longview

So why do you want to keep harping on this? Many of your posts seems to reflect some kind of resentment or utter disappointment in the imperfections of past church leaders? We can be "sorrowful" that Joseph Smith allowed himself to be worn down by the persistent hectoring by Martin Harris to "borrow" the 116 page manuscript. But this was an important lesson for Joseph AND for the church. Don't know what lessons God had in mind for NOT setting BY straight on the AGT confusion. Maybe He was allowing the members to make personal efforts to search the scriptures and clarify doctrines. It seems Orson Pratt did make a serious review and did strongly oppose many of the brethren on this topic. Most likely others made that effort also. Thus AGT was NOT canonized but remained in limbo for some reason. My experience of the last several decades is that church leaders including Kimball and Hinckley did acknowledge that AGT was propounded but it was steadily ground down to be "non-doctrinal" to be set aside. That is NOT a trend but a struggle for clarification. Not by church leaders. There were documentation from as early as 1831. Section 132 was explicit for Emma to accept this principle. Hyrum Smith tried valiantly to persuade her. That was NOT a trend but a fear on Joseph's part for greatly added persecution and violence. Not true. I used chatGPT to dig up the reference for Elijah Abel: "That man was Elijah (sometimes spelled “Able”) Abel. He was ordained an Elder (and later a Seventy) in the 1830s and is the best-known Black man to have held priesthood in Joseph Smith’s lifetime. Scholars and Church records also record later recollections — notably by Zebedee Coltrin and by statements made by Joseph F. Smith — claiming Joseph Smith was later said to have been commanded to withdraw or declare Abel’s ordination void; historians debate the reliability and meaning of those later recollections." Coltrin is recorded as saying that Abel was “dropped from the quorum” when the Prophet learned of his lineage. (Minute/notes of the May 31, 1879 meeting.)

From the scriptures. Are you familiar with the church app Gospel Library? Have you done any electronic highlighting using the phone or the desktop PC? I love to do annotations. I have 1861 annotations from years of study and meditation. Elements of an annotation can include any combinations of title, personal notes, the highlighted scripture, tags, notebooks, links to any number of other scriptures.

