager to leave in a relationship are often the one’s causing the problems. Meaning, if you are looking for a reason to leave the church, you will find it. It is the same with everything. A person is always right in their own eye’s (that is a scripture). I see that as meaning, you can prove anything anyway you want to prove it with the knowledge of men. Look at science projects and the court of Law. The more you study on what you want to prove the better you can prove it or prove that it is not. Such as with the Mickeal Jackson case. The lawer obviously studied a lot to be able to prove that Mickeal Jackson was not guilty but in all reality we know that he was. That is just how science works, if you really want to prove something false or true, you can do it with the knowledge of men.

Well I don’t want to get to in to this right yet because I don’t want it to get to personal. But does this make sense and do you agree? Why have you left the church. Can you see how my theory has worked when you left the church?

I have to go to work but I hope to see some truthful responses when I return.

Your loving brother,

Brentley waters

It wasn't the true church.

[charity]

Ave wrote: "It wasn't the true church.

Could you tell us how you know this? Thanks.

[Tarski]

I myself do not believe that all people leave the church for the same reason that they stay away from the church. I believe that in many cases they might leave for a small reason and for those who had a testimony maybe a sort of big reason and then turn it into a bigger reason. Pretty much I believe that after they leave they try and find bigger reason to stay away, they turn it in to a much greater deal.

Interesting beliefs. What is the basis for your belief? Do you just fantasize that this must be the case?

I wonder what you believe about people that leave the Church of Scientology or of those that leave the Jehova's Witnesses. What about people that leave one religion to join another one (like Mormonism)?

Why do some people stop believing in flying saucers and alien abductions? Do you think they could possibly talk sense into thier old UFO nut buddies? Wouldn't they demand (like charity) to know how you know that flying saucers aren't real?

[Abulafia]

Hi Brentley

Thankyou for asking. I got my quad out yesterday and found a list of my beliefs which I had made prior to leaving the church.

None of them required me to be LDS though the LDS belief and my own value and belief system were compatable in many instances.

On much of the stuff, I just stopped believing it. I tried to look at all the evidence and explore my own beliefs on history, culture and doctrine and I couldn't come to terms with it.

I really like the mormon church, but there are parts of its culture, doctrine and history that I cannot embrace as my own. That goes for parts of the bible also

Here's some of the list of what I do believe.. (it was written 15 or so years ago)

I believe in Jesus that he was the best example of a human being and as such I should strive to live his values and standards

I believe in endeavouring to overcome my own weaknesses in accordance with the value system of the saviour

I believe in the blessings of repentence.

I believe in being loyal, honest and true to myself and others

I believe in being chaste and having a virtuous mind

I believe in keeping my body and mind healthy by giving them uplifting things to do

I believe in eternal progression

I believe in strong family values

I believe in a judgement in love

I believe in a premortal existence

I believe I had a spirit before this earth that is eternal

I believe in the principles of forgiveness, love, wisdom, goodness, grace and mercy.

I believe that the glory of god is intelligence

I believe Joseph Smith was a man with faults just as I

I believe all men were born to succeed

I believe in the principle of free agency

I believe that God will judge all men, and that my judgements are not accurate

I believe God is lenient to the innocent

I believe God is patient and tolerant with the sin-bound soul

I believe in service to others in wisdom

[Scottie]

Back in Feb of this year, my co-worker mentioned something about the pre-1990 temple ceremony. He told me the jist of the penalty oaths and for some reason, it flipped a switch in my mind. The church was all of a sudden sooo much more cultish now.

I wanted to learn more about the pre-1990 ceremony, so I started to research. I found a lot more than the temple ceremony. Much of the initial research was VERY disturbing. The fact that JS had pacticed polygamy was a shocker. Like a lot of others, I thought that was just a anti-Mormon lie. I was always taught in SS that BY was the only polygamist. Until I found out it was true on an apologist site. The cult-meter raised a little more. The church was now manipulating facts to hide their shady past.

