The true reason why you left the church?

[juliann]

Are you stating that you believe Jesus Christ never at any time established or organized His Church prior to the life of Joseph Smith?

This is your tired old way of avoiding the topic when you get backed into a corner. No one has ever said at any time in any place that there was not an original church. And you know that. But you have a pretty good track record of being able to derail any discussion with coy "questions" and ridiculous revisions. I'm not playing.

And you still have a major problem with a claim of apostolic succession that will not go away no matter how many rabbit holes you jump in.

[juliann]

The point is that the LDS Church believes in it's own form of "apostolic succession" in the sense that it believes all current leadership "succeeds" from the original twelve apostles at the time of Joseph Smith.

Do you believe that to be incorrect?

No it's not the point. Give us your list of successive "apostles" that your authority is derived from. Let's see it. You are the one making the claims. You put up the evidence. Let's see how logical it is.

[ave maria]

Are you stating that you believe Jesus Christ never at any time established or organized His Church prior to the life of Joseph Smith?

This is your tired old way of avoiding the topic when you get backed into a corner. No one has ever said at any time in any place that there was not an original church.

You just did.

I'm not playing.

You just did.

And you still have a major problem with a claim of apostolic succession that will not go away no matter how many rabbit holes you jump in.

I've read your Alice in Wonderland piece, and it wasn't even that good. Can you come up with some original imagery?

There's no more difficulty in claiming apostolic succession in the original Church than there is in the church that Joseph Smith organized. What informs your reason otherwise?

[ave maria]

This is your tired old way of avoiding the topic when you get backed into a corner.

For the record, juliann, I have never felt "backed into a corner" by you, or anyone else on this board, for that matter.

Nice try, though.

[ave maria]

The point is that the LDS Church believes in it's own form of "apostolic succession" in the sense that it believes all current leadership "succeeds" from the original twelve apostles at the time of Joseph Smith.

Do you believe that to be incorrect?

No it's not the point. Give us your list of successive "apostles" that your authority is derived from. Let's see it. You are the one making the claims. You put up the evidence. Let's see how logical it is.

I have yet to fully understand how your mind works; perhaps I never will.

Why is it to you illogical?

That, on its face, makes no sense to me.

[juliann]

Still waiting for your list of names in your apostolic succession. ::::tapping toe:::::

[juliann]

I have yet to fully understand how your mind works; perhaps I never will.

My mind works like this. I make a claim, I support it. You make a claim you support it.

Still waiting for the names.....

[ave maria]

I have yet to fully understand how your mind works; perhaps I never will.

My mind works like this. I make a claim, I support it. You make a claim you support it.

Still waiting for the names.....

That's called alternately (depending on whether you are Terry Warner or not), denial, or self-deception.

[ave maria]

Still waiting for your list of names in your apostolic succession. ::::tapping toe:::::

They are irrelevant to your argument, as your logic should instruct you.

[FlyByZoom]

One observation for me has been that nothing of the LDS faith is found in the Book of Mormon.

Nothing about the two priesthoods.

Nothing about the offices and callings in the Church.

Nothing about the Temple and Temple rites.

Nothing about sealings and eternal marriage.

Nothing about polygamy/polyandry.

Nothing regarding the current Church organization.

Nothing about Relief Society and Primary.

Nothing about missions/missionaries.

Nothing about 8 year old baptism.

Nothing about 12 year old ordination.

Nothing about the Church leadership organization.

Nothing about fast & testimony meetings.

Nothing about using water instead of wine.

Very little on the significance of Sacrament meeting.

In short, Jesus's visit to the faithful in America to bring them into the fold brought them nothing of what we consider "The Restored Gospel". Very next to nothing of what we know as Mormonism is reflected in the Book of Mormon.

And, why wouldn't Jesus have organized the Church and instituted practices and teaching such as the Church has today?

Pretty big disconnect, at least for me.

Bob

[charity]

FlybyZoom: I hve started down your list, and you have not found what there is in the Book of Mormon.

Nothing about the two priesthoods. Read in Alma, about priests, teachers, elders and high priests.

Nothing about the Temple and Temple rites. Jacob, Mosiah, Alam, Helaman, 3rd Nephi

Nothing about polygamy/polyandry. Jacob 2:27-30

Nothing about missions/missionaries. Alma and the four sons of Helaman

Nothing about 8 year old baptism. Moroni 8

I didn't do the whole list because I wanted to get on to other threads. But this should give you a start at finding out what is in the Book of Mormon.

[ave maria]

Nothing about polygamy/polyandry. Jacob 2:27-30

Last I checked, that passage condemned polygamy.

While it might technically be correct that it is about polygamy, it certainly doesn't teach or encourage it. Quite the contrary.

[charity]

Ave, you must have missed the discussion on the use of the word "otherwise" in the passage cited. You can catch the thread on one of the back pages. It was titled Jacob 2:30 and had the word exegesis in the topic title, I think.

[Bertram]

Hi,

Just returned from a beautiful day enjoying GOD'S Creation!

And on the first thread I discover ave maria ranting on in typical word-play and saying nothing constructive.

Curious though I now notice a peculiar sequence she has developed in typical "brainwashing"!

Don't use one attempt to answer a post...use "multiple" replies in quick succession with part responses and by hogging the thread you hope your flac will frighten off any timid posters with your "knowledge".

Fortunately she has many apt people in the other "corner"!

Then again is there a more logical reason for the lack of sane replies?..hmmmmm?

I can't recall the proper word for this mental aberration????...hmmmm?

Can someone answer this query?...which is more senior or authoritive?...APOSTLE or Vicar?