BYU scholars years ago studied the words of BY and determined the he has contradicted himself several times. The scholars cannot even classify the parts. No wonder BY could not proceed with normal process for canonization of this mass of confusion. In my Gospel Library app I have scores of annotations tagged with "Adam": Adam cannot be God the Father because: God is pure and holy thus cannot be subject to another fall the fall introduced carnal and corrupt state the scriptures teach that NO unclean thing can be in His Presence God already had been through a plan of redemption once in a previous Eternal Round which was sufficient for His own permanent Salvation Adam and Eve did become subject to death of the mortal body thus they were dependent on the Atonement of Jesus Christ which is a serious contradiction because God does NOT need His Son Jesus to save Him! Therefore the Adam God Theory is false. Alma 22:13 Book of Mormon 13 And Aaron did expound unto him the scriptures from the creation of Adam, laying the fall of man before him, and their carnal state and also the plan of redemption, which was prepared from the foundation of the world, through Christ, for all whosoever would believe on his name. Adam was NOT begotten of God the Father (Elohim) in the flesh, only Jesus had the distinction of being borned of God with a physical body through Mary a physical mortal being. Thus disproving the Adam God Theory. Jesus is the Only Begotten Son of God in the flesh. According to the temple endowment liturgy, God the Father (Elohim, a resurrected being) and Jehovah (Jesus, a spirit being in the First Estate) and Michael (the archangel, also a spirit being in the First Estate) came down to Earth for the purpose of forming a Terrestrial body for Michael. Thus Michael was placed into that body and became known as Adam. The liturgy explicitly states that Adam had forgotten all which implied that the veil of forgetfulness had been placed on his mind. This leads to several theological problems: Why would God the Father NEED to forget His purposes? Why would God the Father need to go through another "Plan of Redemption", another corruption, another physical mortal death, and another resurrection? Why would God the Father need to RELY on the Atonement of Jesus for Himself? But Adam certainly did need it! Why would God the Father and Eve need to be tempted by Lucifer to partake of the Forbidden Fruit? Why would God the Father need to have a Terrestrial body prepatory to the Fall? Why not go directly from Celestial state to the Telestial? Why would God the Father set Cherubim and a flaming sword to guard the way of the Tree of Life in order to prevent Adam and Eve from partaking of it? See Moses 4:28. Supporters of the Adam God Theory have to go through a great deal of contortions to make distinctions between God the Father and Michael. Why would Elohim and Jehovah (Jesus) be giving Adam and Eve a choice between having children or NOT partaking of Forbidden Fruit? 2 Nephi 25:12 Book of Mormon 12 But, behold, they shall have wars, and rumors of wars; and when the day cometh that the Only Begotten of the Father, yea, even the Father of heaven and of earth, shall manifest himself unto them in the flesh, behold, they will reject him, because of their iniquities, and the hardness of their hearts, and the stiffness of their necks. Doctrine and Covenants 29:40–43 Doctrine and Covenants 40 Wherefore, it came to pass that the devil tempted Adam, and he partook of the forbidden fruit and transgressed the commandment, wherein he became subject to the will of the devil, because he yielded unto temptation. 41 Wherefore, I, the Lord God, caused that he should be cast out from the Garden of Eden, from my presence, because of his transgression, wherein he became spiritually dead, which is the first death, even that same death which is the last death, which is spiritual, which shall be pronounced upon the wicked when I shall say: Depart, ye cursed. 42 But, behold, I say unto you that I, the Lord God, gave unto Adam and unto his seed, that they should not die as to the temporal death, until I, the Lord God, should send forth angels to declare unto them repentance and redemption, through faith on the name of mine Only Begotten Son. 43 And thus did I, the Lord God, appoint unto man the days of his probation—that by his natural death he might be raised in immortality unto eternal life, even as many as would believe; The Only Begotten means that Adam could not have been God the Father. Adam and Eve bore multiple children. Therefore the Adam God Theory is contradictory. Alma 13:9 Book of Mormon 9 Thus they become high priests forever, after the order of the Son, the Only Begotten of the Father, who is without beginning of days or end of years, who is full of grace, equity, and truth. And thus it is. Amen. This disproves the Adam God Theory. If Adam was God the Father then he should not have died (body and spirit never to be divided). [February 20, 2023, 7:10 AM] And God the Father cannot repeat His personal experience with being subject to the Fall and it's attendent corruption. He did not need go through the Second Estate again. Once is enough for every person. (Lucifer and his angels have deprived themselves of the opportunity to go through the Second Estate.) Alma 11:45 Book of Mormon 45 Now, behold, I have spoken unto you concerning the death of the mortal body, and also concerning the resurrection of the mortal body. I say unto you that this mortal body is raised to an immortal body, that is from death, even from the first death unto life, that they can die no more; their spirits uniting with their bodies, never to be divided; thus the whole becoming spiritual and immortal, that they can no more see corruption. "To go no more out" is powerful evidence against the Adam/God heresy. For Heavenly Father cannot leave His exaltation to go through the Fall again and to be subject to corruption and death again. To be dependent on Atonement of His son Jesus more than once. Alma 7:23–25 Book of Mormon 23 And now I would that ye should be humble, and be submissive and gentle; easy to be entreated; full of patience and long-suffering; being temperate in all things; being diligent in keeping the commandments of God at all times; asking for whatsoever things ye stand in need, both spiritual and temporal; always returning thanks unto God for whatsoever things ye do receive. 