The more I researched polygamy from both critic and apologist points of view, the more it seemed as though the apologist defense was weak. To this day, nobody has been able to answer all my questions. It always ends up being, "Well, we don't really understand it, but we just have to pray to get a witness."

To me, if I try and fit it into the scenario that God commanded polygamy, there are SOOO many holes. I just can't reconcile it in my mind. However, if I try and fit it into the scenario of JS and the "Good Ol' Boys" network abusing the propetic calling to gain sexual licence, it fits quite neatly.

** Edit to add: Polygamy, although a big reason, is NOT the only reason I left the church. MANY of the critics claims have not been answered adequately. I'm sure the apologists will come back with their list of BoM names and Bountiful and Nahom. Athough impressive, they just aren't enough to convince me that the church is true.

As far as being out of the church now...When I first left, it was very, VERY hard. Taking something that has been an integral part of your life, perhaps even the very foundation of your life, and ripping it out is extremely painful. It put a lot stress on my marriage. Now, about 6 months since my apostacy, I feel more at peace than I ever have. My wife and I have been able to reconcile our differences and our marriage is on the mend. I have not found another religion, nor do I want to at this point. I am living life for me. I am not bound by the guilt that I felt for not meeting what the LDS Church (or probably more accurate, my parent's) told me God expected of me. I wasn't perfect, in fact FAR from it and it caused a LOT of inner turmoil.

I don't have to live to those unrealistic demands anymore. I can actually commit a sin and know that I don't have to answer for it. The amount of guilt that I felt in the past has drastically reduced. I can honestly say that I am happier out of the church than I was in it. I know most of the TBM's are shaking their heads thinking that I'm just in denial. Nobody could POSSIBLY be happy outside the church. But, it's true, I am happier.

Now, does that mean I've gone off the deep and and I'm having orgies with drugs and such? No. I pretty much live my life and keep the same standards that I have grown up with. I may have a cup of coffee now and again, and I don't feel one bit guilty about doing so. I am now 5% richer every month (I still let my wife pay tithing on 1/2 of my income since she is a stay at home mom and I consider that to be her job) and I can donate to a charitable organization that more closely follows what I want.

This is just a small essay on my exit. There is actually MUCH more to it than this, but it gives you a feel for it.

[CLee]

I left because I hold it to be self evident that the church can't be true if its founder was a fraud, and I am convinced that Joseph Smith was a fraud.

I stay away because the church isn't true.

I had no

[TheRyeGuy]

It is like a divorce. If you and your husband/wife decide to get divorced over a little reason or those who are in love a pretty big reason you try and find more and more reasons that you want to leave so that you can build up a dead wall so that you will never return.

Interesting that you make this comparison as I divorced and left the church very closely in time.

My divorce from my wife didn't work that way at all. We're much better friends now than we ever were married. My divorce from the church however has been different. My wife could accept that I was different - the church could not.

My ex-wife was compassionate and understood that we didn't fit each other's needs anymore. The church could not. My wife understood that she shared some blame. The church could not.

But that's not your question. Why did I leave the church? Because I never had a testimony of its truth. I only stayed because it was easier to stay than to leave even though I knew I wasn't being true to myself.

[charity]

Scottie wrote: "I don't have to live to those unrealistic demands anymore. I can actually commit a sin and know that I don't have to answer for it. The amount of guilt that I felt in the past has drastically reduced."

Were you tongue in cheek with that statement? Were you really saying that what you are doing now may have been considered a sin in your former belief system and is not now considered a sin in your present belief system? If you were joking, please add a smiley to let us know.

BECAUSE if you are literally saying that now you can commit sin and not feel guilty, boy, are you in trouble! 2 Ne 28:8 8 And there shall also be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be merry; nevertheless, fear God

[Refuge]

I didn't feel loved, wanted, or accepted. I came to realize that I had near alienated my family and changed the essence of who I am to fit into this cookie-cutter mormon mold...and I have fought too long and too hard for what I have and who I am. Who I am is exhibit A in the case that God is good, and I'm not about to stifle the struggle just to appear to be some sunny-faced "there's not a thing wrong in my world" Utah Mormon. What I've been through, and the person my life has made me, I want to keep. I like who I am.

