Neal A Maxwell Institute And Native Americans

[Bomgeography]

I think the Neal A Maxwell Institute should hire Book of Mormon experts who also have an expertise in Native American culture and history. Kind of like when they hire Book of Mormon experts who have expertise in mesoamerica.

I think hiring experts who understand the Book of Mormon and Native American culture and history will only help people understand the Book of Mormon.

Native American Hebrew ties.

https://mormonbandwagon.com/dave/tribe-manasseh-4/

[ERayR]

I think the Neal A Maxwell Institute should hire Book of Mormon experts who also have an expertise in Native American culture and history. Kind of like when they hire Book of Mormon experts who have expertise in mesoamerica.

I think hiring experts who understand the Book of Mormon and Native American culture and history will only help people understand the Book of Mormon.

Native American Hebrew ties.

https://mormonbandwagon.com/dave/tribe-manasseh-4/

 

To understand the Book of Mormon you don't need geography you need to know how to listen to the Spirit.

[Bomgeography]

To understand the Book of Mormon you don't need geography you need to know how to listen to the Spirit.

That's a good point. Ultimately understanding the Book of Mormon does not depend on evidence but a witness from God. Geography is not important in the whole scheme of things.

Understanding the Book of Mormon from a historical point of view is a hobby of mine and I enjoy doing research in this area. I believe some traditions and culture found among Native Americans will find their origins in the Book of Mormon and I think that would be important to Native Americans who are also members.

Edited November 16, 2015 by Bomgeography

[ERayR]

That's a good point. Ultimately understanding the Book of Mormon does not depend on evidence but a witness from God. Geography is not important in the whole scheme of things.

Understanding the Book of Mormon from a historical point of view is a hobby of mine and I enjoy doing research in this area. I believe some traditions and culture found among Native Americans will find their origins in the Book of Mormon and I think that would be important to Native Americans who are also members.

 It is a hobby of mine also but so is finding understanding through personal revelation. Of the two the latter is most rewarding.

[ksfisher]

I think the Neal A Maxwell Institute should hire Book of Mormon experts who also have an expertise in Native American culture and history. Kind of like when they hire Book of Mormon experts who have expertise in mesoamerica.

I think hiring experts who understand the Book of Mormon and Native American culture and history will only help people understand the Book of Mormon.

Native American Hebrew ties.

https://mormonbandwagon.com/dave/tribe-manasseh-4/

 

The inhabitants of mesoamerica are native Americans.  America encompasses more than just the United States.  Just had to point that out. 

[Bomgeography]

The inhabitants of mesoamerica are native Americans.  America encompasses more than just the United States.  Just had to point that out.

I should have been more specific I meant North American Indians.

[ksfisher]

I should have been more specific I meant North American Indians.

 

I knew what you meant.  Just feeling mischevious.  

[Bomgeography]

I knew what you meant.  Just feeling mischevious.  

You are going to get me in trouble.

[smac97]

I think the Neal A Maxwell Institute should hire Book of Mormon experts who also have an expertise in Native American culture and history. Kind of like when they hire Book of Mormon experts who have expertise in mesoamerica.

I think hiring experts who understand the Book of Mormon and Native American culture and history will only help people understand the Book of Mormon.

Native American Hebrew ties.

https://mormonbandwagon.com/dave/tribe-manasseh-4/

 

This doesn't follow.  An expert in early late 19th-century and early 20th-century America-Mexico border issues would probably have quite a bit of informed an interesting things to say about the culture in which my paternal grandfather grew up.  But such an expert would not be helpful for either understanding the culture in which I, 100+ years later, live.  

 

Similarly, an expert in "Native American culture and history" (a hugely expansive area of expertise, by the way) would likely have interesting things to say about, I suppose, certain facets of some few Native American tribes in the 19th and 20th centuries.  But such expertise would not seem to have much utility in discussing the Nephites and Lamanites.

 

Thanks,

 

-Smac

[Bomgeography]

This doesn't follow.  An expert in early late 19th-century and early 20th-century America-Mexico border issues would probably have quite a bit of informed an interesting things to say about the culture in which my paternal grandfather grew up.  But such an expert would not be helpful for either understanding the culture in which I, 100+ years later, live.  

 

Similarly, an expert in "Native American culture and history" (a hugely expansive area of expertise, by the way) would likely have interesting things to say about, I suppose, certain facets of some few Native American tribes in the 19th But such expertise would not seem to have much utility in discussing the Nephites and Lamanites.

 

Thanks,

 

-Smac

Based on my research I would disagree I see several different Native American ties to the Book of Mormon to include temple worship. It won't be long before the general Mormon population starts seeing these ties to Native Americans and the Book of Mormon.

[Robert F. Smith]

I think the Neal A Maxwell Institute should hire Book of Mormon experts who also have an expertise in Native American culture and history. Kind of like when they hire Book of Mormon experts who have expertise in mesoamerica.