24 And see that ye have faith, hope, and charity, and then ye will always abound in good works. 25 And may the Lord bless you, and keep your garments spotless, that ye may at last be brought to sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and the holy prophets who have been ever since the world began, having your garments spotless even as their garments are spotless, in the kingdom of heaven to go no more out. this completely destroys the Adam/God theory [February 10, 2023, 10:15 AM] Before the Fall of Adam, all of God's creations were in Paradisiacal State. Including all living things that were not subject to death. This Adam was definitely Michael the Archangel. 2 Nephi 2:22–23 Book of Mormon 22 And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end. 23 And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin. protection of the House of Israel; eternal increase; blessings of temple covenants. The God of Israel is Jehovah. Which is Jesus Christ. Both Abraham and Adam are subordinate to and dependent on Jesus/Jehovah. Therefore Adam is NOT the same person as God the Father. Abraham 2:8–11 Pearl of Great Price 8 My name is Jehovah, and I know the end from the beginning; therefore my hand shall be over thee. 9 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee above measure, and make thy name great among all nations, and thou shalt be a blessing unto thy seed after thee, that in their hands they shall bear this ministry and Priesthood unto all nations; 10 And I will bless them through thy name; for as many as receive this Gospel shall be called after thy name, and shall be accounted thy seed, and shall rise up and bless thee, as their father; 11 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse them that curse thee; and in thee (that is, in thy Priesthood) and in thy seed (that is, thy Priesthood), for I give unto thee a promise that this right shall continue in thee, and in thy seed after thee (that is to say, the literal seed, or the seed of the body) shall all the families of the earth be blessed, even with the blessings of the Gospel, which are the blessings of salvation, even of life eternal. Another evidence against Adam/God theory. Heavenly Father is a resurrected being which body and spirit never to be separated again. Therefore Adam was NOT Heavenly Father. Moses 6:12 Pearl of Great Price 12 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years, and he died. This is a clear and concise relationship between the three of them: The Lord God is Heavenly Father The Only Begotten is Jesus Adam is definitely not Heavenly Father Adam is dependent on Jesus This proves Adam/God theory is false. Moses 4:28 Pearl of Great Price 28 And I, the Lord God, said unto mine Only Begotten: Behold, the man is become as one of us to know good and evil; and now lest he put forth his hand and partake also of the tree of life, and eat and live forever, Moses 4:25 Pearl of Great Price 25 By the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, until thou shalt return unto the ground—for thou shalt surely die—for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou wast, and unto dust shalt thou return. Another confirmation that Adam (Michael) is distinct from Heavenly Father. See verse 3. Here are Adam and Eve WAITING in the spirit world for four thousand years for Jesus to perform the Atonement. Jesus the FIRSTFRUIT of the resurrection. THEN Adam and Eve finally gets to be resurrected. Doctrine and Covenants 137:5 Doctrine and Covenants 5 I saw Father Adam and Abraham; and my father and my mother; my brother Alvin, that has long since slept; Michael = Adam Gabriel = Noah Raphael? Is it Moses? Doctrine and Covenants 128:21 Doctrine and Covenants 21 And again, the voice of God in the chamber of old Father Whitmer, in Fayette, Seneca county, and at sundry times, and in divers places through all the travels and tribulations of this Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints! And the voice of Michael, the archangel; the voice of Gabriel, and of Raphael, and of divers angels, from Michael or Adam down to the present time, all declaring their dispensation, their rights, their keys, their honors, their majesty and glory, and the power of their priesthood; giving line upon line, precept upon precept; here a little, and there a little; giving us consolation by holding forth that which is to come, confirming our hope! This indicates that there were no progenitors for Adam and Eve's physical bodies but by the organising power of God's word. Doctrine and Covenants 84:16 Doctrine and Covenants 16 And from Enoch to Abel, who was slain by the conspiracy of his brother, who received the priesthood by the commandments of God, by the hand of his father Adam, who was the first man— There are three persons: God the Father (Creator), Jesus Christ (the Only Begotten Son of God in the flesh) and Adam (NOT begotten of God the Father, is subject to death and is dependent on the Atonement of Christ). Jesus does not command Heavenly Father, neither does He forgive Him. Therefore Heavenly Father was NOT Adam. Adam must act in the name of Christ. Moses 6:51–53 Pearl of Great Price 51 And he called upon our father Adam by his own voice, saying: I am God; I made the world, and men before they were in the flesh. 