The true reason why you left the church?

[charity]

Benji, if all your doubts started with the "Who made God" question, your thinking went off track way back then. Let's see. "Who made your father? You grandfather? Who made him? Your great-grandfather. Who made him? Your great-great-grandfather." What is so illogical about that?

I am sure you know that most of the issues you raised are really non issues. If you continue to cling to them, it is only for the purpose of bolstering what you had predetermined was you decision. That is really sad.

[Benji]

I believe many (not all) people leave the Church because of one or several of the following reasons:

1) Offended by a member or teaching (one man left the Church because Joseph Smith misspelled his name!)

2) They have grown apart from the Church, partially due to differing views and activities.

3) They choose to live a life of sin, and it is easier to do it without the guilt the gospel invariably places in one's life.

4) They feel overstressed by the requirements and commandments. Similar to Stephen Robinson's wife in "Believing Christ", where she was trying to save herself. Instead of understanding our true role and Christ's true role in our lives, they give up. Being a non-Mormon definitely would be easier than trying to live perfection within a misperception of the LDS Church (which, alas, many in the Church do have).

I believe that in some cases, the claimed reasonings for leaving (BoA is false, Joseph Smith practiced polygamy, Adam-God, BoM is false, etc), are secondary reasons used to bolster one's true reasons for leaving. It makes one feel better about a difficult decision, if you can project your failings onto Joseph Smith.

None of these reasons apply to me or anyone I know who has left.

For example, the recently well-publicized excommunication of the Australian member, who recently wrote an anti-Mormon book. He's miffed at being exed for adultery, when he so wanted it to be over apostasy. The apostasy was a secondary reason to ex him, and definitely a secondary reason for his leaving - as he was on his way out from living a sinful life, anyway.

He wrote the book before being excommunicated.

Benji

[Benji]

Benji, if all your doubts started with the "Who made God" question, your thinking went off track way back then. Let's see. "Who made your father? You grandfather? Who made him? Your great-grandfather. Who made him? Your great-great-grandfather." What is so illogical about that?

I am sure you know that most of the issues you raised are really non issues. If you continue to cling to them, it is only for the purpose of bolstering what you had predetermined was you decision. That is really sad.

Charity,

If you read my entire post, you would see that there are NUMEROUS reasons why I left Mormonism. My question about who made God was just one of the first things that got the ball rolling. Additionally (and also in my post), I now have enjoy the freedom and life in Christ that I never experienced in Mormonism.

Benji

[sidewinder]

Getting back to your example of divorce, if one party divorcing the other is analogous to one party leaving the church then yes, there may be cases where the leaving party places more blame than is called for on the church. But isn't it interesting how the church likes to place all the blame on the party filing for divorce?

Such as for the church. I believe that many of you here would still be strong in the church today if you just would have listened. Some of you try to prove that what you have felt was fake. It is the same with married couples who want a divorce, it makes them feel that they can understand it more and gives them a better feeling to leave, they want to hide away what they have lost.

That sounds a lot like what you'd hear from the damaged spouse who's getting served with the papers, "If only you would have listened to me and did what I said you would never had become unhappy in our marriage. You are only pretending that you never really loved me (I can't handle the possibility that I did something wrong). You are only running away and trying to justify your faults, you still love me but are too weak to change.

It works both ways.

[Zakuska]

Yep Freedom to do what every you want even If God has told you not to.

[will2believe]

I believe that in some cases, the claimed reasonings for leaving (BoA is false, Joseph Smith practiced polygamy, Adam-God, BoM is false, etc), are secondary reasons used to bolster one's true reasons for leaving. It makes one feel better about a difficult decision, if you can project your failings onto Joseph Smith.

rameumptom, I assume that your belief is backed up by good evidence in those cases. Otherwise, it would seem a little judgemental.

[charity]

Benji, if you had read my post, you would have seen that I said the one issue started it, and then I continued to say that most of the things you listed, which meant I read them, are totally non issues.

[Benji]

Benji, if you had read my post, you would have seen that I said the one issue started it, and then I continued to say that most of the things you listed, which meant I read them, are totally non issues.

