Calm

I doubt that.

Just in case anyone wants to look more deeply into the Second Anointing, Mormonr has collected a lot of source material and summarized the info here: https://mormonr.org/qnas/5y13H/second_anointing I found this particularly interesting: —— Not sure this second query’s link will work. If it doesn’t, just type “calling and election” into the search bar and quite a few references will pop up that can be read to see if they give any enlightenment on the subject for you (speaking generally). https://bhroberts.org/archive?prod_records[query]="calling and election"

You will have to point that out rather than just slapping a label on it. It seems pretty straight line to me. Curious if you claiming the Church accepts the necessity of elective murder at times? That leadership views any abortion for any reason as elective murder?

Is there any way in your view to personally verify there is a God? If so, why couldn’t one use the same process to verify other things?

I think there is more than enough evidence they are not infallible (added: it’s in scripture as well as them admitting it from time to time plus obviously wrong comments, https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/Question:_Did_Joseph_Fielding_Smith_acknowledge_that_he_was_wrong_when_he_said_that_Man_would_never_walk_on_the_Moon%3F ). The question is, imo, how much God micromanages, if he does, the errors so it may only be trivial, little impact decisions that God keeps a hands off policy for or major, life altering, church culture altering errors that he allows (possibly to keep agency intact as much as possible) or somewhere in between, exactly where might even varied due to circumstances.

Yeah, I knew what it was referring to. I was being snide. Lumping in pro abortion with post natal killings is ridiculous though, by (I suspect extremely few if there are actually any) advocates of the idea or anti abortionists who are often trying to make pro choice advocates look like monsters.*** It’s a very different dynamic since the child can be removed without harm from the custody of its mother. Talk about ultimate parental rights. Post natal killing can occur through malnutrition and lack of access to healthcare, firearm access, lack of sufficient safety measures in car seats, etc by the way. (There are a number of avoidable reasons the US is choosing not to avoid for why infant and child mortality rates in the US are higher than most, if not all for some causes of comparable countries.) ***https://www.13newsnow.com/article/news/local/virginia/trump-debate-fact-check-virginia-governor-after-birth-abortion-ralph-northam/291-9bf4d577-863f-4f31-9e63-11c55cdada53?utm_source=chatgpt.com

Are we doing family photos? Here’s mine, what a coincidence we went to the same photographer…. (Sorry about the plagiarism, hit the limit, so tweaking only went so far)

But are they on the Church records as members?

You mean the SNAP cuts? Didn’t think it was that high.

I think that depends on the person. I do hold that position. My belief and trust in prophets has only grown with my knowledge that includes quite a few major mistakes imo. I can have strong disagreements with someone and still think they are wise, good people. My husband is one of them. Our political views are at times very different, yet I have never seen any reason to consider divorce because of it and I even still take his advice in many things and accept that in some areas it’s best he make the decision just as in other areas he has me make the decision as the better informed. Might see the leaders I believe as having made mistakes as having blind spots, iow human. I find there is a lot less anxiety having this position about my leaders than not because I don’t have to defend or try to find valid reasons for things I believe are wrong and then being concerned if I can’t find them. The Church is run on earth by humans like me even though God is overseeing it all. If God can work with them and still turn the Church into his great work to help mankind towards salvation even with their missteps, he won’t likely be casting me out as unworthy for the mistakes I have made. That is a very good reason in my view to stay committed and keep trying.

This is the definition that seems most applicable to the claim Sunstoned made. He can tell us if this is what he was thinking. Otoh, I do see “exmormon” now often expressed as an identity in many cases rather than simply a record keeping note (as in at one time attended Forest View Elementary and now I don’t…no identity attached to that as I was there less than a year, only thing I remember is my teacher and a girl stapled her finger in class, wouldn’t rate more than a line in my biography) and that does seem to entail more than just cutting a mental connection. But I would never use it this way without mentioning the definition I was giving it. I have seen a lot of people online mention their family as attending, but say they were never really into the Church, the basic implication (sometimes actually expressed) is they were never Mormon in their minds and therefore aren’t now exmormon.

I would like to see the logic demonstrating this is the most reasonable definition in this context as I find it hard to believe anyone here actually defines “exmormon” as “hangs out with other exmormons online and off socially” or some such thing anymore than one would define believing LDS as only those who hang out online with other believing LDS.