52 And he also said unto him: If thou wilt turn unto me, and hearken unto my voice, and believe, and repent of all thy transgressions, and be baptized, even in water, in the name of mine Only Begotten Son, who is full of grace and truth, which is Jesus Christ, the only name which shall be given under heaven, whereby salvation shall come unto the children of men, ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, asking all things in his name, and whatsoever ye shall ask, it shall be given you. 53 And our father Adam spake unto the Lord, and said: Why is it that men must repent and be baptized in water? And the Lord said unto Adam: Behold I have forgiven thee thy transgression in the Garden of Eden. Adam and Eve were still in their disembodied state dependent on their Savior Jesus Christ for their resurrection. This disproves the "Adam God Theory". Doctrine and Covenants 138:38–39 Doctrine and Covenants 38 Among the great and mighty ones who were assembled in this vast congregation of the righteous were Father Adam, the Ancient of Days and father of all, 39 And our glorious Mother Eve, with many of her faithful daughters who had lived through the ages and worshiped the true and living God. Alma 42:2 Book of Mormon 2 Now behold, my son, I will explain this thing unto thee. For behold, after the Lord God sent our first parents forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground, from whence they were taken—yea, he drew out the man, and he placed at the east end of the garden of Eden, cherubim, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the tree of life— It is clear that Adam and Eve needed the Atonement of Christ. Thus Adam is NOT the same person as God the Father. Thus Adam and Eve were subservient to both God the Father and Jesus. Moses 5:10–12 Pearl of Great Price 10 And in that day Adam blessed God and was filled, and began to prophesy concerning all the families of the earth, saying: Blessed be the name of God, for because of my transgression my eyes are opened, and in this life I shall have joy, and again in the flesh I shall see God. 11 And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient. 12 And Adam and Eve blessed the name of God, and they made all things known unto their sons and their daughters. this power is His priesthood. His creations are done with priesthood templates? this implies that Adam was NOT begotten somewhere else and brought to earth? That God organized Adam's physical body from the dust of the earth by His Word through the power of the priesthood? This disproves the Adam God Theory. Chiasmus: a- For behold, by the power of his word man came upon the face of the earth --b- which earth was created by the power of his word. --b'- Wherefore, if God being able to speak and the world was, a'- and to speak and man was created Jacob 4:9–10 Book of Mormon 9 For behold, by the power of his word man came upon the face of the earth, which earth was created by the power of his word. Wherefore, if God being able to speak and the world was, and to speak and man was created, O then, why not able to command the earth, or the workmanship of his hands upon the face of it, according to his will and pleasure? 10 Wherefore, brethren, seek not to counsel the Lord, but to take counsel from his hand. For behold, ye yourselves know that he counseleth in wisdom, and in justice, and in great mercy, over all his works. 1 Timothy 2:13–14 New Testament 13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Adam did not have a birthing progenitor but was formed by God? First man implies it was not God that partook of the fruit in order to take on fallen nature? Abraham 1:3 Pearl of Great Price 3 It was conferred upon me from the fathers; it came down from the fathers, from the beginning of time, yea, even from the beginning, or before the foundation of the earth, down to the present time, even the right of the firstborn, or the first man, who is Adam, or first father, through the fathers unto me. The Fall implies corruption. Therefore Heavenly Father was NOT Adam. Moses 6:48 Pearl of Great Price 48 And he said unto them: Because that Adam fell, we are; and by his fall came death; and we are made partakers of misery and woe. Moses 6:45 Pearl of Great Price 45 And death hath come upon our fathers; nevertheless we know them, and cannot deny, and even the first of all we know, even Adam. Doctrine and Covenants 116:1 Doctrine and Covenants 1 Spring Hill is named by the Lord Adam-ondi-Ahman, because, said he, it is the place where Adam shall come to visit his people, or the Ancient of Days shall sit, as spoken of by Daniel the prophet Adam is the archangel, NOT God the Father, NOT the Most High. Adam a prince. NOT even in the Godhead to be among God the Father, Jehovah (Jesus), and the Holy Ghost. Doctrine and Covenants 107:54–56 Doctrine and Covenants 54 And the Lord appeared unto them, and they rose up and blessed Adam, and called him Michael, the prince, the archangel. 55 And the Lord administered comfort unto Adam, and said unto him: I have set thee to be at the head; a multitude of nations shall come of thee, and thou art a prince over them forever. 56 And Adam stood up in the midst of the congregation; and, notwithstanding he was bowed down with age, being full of the Holy Ghost, predicted whatsoever should befall his posterity unto the latest generation. This shows that Adam is UNDER the presiding authority of Jesus Christ or Jehovah. Doctrine and Covenants 78:14–16 Doctrine and Covenants 14 That through my providence, notwithstanding the tribulation which shall descend upon you, that the church may stand independent above all other creatures beneath the celestial world; 15 That you may come up unto the crown prepared for you, and be made rulers over many kingdoms, saith the Lord God, the Holy One of Zion, who hath established the foundations of Adam-ondi-Ahman; 16 Who hath appointed Michaelyour prince, and established his feet, and set him upon high, and given unto him the keys of salvation under the counsel and direction of the Holy One, who is without beginning of days or end of life. Doctrine and Covenants 27:11 Doctrine and Covenants 11 And also with Michael, or Adam, the father of all, the prince of all, the ancient of days;