I felt like I was losing myself.

I also got tired of being told I was spiritually inane every time I questioned something. How many times does your character have to be attacked by complete strangers for simply disagreeing with a principle before you get tired? I took three years of it.

Not to mention, the constant claim that "we think for ourselves", yet whenever you did the same and came up with a question, you got hammered for "not following the prophet". There is a certain woman on another site who upon seeing me present and speaking (and I could be encouraging someone) will do her best to raunch on me because she doesn't feel that I follow the prophet to her liking. What?

How about the outcasts? Aren't there supposed to be none of them in Zion? But I know, the Saints aren't perfect, and this is why you don't really talk about stuff like this, because they aren't ready to hear it. Girls wearing pants to church and getting funny looks which make them feel awkward. The grunge kid who no one talks to. The people struggling HARD not to be gay, just to be accepted. The women of color who NEVER date (unless someone from Ghana happens to be in the ward...and they be trying to carry you home ASAP, LOL). The list goes on.

To put things in a large nutshell, I simply do not feel that the LDS church is condusive to diversity. Sure, people may look different, but it is very hard to ACT differently in this church. There's a personality standard that you must meet, or else suffer socially. People will ostracize you if they think you are a threat to their testimony. And to some, you are only as good as your testimony, all that love and friendship will evaporate if you question.

It often made me wonder, is this of God? Would Jesus abandon me for doubting, for questioning, for looking or acting different? My belief is no. Would he abandon me for wanting to finally accept my weirdness, and just be who life has shaped me to be? My belief is emphatically no. In the end, I know that God loves me. Any place that doesn't validate that, I don't need to be there. And sadly, I was given the message all too often that I wasn't good enough for God because of my past, because of my background, because of things long gone, or things I had no control over. This is not of God. Not at all.

Also, I have to add that Abulafia's post also mirrors many of my thoughts, well said.

[Refuge]

I believe that many of you here would still be strong in the church today if you just would have listened.

That is one of the most bigoted statements I have ever read. So you're telling us that we would be fine if we just shut down mentally and did what we were told?

[suem]

It is like a divorce. If you and your husband/wife decide to get divorced over a little reason or those who are in love a pretty big reason you try and find more and more reasons that you want to leave so that you can build up a dead wall so that you will never return. You want to make sure your right because you could never leave with a soft heart if you are wrong. So that why so many people bring up everything they can to put against their husband/wife when getting a divorce when really it would work a whole lot more effectively if they just listened.

Let's see... I left my ex because I could not handle all the negativity anymore. He has extreme personality issues. I believe he needs some long term psychological help and perhaps some medication. Oh, there is the fact that he started cheating on me 5 months before I moved out and then lied to me, the counselor, his parents, and my friends and had ALL of them believing him and assuming that *I* was the one causing the problems, leaving me to feel like I was going insane. Why do I stay away? Same reasons. All the counseling and talking in the world will not fix the problems until he decides to see himself for who and what he is and make the steps to alter himself. He wants me back. He has been courting me (it is the only term that fits), he asks me out on dates (I have never gone), the issues are still there. He still refuses to acknowledge his own stuff. And because of that (even though we share a beautiful daughter) I refuse to put myself and child back in a negative environment.

Such as for the church. I believe that many of you here would still be strong in the church today if you just would have listened. Some of you try to prove that what you have felt was fake. It is the same with married couples who want a divorce, it makes them feel that they can understand it more and gives them a better feeling to leave, they want to hide away what they have lost.

I think my reasons for leaving my ex would pretty much parallel why I left the church. The church has extreme issues. There are too many lies and white-washings and half-truths and cover-ups of the history. I felt like I was cheated on. My heart and soul were ripped out of my very being. I was left feeling violated and lied to. At the time, I was left with nothing.

I was over my ex before I actually moved out. OTOH, it took me years to get over the church.