Charity,

Actually, the polygamy issue came before my question about who made God. And to dismiss everything else in my post as a "total non-issue" shows that you are not really taking those things into consideration .

Benji

[Zakuska]

Justin Marytr and the Early Christians had that same question clear back in the 2nd century. They felt it best not to ask the question, because it led to absurdity and Apostasy.

[Benji]

Yep Freedom to do what every you want even If God has told you not to.

Paul speaks against this in Romans 6.

Benji

[Benji]

Justin Marytr and the Early Christians had that same question clear back in the 2nd century. They felt it best not to ask the question, because it led to absurdity.

The Mormon answer does lead to absurdity which is my entire point.

Benji

[Zakuska]

He also does in Romans 13 in which he places them under the 10 commandments, summarized by the 2 great commandments.

[Zakuska]

What is absurd about infinity?

What IS absurd is Buddah floating out in space and suddenly sneezing the universe out his left nostril. (Ie A God who is set in cement as Christianity teaches)

[Boniface]

The reason I left the church was that I could no longer stay and be true to myself, or my God. There were several doctrines that, though I don't think they are spiritually damaging doctrines, I could never embrace them as true. They include:

- The Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith (though I do think the Book of Mormon does contain some truth)

- Eternal Progression

- The idea that God was once a man

- The church's denial of original sin

- The church's denial of the Communion of Saints

- Lack of real presence in the Sacrament

- The idea that everyone should just close their eyes and follow the prophet

- Sacrament meeting talks that focussed less on lessons from the Scriptures and more on talks given by General Authorities. Talks that spoke less of the teachings and sacrifice of Jesus Christ and more of the works and teachings of Joseph Smith.

I could go on, but you get the picture. About a month before I left, I truly felt in my heart that the church was not what it claimed to be. I feel it was the right choice, though a difficult one, to leave. I do not for a minute think that Latter-day Saints are doomed because of their church, but I can no longer make myself stand by as what I feel is not the truth of God is proclaimed. I have since felt liberated and strengthened by the spiritual power of the mass. I have also found great peace with the fact that no one religion has a monopoly on truth -- or on God.

[HiJolly]

I have also found great peace with the fact that no one religion has a monopoly on truth -- or on God.

This TBM has to agree with that! I SOOOO wish everyone agreed with us.

HiJolly

[Enish-go-on-doshling]

The moment I realized I didn't believe the church was true anymore was when I sat down reading Jesus' teachings in the Gospels and 3 Nephi alongside the last several General Conference Ensigns to make sense of what we are taught to do when individual principal collides with obedience.

Seems to me this is the crux of what the war in heaven was about, with Lucifer and the bad guys on the side of obedience and Jesus and good guys on the side of principle. However, there is a never-ending call in the church for obedience to the leaders. Primary teaches "follow the prophet" and Joseph F. Smith declared that "obedience is the first law of heaven". The closest I find Jesus ever came to demanding obedience was his statement "If ye love me, keep my commandments", but he also reduced all the commandments to only two implying that nothing else mattered if we loved God and our neighbor. The only use of the words "obey" or "obedience" that I could find in any of the Gospels has to do with astonishment that the elements obey Jesus and nothing to do with obedience to leaders. Jesus excoriated the Pharisees for worrying about strict adherence to rules and ignoring the weighty issues. There are times for obedience, but it should never be sacrificed for doing what one belives is right. There are unfortunately many examples where the church is on the wrong end of the spectrum from Jesus' teachings while advocating obedience to the church, such as:

1) The church supports Nazi Germany and excommunicates members that speak out against Nazism.

2) Bednar's recent earring talk is eerily similar to Lucifer's plan as laid out in the BoA. Without explaining why wearing more than one earring in one ear is an issue for God, he advocates blindly following the church leaders on such minutia even to the point of altering relationships with those we care about if they will not also adhere.

3) Hinkley's GC talk "War and Peace" concludes in essense that although the church doesn't advocate war, it is more important to follow your leaders than to speak out against such things.