Why would the church offer a settlement? TB is making very bizarre accusations. He would be better served to drop this particular conspiracy theory.

As I keep saying, Jesus will be very thorough in discerning the thoughts, feelings, motivations, and actions of every person going thru all stages of existence. He will fully analyze circumstances and efforts of everyone from top to bottom, side to side, and frontwards and backwards. The most valiant and energetic will be ushered into the Celestial Kingdom in the morning of the First Resurrection. All others will be sorted out in descending order of faithfulness into the Second Resurrection and later dim bulb resurrections. I would NOT be surprised if those that got "buffeted" in the place of torment will eventually make the CHOICE to go all the way to the Celestial Kingdom. The Atonement is what makes it possible. Jesus felt tremendous JOY as He partook of the "bitter cup" in the Garden of Gethsemane. He desires the BEST for everyone. But to serve in the Celestial Kingdom is NOT a frivolous choice. Sincerity and commitment is required.

It can mean that but Jesus was talking to Peter. I am pretty sure you are aware Jesus first said this to Satan at the beginning of His three year ministry when He went out into the wilderness and completed His 40-day fast. See Luke 4:8.

But will he in the end as he goes through repentance and possibly have a change of heart be able to progress to exaltation as if he had never procrastinated or at least the Celestial Kingdom? You are going around in circles again. Let's recap the main points from my original post using one scenario (among many variations): the man hears about the Gospel he is impressed so he accepts baptism and maybe some other ordinances after a while he becomes uncomfortable about repenting of some unresolved sins he may keep some of those sins undercover but he becomes less enthused about keeping up appearances so he will drift further away from the church even though he KNOWS he cannot justify his secrets and addictions he disregards the healing power and transformative effect of relying on Jesus' Atonement (he might be apathetic about repenting) he rationalize making this lifestyle choice thinking he will get it taken care of in the next world upon his death years later, he "wakes up" in hell suffering torments for all the evil choices he made and having a terrible time overcoming his addictions (spiritual desire) authorized missionaries from Paradise make a visit with the man and persuade him to try again for getting back on the covenant path because he "disrespected" the Atonement while in mortality, he has to suffer for all his sins any addictions from mortality will be amplified so he has to seriously work harder than he would have during earth life (he did not care about the healing and strengthening power of the Atonement he could have obtained) after the man has paid the price for his OWN sins, he will then be able to start making progress resuming the covenant path D&C 82:21 "And the soul that sins against this covenant, and hardeneth his heart against it, shall be dealt with according to the laws of my church, and shall be delivered over to the buffetings of Satan until the day of redemption." See the list above. The sinner can obtain the healing power and transformation provided by the Atonement only if he is willing to patiently walk with Jesus (be yoked with Him). The benefits of the Atonement are NOT showered on the person all at once. It is acquired incrementally day by day "until the perfect day." If the sinner is NOT willing to stay on the covenant path during mortality then he is trampling this power under his feet. Therefore he will NOT in the next world be able to make use of the Atonement and will have to suffer for his OWN sins. This is a terrible word salad. Just know that Jesus will render righteous judgements. The sinner has to decide for himself what kind of commitment he is willing to make and to give full accounting for his own actual desires. Mercy cannot rob justice. Blessings can only be obtained thru obedience.

It may be a matter of MANY small degrees. The Great Jehovah will righteously judge and love and encourage and plead with all children to take the steps needed for ultimate exaltation. I think of Jesus exclaiming to Satan: "Get thee behind Me!" Was He encouraging Satan to follow Him? No. Jesus greatly desires people to be willing to repent and ALLOW His Atonement to have power to redeem them. His joy was tremendous even as He suffered in the Garden of Gethsemane. But as I have indicated in my original post: it would be MUCH better to accept Gospel in mortality and NOT procrastinate the day of repentance or put off until the next world. Jesus will judge the sincerity of his heart. If the procrastinator was insincere, then he probably has less access to the power of the Atonement and suffer more for his sins in the next world. Absolutely agree. Mosiah 27:31 - "Yea, every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess before him. Yea, even at the last day, when all men shall stand to be judged of him, then shall they confess that he is God; then shall they confess, who live without God in the world, that the judgment of an everlasting punishment is just upon them; and they shall quake, and tremble, and shrink beneath the glance of his all-searching eye."