I think hiring experts who understand the Book of Mormon and Native American culture and history will only help people understand the Book of Mormon.

..................................................................................   

As I told you previously, the Maxwell Institute does not hire and does not have any Mesoamerican experts.  If you desire to find anthropologists with expertise in Amerind traditions and archeology, you will have to go to other BYU departments (Anthropology, Religious Education, New World Archaeological Foundation, etc.), or to other institutions.

Edited November 16, 2015 by Robert F. Smith

[smac97]

Based on my research I would disagree I see several different Native American ties to the Book of Mormon to include temple worship. It won't be long before the general Mormon population starts seeing these ties to Native Americans and the Book of Mormon.

 

Well, perhaps.  Correlation is not causation.  I am open to the idea that vestiges of the Gospel as believed and adhered to by the Nephites/Lamanites survived in some form to the present day.  But I think such things would need to be taken more on faith than on empirical data.

 

Thanks,

 

-Smac

[Robert F. Smith]

Well, perhaps.  Correlation is not causation.  I am open to the idea that vestiges of the Gospel as believed and adhered to by the Nephites/Lamanites survived in some form to the present day.  But I think such things would need to be taken more on faith than on empirical data.

 

Thanks,

 

-Smac

In his recent book, Traditions of the Fathers (Kofford, 2015), Brant Gardner has a plethora of significant correlations, although he sees many of them as deriving from independent invention.  My own research shows a much closer correlation:

 

1.  Non-Mormon scholars have seen some very close comparisons between Judeo-Christian religion and Mesoamerican religion:

David H. Kelley, Christian Influences in the Ancient Maya Religion (Calgary: Univ. of Canada, 2004), arguing, by the way, that the Cholula Pueblan / Cholulan Mixtec glyphs are to be dated as early as 200-600 A.D.

--sacrifice and communion are central to Judeo-Christian and Mesoamerican tradition, Nancy M. Farriss, “Sacrifice and Communion in Colonial Maya Religion,” Abstracts of Papers of the 44th International Congress of Americanists, Manchester, England, 1982 (Manchester Univ., School of Geography, 1982), 15; Miller & Farriss in Hammond & Willey, Maya Archaeology & Ethnohistory, 239, on resurrection; 239-240, “there is enough resemblance between the symbolism and dogma of the two cults to help account for the receptivity to Christianity on the East Coast and elsewhere.” 

--even if not specifically Christian, Michael Graulich found compelling evidence of Paradise Lost & Regained, along with Death, Rebirth, and Reward or Punishment in Mesoamerican tradition, M. Graulich, “Afterlife in Ancient Mexican Thought,” in Bruno Illius and Matthias Laubscher, eds., Circumpacifica: I, Mittel- und Südamerika: Festschrift für Thomas S. Barthel (Prankfort: Peter Lang, 1990), 165-188; **** De Long notes that the ca. 100 A.D. Pre-Classic murals of San Bartolo, east of El Mirador, have images of birth, death, and resurrection (with the Maize-god), and he suggests comparison with the Popol Vuh. 

 

2.  Michael Coe of Yale has “read” the same story on ancient Mayan funerary pottery as found in the text of the Mayan Popol Vuh (which Coe insists is comparable to the ancient Egyptian Book of the Dead) – a complex tale of Hero Twins, Hunahpu & Xbalanqué (and their father & uncle), at the center of elaborate rites of passage (ritual journey) from Creation, through Death (Xibalba), to Resurrection – and which is virtually the same as the well-known Old World mystery-religion sequence.  The late Cyrus Gordon provided in that same year a systematic comparison of the New World Hero Twins tale with very similar tales of twins from both Ugaritic and Egyptian literature and religion, such as “The Tale of Two Brothers: Bata & Anubis,” and “The Contendings of Horus & Seth.”  This includes, for example, the Hero Twins being put to death “in a bonfire” and crushed “on a grindstone, as corn meal is ground,” just as Ugaritic-Canaanite Mot “Death” was burned and ground up before being resurrected.  It also includes the Hero Twins being born of Xquic, who was fertilized by a god, just as the Ugaritic Twins were the sons of a woman impregnated by ‘El.  One even finds the earth rising from the primeval sea in both Popol Vuh and ancient Egyptian religion.

Coe in Visible Language, V (1971), 293-307.

C. H. Gordon, Before Columbus (1971), 156,158,164 (utilizing the Goetz & Morley edition of the Popol Vuh, 96,119-126,154-155, and citing Ugaritic Text 52 with Shahar & Shalim “Dawn & Dusk”; cf. the Twins born at dawn & dusk in a Caliña Carib myth – O. Zerries in Krickeberg, et al., Pre-Columbian American Religions, 246-247,288; see also Krickeberg in Pre-Columbian American Religions, 79-80).