4) Mountain Meadows Massacre. Even if BY did not order it, he set the stage for demanding obedience for to a call for murder and local church leaders exploited it.

There are seemingly endless examples in the church

[charity]

I don't see how you can write off Jesus telling us to keep his commandments. And his summary of the two differen types of commandments doesn't say that they are no longer in force.

I have never been told to obey something that was against the laws of God. You can't get any higher principles that that.

[suem]

What is absurd about infinity?

Nothing is absurd about infinity, what is absurd is the Mormon (or really any christian religion) concept of god in relation to infinity.

What IS absurd is Buddah floating out in space and suddenly sneezing the universe out his left nostril.  (Ie A God who is set in cement as Christianity teaches).

How is that any more absurd than any other creation story? A woman being made out of the rib of a man?

As I have heard many a believer say before, "God works in mysterious ways, we don't know how he did it"... so on that note, maybe god sneezed the earth into existence, how do you know he didn't?

Also how is any of this mythic stuff any harder to believe than, as Enish-go-on-doshling said, "disappearing gold plates"?

To me they all fall in the same category.

Tarski, I would love to hear the explanations for David Blane's tricks. I love watching him. All of his tricks leave me dumbfounded, although I know there has to be an explanation.

[ericbo33]

I had my epithany when I read The Double-Bind

After many years of life as a TBM, I was very unhappy and self-loathing. Even at many of my most righteous times I felt unhappy inside. The Double-Bind article described my life perfectly. It was a major breakthrough for me.

[Zakuska]

Who said a woman was made from a rib?

Brigham Young had this to say:

it is said by Moses the historian that the Lord caused a deep sleep to come upon Adam and took from his side a rib and formed the woman that Adam called Eve

[Enish-go-on-doshling]

I don't see how you can write off Jesus telling us to keep his commandments.  And his summary of the two differen types of commandments doesn't say that they are no longer in force.

I have never been told to obey something that was against the laws of God. You can't get any higher principles that that.

Charity,

My above post was an honest answer in response to what I thought was an honest question. But since you take issue with it, I will ask you: Is obedience to Earthly governmental leaders part of "God's laws"? what about when their actions lead to the torture and deaths of thousands or millions of people? This is what has been advocated by the church in both the cases of Nazi Germany and in Hinckley's "War and Peace" talk. Obedience to ecclesiastical authority was clearly a contributing factor in the Mountain Meadows Massacre. That kind of following doesn't happen by accident. The 9/11 hijackers felt they were following what they believed to be "God's laws" - no principle higher than that as you say. However, I think they would have got a very different answer about whether their actions were sanctioned by God if they had more strongly weighted loving their neighbor relative to obedience.

Bednar advocates wearing one earring simply because "the prophet said so". Is that really part of "God's laws"? What about when it leads to rifts in relationships as it did in his example? I see no way to reconcile that with what Jesus taught.

[Tarski]

EVEN AFTER I EXPLAIN HOW THE TRICK IS DONE HE RATIONALIZES AND REFUSEs TO STOP BELIEVING.

I don't want to change topics at all, but...Are you talking about him levitating? How is it done? I have always wondered.

That is the most disappointing of all. What he does on the steet and what he does on camera are actually diffent. One is a camera trick the other is less impressive and is well known:

http://www.ellusionist.com/david-blaine.htm

[Tarski]

I believe many (not all) people leave the Church because of one or several of the following reasons:

1) Offended by a member or teaching (one man left the Church because Joseph Smith misspelled his name!)

2) They have grown apart from the Church, partially due to differing views and activities.

3) They choose to live a life of sin, and it is easier to do it without the guilt the gospel invariably places in one's life.

4) They feel overstressed by the requirements and commandments.

[suem]

Who said a woman was made from a rib?

Brigham Young had this to say:

it is said by Moses the historian that the Lord caused a deep sleep to come upon Adam and took from his side a rib and formed the woman that Adam called Eve

[Zakuska]

Genesis 2:20-22 (King James Version)

20And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.

21And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;

22And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

Gods ribs or Adams Ribs?

I Love the JOD... I also Love the Apoycrpha. Why not?