I have also found that the one

[yaanufs]

Well somebody told me they didn't like my tie, so I took offence and decided to never go back.

Of course when asked about my reasons I had to have a better reason because no one really understood how much I was hurting over the tie comment so I researched polygamy, BofA, DNA, View of the Hebrews, temple changes, blacks and the priesthood, etc and used those as mere excuses to cover my real reason.

I mean it just sounded so silly to say that I stopped going to church because of my tie and I thought surely no one would believe that would actually be the reason, so I made some other stuff up to cover me.

Isn't that the same as everyone? Surely it must be.

[redman]

see my post entitled "what if you want to the church to be true, but you can't believe it anymore?"

the reasons for leaving the church are myriad, but it is my opinion that many that leave do so after thoughtfully coming to the conclusion, based on both feelings and reason, that the church is not true.

should people stay in churches/organizations/situations that are not true?

if a catholic said to you "i know the catholic church is a fraud, but i'm staying anyway," how would you respond? many mormons would think the non-believing catholic a coward.

the same goes for us that no longer believe. sticking around and pretending or forcing belief is not cool, so we leave.

[Tarski]

The more I learned about the following subjects the more I realized the world made better sense without assuming the church is true. The process was difficult but slow and steady. In the end, below, I give reasons for not being moved by counter arguments. To actually explain in detail how all of this fits and show that the church isn't true would take a book or two. Debaters can always depend on the fact that you aren't going to answer with 1000 pages of details. If you did they wouldn't read it anyway.

1. How the perceptual system works. How the brain forms beliefs and attributed expected explainations to unusual emotions, dreams, or perceptions.

2. Altered sates of consciousness induced by (1) lack of sleep (2) drugs (3) epilepsy (4) sleep paralysis (5) fasting (6) meditation/prayer (7) spontaneous anomolous states.

3. The relation of biological form to biological function. Evolutionary biology.

4. Philosophy and logic. Epistomology. Occam's razor. What constitutes knowledge.

5. Thinking about why I am sure that other religions aren't true. Experience listening to thier debating style.

6. All of the feelings and joys that I used to attribute to the holy ghost did not disappear after I decided in a scientific/phychological explanation of those feeling. I realize most people get feelings and insights, they just haven't been taught to attribute these to the Holy Ghost. Is is just part of what the human brain can experience. Scientists do study the neurology and psychology of religious experience and everyday spiritual/joyful feelings.

Why am I not moved by the fact that some smart people believe? I was one of those people once. This is human nature. There are smart people (that I have debated) that beleive in Scientology, UFO abductions, ESP, Atlantis, levitation, and more. Debating them is formally just like debating Mormons, the arguments have a similar form. "How do you know!" they demand. "But then how do you explain this" the intone. They accuse me of being overly scientific and blind to the big (magical) invisible world. It is like a fellow I know that thinks that the street magician David Blaine has real extraordinary powers. EVEN AFTER I EXPLAIN HOW THE TRICK IS DONE HE RATIONALIZES AND REFUSEs TO STOP BELIEVING. How can I explain that? He is just so moved by this personality and the tricks. He somehow just needs to believe.

[Scottie]

Charity, I guess a better way to say it would be that I can actually commit what I once believed was a sin and know that I don't have to answer for it. Such as drinking coffee. I no longer view that as a sin.

And, for what it's worth, quoting BoM scripture to me has ZERO impact.

[Platypus Man]

EVEN AFTER I EXPLAIN HOW THE TRICK IS DONE HE RATIONALIZES AND REFUSEs TO STOP BELIEVING.

I don't want to change topics at all, but...Are you talking about him levitating? How is it done? I have always wondered.

[Hacedor Costoso]

Brentley said:

In this thread I am trying to find the true reason why you first left and then maybe after you answer a truthful answer you can explain your experience after leaving and why you stayed gone. Please do not take offense to this. I am just trying to understand and am sharing with you what I have understood so far. Correct me if I

[marvmax]

god is my refuge;

Your story is truly sad. As a church we fall so far short of the way we should treat others. I think your story is one that happens far more than we like to admit. However, while we need to treat others as they are the whole concept of the gospel is that we can be born again and we do need to be made into new creations in Christ. CS Lewis explains it well in Mere Christianinity.