Is vicar an abbreviation for vicarious?

http://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?q...ar&qs_version=9

I deliberately used a "neutral" googler!

[Bertram]

Sorry,sorry,

I forgot to add this question in my last post.......please excuse me it must be my age!

Did ave maria ever tell us, according to the essence of this thread which she has freely responded to, WHY SHE LEFT THE TRUE LDS CHURCH?

I believe I know the real reason but I think that it is her perogative to enlighten us!

[charity]

I have never seen her reason.

[Bertram]

charity,

HHmmmmm..!

Don't suppose we ever will!!

Hard to defend?????

[Boniface]

Sorry,sorry,

I forgot to add this question in my last post.......please excuse me it must be my age!

Did ave maria ever tell us, according to the essence of this thread which she has freely responded to, WHY SHE LEFT THE TRUE LDS CHURCH?

I believe I know the real reason but I think that it is her perogative to enlighten us!

Probably for the same reason I left it. We both came to the conclusion after prayerful study that Joseph Smith, though likely a well intentioned man, was not a prophet. This ultimately leads one to the conclusion that if the church's founder is not what he says he was, the church he established isn't quite what it claims to be.

I am not trying to tell you that you are an un-Christian heretic - I am just answering your question why I (and likely why ave maria as well) left the LDS church.

[ink]

Sorry to derail (re-rail?) the discussion away from some fantastic notion of apostolic succession, and whether God really cares about such things, but here's my response to Brentley.

In this thread I am trying to find the true reason why you first left and then maybe after you answer a truthful answer you can explain your experience after leaving and why you stayed gone.

I could not resolve issues with the Book of Abraham. That was the first "true reason" why I left. It was not the only reasoon when I left (and when did I really *leave*?? or did the church leave *me*??)

I myself do not believe that all people leave the church for the same reason that they stay away from the church.

I think you are correct. It's a rational process to follow, isn't it? 1) Form a hypothesis and then 2) perform experiments to prove or disprove that hypothesis.

One needn't be steeped in all things apologetic before arriving at a conclusion that the church is false (just as the 6 discussions do not cover the entierty of "the new and everlasting gospel" before advising baptism).

You seem to be insinuating that this process is flawed....? That those who leave for one reason, and then attempt to validate that decision through eridition are somehow trying to bury their faces in the sand? (or, I could be reading too much into your post).

[Bertram]

Boniface,

Thank you for letting us know why you left the LDS Church and I appreciate your response BUT with all due respect it is virtually impossible for you, no matter how discerning you may be, to really respond on behalf of ANYONE!

RCor LDS!

Co-confessor or otherwise! ( there is an RCC "in-joke" that you may not be aware of.)

We know why you left the True LDS Church....but not why you "selected" the RCC out of the other 4000+* churches presently available for your choice throughout the World!?

*Rough estimate!

[ave maria]

I have never seen her reason.

Yes, actually, I've mentioned on more than one occasion that I left the LDS Church because I believed it to be in error, and not to be what it represented itself to be.

I've also said, again on more than one occasion, that I believe the Catholic Church to be the continuation of the church established by Jesus Christ during His earthly ministry, and don't believe there is compelling evidence for a "complete and total apostasy" of the original church.

My preference was/is to be part of the true and authentic Church of Jesus Christ as I recognize it. I respect that others will have differing views.

[Boniface]

Boniface,

Thank you for letting us know why you left the LDS Church and I appreciate your response BUT with all due respect it is virtually impossible for you, no matter how discerning you may be, to really respond on behalf of ANYONE!

RCor LDS!

Co-confessor or otherwise! ( there is an RCC "in-joke" that you may not be aware of.)

We know why you left the True LDS Church....but not why you "selected" the RCC out of the other 4000+* churches presently available for your choice throughout the World!?

*Rough estimate!

It's true, I can't respond for ave maria. However, my response was based on previous posts of hers that I have seen since joining this board. Of course, there may be differences, but I have gathered that ave maria and I left the LDS church for the same reasons.

I thought I had posted why I joined the RCC in a previous thread, but maybe I didn't. I was actually converted to the RCC about a month before I left the LDS church. It all happened at a very spiritually moving and inspiring Easter Sunday Mass at the Basilica of the Sacred Heart on the campus of the University of Notre Dame. I was going through a period of spiritual confussion when I walked in the basilica doors, but was at complete peace when I left. The death of Pope John Paul II sealed my conversion. It was so sad, yet so inspiring, to see his level of devotion to God, even on his deathbed. I have gone to Mass every Sunday since last Easter and have felt just as moved in each Mass since.

[juliann]

Sorry to derail (re-rail?) the discussion away from some fantastic notion of apostolic succession, and whether God really cares about such things, but here's my response to Brentley.

It is just another of Ave Maria's never ending lines that she can never substantiate. The board is littered with her imperial claims and complete and total lack of evidence.

Pretty pathetic that someone can base their belief in "apostolic authority" when they are completely unable to come up with even one name in that succession.

[juliann]

I have gone to Mass every Sunday since last Easter and have felt just as moved in each Mass since.

I am certain God is present in Catholic masses as I am certain he is present whenever he is petitioned. No matter what religion we choose, we make better neighbors if we follow the precepts religion teaches.

[Boniface]

I have gone to Mass every Sunday since last Easter and have felt just as moved in each Mass since.

I am certain God is present in Catholic masses as I am certain he is present whenever he is petitioned. No matter what religion we choose, we make better neighbors if we follow the precepts religion teaches.

I am in absolute agreement