I think I read somewhere that those who had opportunity to hear the Gospel but chose to live the pleasures of the world, will in the next world have the ability to repent BUT be unable to apply ALL of the powers of the Atonement. So their sufferings will be greater and their addictions will be more difficult to overcome. It would have been better to repent during mortality. Are you familiar with any of that?

Or a master of cut and paste galore.

Well. It is already apparent that women tend to be MORE mature than men.

Learning doctrine and studying the teachings of the church are NOT mindlessly "repeating slogans." Seeking evidence by searching thru the scriptures (as Jesus has counseled) and exercising our reasoning capacities and verifying truths in actual life experiences are what disciples are encouraged to do as much as possible. This is why I am NOT interested in an extended dialogue with you. You seem to enjoy behaving in a bizarre manner. A Nehor wannabe? So an expression of faith rather than you trying to prove anything here? (this is my position, so I may be projecting) An expression of my sincere reasoning capacity. One of the "proofs" is that "self-awareness" is "uncreated" meaning it has NO beginning (co-eternal with God) and will have NO ending. I posted to narrator that I believe there are at least four stages of existence. Therefore, "self-awareness" existed BEFORE the First Estate. Are you implying that EVERY discussion has to be conducted using the exact same format, rules, premises, assumptions, etc? How to account for differences in perspectives, life experiences, training, preferences, maturity, education, etc?

I did not use the word impossible. I can break this down into parts: sufficient number of brain neurons for foraging for food, fighting for survival, seeking shelter, finding a mate for reproduction, "automatic" body/organ functions, etc how many more neurons does it take a creature to plan and prioritize any of the above activities? how much more massive the brain does it take for having "self-awareness" and expressing "feelings"? We know that animals are self-aware and DO display feelings and loyalty for their human care-givers. Dogs are known to have deep feelings of sorrow at the passing of their masters and even lie on the grave. My contention is that NO amount of neurons can account for any creatures' self-awareness. The brain by necessity has to interface with a sentient spirit component. I had a fascinating experience many years ago when my children bought home a hamster and a ferret. One child placed the ferret in front of the hamster. The hamster fell back with wide-eyed fear and horror. It was shaking and after about 5 seconds it let out a scream of abject despair. (no worry, the ferret did not attack). This to me is overwhelming evidence of the hamster's feelings and self-awareness. Nothing "circular" about that! I had a 30 year career in building and maintaining complex business systems. So I naturally have a great awareness of the requirements of computer modules and programming. The DNA strands are powerful evidence of the "MIND of the designer" with its cellular machinery so astonishing that more evolutionists are conceding that "random" developments cannot account for the complex to arise from the simple. The philosopher Stephen Meyer has made many excellent presentations for intelligent design. Yes I did. Please reference my last 3 postings of AI. One brought in the LDS church perspectives even though I did NOT ask it to. It seems it remembers my previous questions from weeks past involving the church. They are amazing. However, there is a MASSIVE "gulf" between physical attributes and the inexplicable "uncreated" self-awareness. I am not interested in "straining at a gnat." Some of your questions are TOO atomistic for my taste.

That the spiritual being with its self-awareness and amazing capacity and marvelous attributes enables the physical body to perform so much better than its corresponding brain neurons would suggest. Don't you think?

I used it for illustrative purposes. I was letting @the narrator know of the wonders of nature. Such as the amazingly small size of the brain of the Bee Hummingbird (size of a grain of rice) but very capable of doing complex things with many wonderful attributes. This was in line with the discussion on the spirit body taking possession of "clay tabernacles." I believe it is. I was following up on the spirit/body enhancements and providing additional evidence of spiritual "self-awareness" with marvelous new layers of attributes.

Many of your questions are TOO needle-focused for my taste. So I am sharing my thoughts by walking you thru basic steps in a progressive manner.