When I was young and rebellious I used to do things just to see what kind of rise I could get out of people. It really doens't matter what you wear to church, as long as you are there. As I grow older I find myself becoming more and more conservative and I hope I am not the one offending people who are different although I know that I am not as empathetic as I should be. However, I think it funny that sometimes people will do things or dress in outrageous ways and then act offened when they think people are responding to them in a way that they seem to be trying to elicit.

[koakaipo]

I've seen all reasons why people leave personally. I think motivations for joining or staying are similar. All sorts of reasons. No magic formula.

Religion is a mixed bag alot of the times-you get alot good things, and alot of things that aren't so good alongside the good. Some people feel it's okay to have the two together, sometimes people don't believe there is a down side at all, some people think the down side outweighs the good side, and some people just don't buy it period.

I've known people who have joined the church for the community and values aspect-I've known people who've left because of that. I've known people who've joined because of the beliefs-known people to leave because of them. Sometimes people are raised in the church, sometimes they don't really question or reconsider what they are doing until later on in adulthood. Seen that happen.

So, to me, it's all over the board really. Why people stay and leave or believe or don't can be for many reasons.

[Kmshrkx]

Reading JS's history, there is no way he is a prophet of God. Also, the way he "translated" the BoM is very suspect.. Head in a hat... Give me a break.

[cacheman]

In this thread I am trying to find the true reason why you first left and then maybe after you answer a truthful answer you can explain your experience after leaving and why you stayed gone. Please do not take offense to this. I am just trying to understand and am sharing with you what I have understood so far. Correct me if I

[cshaw]

I grew up in a "Jack Mormon" house where we never went to church because of the way my parents were treated in the past by active members. I had some frustrating experiences with some of the members which continued to push me far away, to the point that I became an athiest after College.

Overtime, things changed for me. I realized that I had to look past the poor examples of some members and look to the teachings instead. Today I go to church regularly. I don't go to church to make friends, nor to look for social acceptance. Rather, I simply go to worship and learn with my family. Sadly, my parents have no interest in the Church to this day.

cshaw

[Benji]

Hello Brentley,

I was raised in a TBM family. My dad was the ward clerk when I was a kid and my uncle is currently a bishop. I was always a very inquisitive child. The first question I remember asking around age 7 or 8 was about polygamy and the answer I got from my dad was, "Well the church used to do that but we don't anymore. You're too young to understand right now so don't worry about it." His answer left me feeling very dismissed and the idea that polygamy was ever a commandment seriously bothered me. As I got older I continued to ask more questions. Here is a dialogue I had with my Sunday School teacher as a deacon:

Me: Who made God?

My teacher: His Father

Me: Who made him?

My teacher: His Father

Me: Who made him?

My teacher: His Father

Me: Who made him?

My teacher: His Father

Me: Who made him?

My teacher: His Father

This did not make sense to me logically and my questioning continued. As a teacher, I had a conversation with my dad about why black people were denied the priesthood. He told me about the war in heaven and how blacks were less valiant in the war which is why their skin is darker. I think that was the final straw for me. Everything had been building for years and now I was 14 years old with the ability to articulate how I felt, along with the will to say I do not believe the Mormon church is true. About 5 years later I finally had my name removed from the records after the home teachers would not stop bothering me. It was around this time that my curiosity grew as to why my parents even joined the Mormon church in the first place (they were both converts and met at a church dance). I decided to do some research on Mormonism from the Public Library (This was in 1995, before the internet was as big as it is now). I found a book called Wife No. 19 that absolutely blew my mind. It is the autobiography of Brigham Young's 19th wife, Ann-Eliza Young. Her firsthand account of early Mormonism was heartwrenching. Here is what is written on the title page of the book:

WIFE No. 19, OR THE STORY OF A LIFE IN BONDAGE, BEING A COMPLETE EXPOSE OF MORMONISM, AND REVEALING THE SORROWS, SACRIFICES AND SUFFERINGS OF WOMEN IN POLYGAMY.