Sunstoned made a claim and the discussion that followed is in part about proving or disproving that claim, correct? If so, it’s best to start by asking what definition Sunstoned was using to see if the definition makes verifiable or not first and if so, verify it. Then argue if there is a more precise term for “exmormon” than what Sunstoned used… Scripturally speaking, it shouldn’t be shocking even if depressing for believers if there are more exmormons than believing LDS in the world. The Church of the Lamb of God numbers are supposed to be few (though if in comparison to the world’s population, millions are few).

Why was he even appointed then? (Reading the article now, looks like it will answer that for me)

Depends on how you define “fall”.

I would definitely agree we can’t make a complete explanation about this. Besides informing Moses about their existence, God tells him that’s it, he is not sharing more info on them. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/pgp/moses/1?lang=eng

Yep, they used to be much more willing to post speculation in church magazines back then as well as all sorts of advice (just check out the table of contents). Reasonable speculation following from what has been revealed, but it might still be inaccurate because of misinterpretation of what has been revealed imo.

Newly joined poster? The spam issue has been solved?

Decision paralysis…too many choices leads to no choice, very common. It was probably the biggest reason I rarely went out to eat once I realized I could not make just as good a meal as a restaurant if it was something besides waffles (better than any restaurant I have gone to) or chicken and dumplings (definitely as good as and much cheaper) and a few other dishes. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-power-of-parallels/202406/navigating-your-way-out-of-decision-paralysis#:~:text=Fear of judgment.,or could lead to criticism. I hate, hate, hate it when my husband says “whatever you want” (especially when it’s not really whatever I want since I love Asian and other cuisines he’s not that fond of).

Lol, the “I don’t think….” Usually that would be written without the return spacing, wouldn’t it? Lots of people leave off periods and are careless with capitalization these days, so I assumed that is what happened. My bad.

Just an fyi, but Ben Spackman iirc has pointed out that “many wives” is defined in Jewish tradition as more than four wives (Jacob had four wives). The problem was not polygyny itself, but excess polygyny because iirc one cannot treat all wives considerately with more than four in terms of time and caring. (Added: This last is my addition remembering discussion on this that may not have come from Ben as he was focused on the kings having many wives). Nope, it’s @Benjamin McGuire, maybe he will notice this and pop in and correct my understanding if I have conflated others’ ideas with his. For those who don’t have Deu 17:17 on instant recall: New International Version He must not take many wives, or his heart will be led astray. He must not accumulate large amounts of silver and gold. New Living Translation The king must not take many wives for himself, because they will turn his heart away from the LORD. And he must not accumulate large amounts of wealth in silver and gold for himself…. King James Bible Neither shall he multiply wives to himself, that his heart turn not away: neither shall he greatly multiply to himself silver and gold. https://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/17-17.htm This more recent thread has a more detailed post from Ben (the archived on has posts cut off, so details could be missing) his comments continue here https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/75542-is-polygamy-eternal/page/5/#findComment-1210167098

But we speak of being sealed in the here and now and our children of being born in the covenant, so while being sealed has the promise of continuing our relationship as a couple (I use this rather than marriage as marriage can also refer to the legal, nonreligious contract that won’t be relevant once we are dead), that is not all it is and it may even not be its main purpose (I think we need to understand what a sealing actually entails before we can know its primary purpose). There is also the sealing that takes place between the parent and the child, which can be of the same sex. Sealings are spoken of as on earth as in heaven, so they have implications for the here and now, not just the afterlife. Parking this here in case it’s helpful. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2023/10/15christofferson?lang=eng (sealing power by Christofferson, Oct 2023)

You view all lies as intending to harm?*** There is no thing as a white lie? Or are you claiming that site conveys Joseph wanted to harm or take advantage of others and so deceived them? Because if that is Brian Hales’ site, I find that very hard to believe. ***”snake” in this context is meant to convey danger and intent to harm imo

Anyone know what his duties were? How much of a spiritual leader/teacher was he considered as opposed to being involved in more temporal things (overseeing administrative stuff, welfare, etc)…what the Presiding Bishopric is seen as in a lot of ways. Hopefully that question makes sense.

I was going to post this next time I popped into the thread, lol. How can one get back on the path if they are in apostasy? Not only has doctrine been confused, but authority lost and authority matters a great deal in LDS theology. It would be at the very least “blind leading the blind”. At that point to get back to the path, a restoration will need to occur and we would anticipate that as happening outside what would then be viewed as the mainstream church, since it’s apostate and too influenced by falsehoods and likely false traditions.