You are justified in having concerns. I actually did see some errors in this one but it was not too serious so that we can all gain from pondering new perspectives.

My next step is to examine the brain capacity of the Bee Hummingbird with the help of chatGPT: He frequently suggested that animals: obey divine law more faithfully than humans retain harmony between spirit and body better than humans possess “knowledge inherited from pre-mortal realms” b. Spirit and body coordination Nibley tied the astounding precision of animals—migration, navigation, sacrificial behavior, fidelity—to the spirit-body interface, not merely neurons. 2. James E. Talmage In Jesus the Christ and The Articles of Faith, Talmage made several clear doctrinal points: a. Animals possess spirits Talmage states plainly: All living things have spirits created before the world. These spirits correspond to their physical bodies (“each after its kind”). b. Instinct reflects pre-mortal endowment Talmage taught that the remarkable abilities of animals are: partly spirit-derived intelligence expressed through the body “according to its capacity” This means a bee hummingbird or a bee itself: has limited neural hardware but its spirit carries eternal identity, order, and inclination c. Obedience and harmony Talmage notes that animals obey divine order more consistently than humans, fulfilling the measure of their creation with exactness. Their minds operate in concert with the divine laws embedded in their spiritual nature. 3. Orson Pratt Orson Pratt offered some of the most detailed early LDS philosophical reflections on spirit and intelligence. a. Every spirit is composed of “living, thinking particles” This is one of Pratt's most significant ideas: The spirit itself is a thinking, perceiving, acting organism. Its intelligence is inherent, not produced by the mortal brain. b. The physical brain is an instrument of expression Pratt explained that: The spirit has its own faculties The brain is a temporary tool allowing expression in mortality Differences in animal brains merely limit their outward range, not the origin of their intelligence Meaning: A tiny bird with a tiny brain is not limited in spiritual intelligence—only in the elaborateness of physical expression. c. Instinct = spirit memory Pratt taught that what humans call “instinct” is often: “knowledge gained in the pre-mortal state.” Thus migration patterns, nesting behavior, mating displays, and territorial strategies: may be spirit habits learned long before mortality re-expressed through physical pathways 4. John A. Widtsoe Widtsoe integrated science with LDS theology more explicitly than most Apostles. a. Animals learn, remember, and choose Widtsoe emphasized: genuine learning in animals moral growth appropriate to their sphere spiritual individuality b. Instinct is spiritual intelligence He saw instinctive behaviors as: “intelligence expressed through a limited body” “spirit identity working through earthly conditions” c. Brain complexity is not the source of intelligence For Widtsoe: intelligence is eternal the brain merely channels it differing brain sizes produce different capacities, not intelligence itself 5. Other LDS figures (Joseph Fielding Smith, Brigham Young) Joseph Fielding Smith All animals have spirits Animals will be resurrected Their intelligence is real, not automaton-like Brigham Young The spirit forms the body The spiritual template is the true organizational basis Life is fundamentally spiritual, not biochemical Synthesis: What LDS Thinkers Would Say About the Smallest Bird Brain If you asked Nibley, Pratt, or Talmage: “How can a bird with 20–40 million neurons perform miraculous navigation and instinctive complexity?” Their likely unified response: The spirit is the primary seat of intelligence, not the physical brain. The brain is a translator, not the originator, of thought or instinct. A bird's astonishing abilities arise from: eternal identity spiritual memory pre-mortal endowment divine law working through physical structures Neurons set output limits, not intelligence limits. The harmony of animal behavior reflects: “the spirit acting through its natural organization without rebellion” (a theme common to both Nibley and Talmage)

Lets start with the basics: Think of a baby forming in the belly of the mother after conception. Ask yourself if that baby has everything it needs to grow up to be an adult. If it does, then its brain is sufficient to deal with the challenges of life. But if the brain is NOT sophisticated enough, then it requires a spirit component to interface with the brain to be more effective.