Also, here is the very last paragraph of the 605 page book:

"But one thing is certain. If one voice, or one pen, can exert any influence, the pen will never be laid aside, the voice will never be silenced. I have given myself to this work, and I have promised before God never to withdraw from it. It is my life mission; and I have faith to believe that my work will not be in vain, and that I shall live to see the foul curse removed, and Utah - my beloved Utah - free from the unholy rule of the religious tyrant, - Brigham Young."

I always thought Mormonism was a little strange and there were things that didn't quite add up for me but I never knew any of this stuff. Her book chronicles some horrifying accounts of what it was like to grow up in Utah while Brigham Young was in charge. By the way, He was 75 and she was 25 when they were married. Brigham forced her into the marriage by threatening to destroy her brother's business if she refused. That's just one of the many things from the book that is very revealing about the true nature of Brigham Young.

As my search for truth continued I learned about all the other dirty little secrets that you never hear growing up in the LDS church. These include the following: The original temple ceremony and the changes to it in 1990; Joseph and his many wives, how he acquired them from married men, and then lying about them to Mormons; the Kinderhook plates; the numerous changes to the BOM; the BOA issue; plaigerism in the BOM; blood atonement; racist speeches by Brigham Young; The Mountain Meadows Massacre; the connection between freemasonry and the temple ceremony; the numerous first vision accounts; and finally the DNA issue. It became clear to me that the LDS church was not only a little strange and untrue, but significant parts of its past were downright disturbing.

All of this was very overwhelming and it seemed like my entire life was based on a lie. I tried to tell my dad about some of the things I had discovered but he would not hear any of it and immediately wrote it all off as "anti-mormon material".

Eventually I became a Christian and discovered that Mormonism is just a counterfeit version of the true gospel, very similar to the Jehovah's Witnesses and Christian Scientists (incidentally all three were formed in the 1800's). It became very clear that Joseph Smith was a brilliant con-man who was very able to manipulate and deceive people. He must have been extremely charismatic. Brigham Young picked up where Joseph left off and continued the deception. Mormonism flourished in Utah because anyone who joined the church in those days had to come to "Zion". Also, it was so isloated and anyone who tried to leave in those days would be "killed by the indians" (chapters 9 & 16) according to Ann-Eliza young in Wife No. 19.

So, this is my story of how and why I left Mormonism. I now have a desire to help people coming out of cults. The freedom and life in Christ I now experience is something I never had in Mormonism (John 10:10).

Benji

[rameumptom]

I believe many (not all) people leave the Church because of one or several of the following reasons:

1) Offended by a member or teaching (one man left the Church because Joseph Smith misspelled his name!)

2) They have grown apart from the Church, partially due to differing views and activities.

3) They choose to live a life of sin, and it is easier to do it without the guilt the gospel invariably places in one's life.

4) They feel overstressed by the requirements and commandments. Similar to Stephen Robinson's wife in "Believing Christ", where she was trying to save herself. Instead of understanding our true role and Christ's true role in our lives, they give up. Being a non-Mormon definitely would be easier than trying to live perfection within a misperception of the LDS Church (which, alas, many in the Church do have).

I believe that in some cases, the claimed reasonings for leaving (BoA is false, Joseph Smith practiced polygamy, Adam-God, BoM is false, etc), are secondary reasons used to bolster one's true reasons for leaving. It makes one feel better about a difficult decision, if you can project your failings onto Joseph Smith.

For example, the recently well-publicized excommunication of the Australian member, who recently wrote an anti-Mormon book. He's miffed at being exed for adultery, when he so wanted it to be over apostasy. The apostasy was a secondary reason to ex him, and definitely a secondary reason for his leaving - as he was on his way out from living a sinful life, anyway.