You seem to be skipping over his point: No. This is the fulcrum of the debate. So intelligences=spirits in this verse, so they are persons, etc. (hopefully I have this right and it will show I am actually understanding Ben’s comments and not pushing his words through my assumptions too hard) McGuire is insisting that the "self-awareness" began in the First Estate with the creation of spirit bodies. He has NOT explained away the implications of the plural form of intelligences. The plural form strongly assert the individuality of each self-aware intelligence (in this context referring to personhood, not attributes). See Abr 3:21 "for I (God) rule ... over all the intelligences thine eyes have seen from the beginning; I came down in the beginning in the midst of all the intelligences thou hast seen." God interacted with all those INDIVIDUALS (like a man talking with people). Those intelligences in whatever form they were in, can NOT have a beginning of self-awareness or sentience at ANY finite point. When Heavenly Parents formed the spirit bodies in the First Estate, those bodies had NO self-awareness. The only way to animate the spirit bodies is to insert pre-existing self-aware intelligences (that never had a beginning of self-awareness) into those spirit bodies. Those spirit bodies had a definite beginning point BUT were simply shells. This is a similar process to spirit children acquiring physical bodies in mortality, the Second Estate.

There are at least four stages of existence: Intelligences - sentient beings that have never been created/organized (uncreated, have no beginnings, co-eternal with God) appearance unknown prior to the First Estate Spirit Children of Heavenly Parents - The First Estate - spirit bodies formed in the image of God (human appearance) - Intelligences are given these to inhabit and acquire greater attributes Mortality - The Second Estate - physical bodies formed in the womb of humans - spirit children enter into earthly babies to inhabit (Brigham Young called it the quickening) - these bodies are referred to in the scriptures as tabernacles of clay Resurrection - there is a probationary state in the spirit world where spirit children go after earthly death of the physical body - after making resolution and repentance and various other preparations, spirit children are again given physical bodies "not a hair shall be lost" in an uncorrupted glorified state (referred to in the scriptures as the Three Degrees of Glory)

No, they aren't. They are dealing with the problem that occurred because Joseph Smith used the term spirit and intelligence (at least in this sense) anonymously early on. That is, Joseph Smith never envisioned some sort of intelligence as a personhood that exists apart from the spirit. Your use of absolutes regarding church history is unsupportable. It undermines your credibility. I read @Calm's link to bycommonconsent and found an interesting question in the comment section. He makes a good point: 'But doesn’t the plural use of the term “intelligences” in Abraham seem inconsistent with the idea of undifferentiated spirit element? The term “intelligences” is a strange way to refer to spirit unorganized.' I am not contradicting the teachings of the Church - you are misunderstanding them. Nowhere does the Church create this distinction between personhood and attributes that you are presenting here. If they did, we wouldn't even need to have this discussion. In fact, we don't even see this word "personhood" used in these discussions from the Church. But strangely enough, you stubbornly ignore President Joseph Fielding Smith's direct statement: "This intelligence combined with the spirit constitutes a spiritual identity or individual”. Terms "spiritual identity" and "individual" DOUBLES down on the personhood of sentient intelligences. ALL BEFORE the First Estate and the organization of spirit bodies. Yet you continue to contradict Pres. Smith. Your historical references interpretations are mostly bogus. Do you see the irony? You are using the plural form of intelligences. They are persons, self-aware, sentient and progressing. You continue to disregard statements by prophets and scriptures that spirit children are indisputably "uncreated" meaning that their spirit bodies did NOT start having self-awareness in the First Estate. Preexisting intelligences came into the First Estate to gain spirit bodies. A glorious enhancement with marvelous attributes.

You are twisting their words. They actually make dual use of the term intelligence, both the personhood and the attributes. The lesson manual linked by @Calm make frequent use of intelligences to refer to their personhoods. And it also make frequent use of the words intelligent and intelligence to refer to ACQUIRED attributes. From the lesson: You are directly contradicting the teachings of the church. You keep failing to maintain careful distinctions between personhood and attributes. Pay attention to the context. It changes within the same paragraph and even within the same sentence. But it is clear to the careful reader to make unambiguous distinctions between personhood and attributes. President Joseph Fielding Smith teaches that intelligence (personhood the REAL eternal part of man) was combined with the spirit (the spirit body provided by Heavenly Parents as a wondrous attribute). Just as the spirit child of God has obtained a wondrous mortal physical body. A tremendous blessing all around!

I have no further insights into this seeming Great Paradox. But I am sure that God is NOT distressed and He has a plan. His thoughts are higher than our thoughts. We have NO idea how the universe is structured. His mathematics is mind-blowing.