 

Finally, Willey & Hammond summarized the research conclusions of Arthur Miller and Nancy Farriss as follows:

 

They argue that Christian beliefs and iconography were not, at least in the Maya way of thinking, completely incompatible with old native beliefs and that the syncretistic results came not from bewilderment or misunderstanding but from an intellectual attempt on the part of the Maya to synthesize the old and the new (cf. J. E. S. Thompson 1970).

 

“Introduction,” to Hammond & Willey, Maya Archaeology & Ethnohistory, xvi.

[Appleseed]

In his recent book, Traditions of the Fathers (Kofford, 2015), Brant Gardner has a plethora of significant correlations, although he sees many of them as deriving from independent invention.  My own research shows a much closer correlation:

 

1.  Non-Mormon scholars have seen some very close comparisons between Judeo-Christian religion and Mesoamerican religion:

David H. Kelley, Christian Influences in the Ancient Maya Religion (Calgary: Univ. of Canada, 2004), arguing, by the way, that the Cholula Pueblan / Cholulan Mixtec glyphs are to be dated as early as 200-600 A.D.

--sacrifice and communion are central to Judeo-Christian and Mesoamerican tradition, Nancy M. Farriss, “Sacrifice and Communion in Colonial Maya Religion,” Abstracts of Papers of the 44th International Congress of Americanists, Manchester, England, 1982 (Manchester Univ., School of Geography, 1982), 15; Miller & Farriss in Hammond & Willey, Maya Archaeology & Ethnohistory, 239, on resurrection; 239-240, “there is enough resemblance between the symbolism and dogma of the two cults to help account for the receptivity to Christianity on the East Coast and elsewhere.” 

--even if not specifically Christian, Michael Graulich found compelling evidence of Paradise Lost & Regained, along with Death, Rebirth, and Reward or Punishment in Mesoamerican tradition, M. Graulich, “Afterlife in Ancient Mexican Thought,” in Bruno Illius and Matthias Laubscher, eds., Circumpacifica: I, Mittel- und Südamerika: Festschrift für Thomas S. Barthel (Prankfort: Peter Lang, 1990), 165-188; **** De Long notes that the ca. 100 A.D. Pre-Classic murals of San Bartolo, east of El Mirador, have images of birth, death, and resurrection (with the Maize-god), and he suggests comparison with the Popol Vuh. 

 

2.  Michael Coe of Yale has “read” the same story on ancient Mayan funerary pottery as found in the text of the Mayan Popol Vuh (which Coe insists is comparable to the ancient Egyptian Book of the Dead) – a complex tale of Hero Twins, Hunahpu & Xbalanqué (and their father & uncle), at the center of elaborate rites of passage (ritual journey) from Creation, through Death (Xibalba), to Resurrection – and which is virtually the same as the well-known Old World mystery-religion sequence.  The late Cyrus Gordon provided in that same year a systematic comparison of the New World Hero Twins tale with very similar tales of twins from both Ugaritic and Egyptian literature and religion, such as “The Tale of Two Brothers: Bata & Anubis,” and “The Contendings of Horus & Seth.”  This includes, for example, the Hero Twins being put to death “in a bonfire” and crushed “on a grindstone, as corn meal is ground,” just as Ugaritic-Canaanite Mot “Death” was burned and ground up before being resurrected.  It also includes the Hero Twins being born of Xquic, who was fertilized by a god, just as the Ugaritic Twins were the sons of a woman impregnated by ‘El.  One even finds the earth rising from the primeval sea in both Popol Vuh and ancient Egyptian religion.

Coe in Visible Language, V (1971), 293-307.

C. H. Gordon, Before Columbus (1971), 156,158,164 (utilizing the Goetz & Morley edition of the Popol Vuh, 96,119-126,154-155, and citing Ugaritic Text 52 with Shahar & Shalim “Dawn & Dusk”; cf. the Twins born at dawn & dusk in a Caliña Carib myth – O. Zerries in Krickeberg, et al., Pre-Columbian American Religions, 246-247,288; see also Krickeberg in Pre-Columbian American Religions, 79-80).

 

Finally, Willey & Hammond summarized the research conclusions of Arthur Miller and Nancy Farriss as follows:

 

They argue that Christian beliefs and iconography were not, at least in the Maya way of thinking, completely incompatible with old native beliefs and that the syncretistic results came not from bewilderment or misunderstanding but from an intellectual attempt on the part of the Maya to synthesize the old and the new (cf. J. E. S. Thompson 1970).

 

“Introduction,” to Hammond & Willey, Maya Archaeology & Ethnohistory, xvi.

 

So still pretty weak sauce. Don't we have anything better? Or is all there is?

[Appleseed]

Sorry I am still getting used to the format here and I can't edit yet.

 

My comment was meant to respond to Robert Smith above. Here it is again:

 

So still pretty weak sauce. Don't we have anything better? Or is all there is?

[rodheadlee]

I should have been more specific I meant North American Indians.

Mexico is in North America.

 

See this map of continents where the green of North America meets the Orange there is a bridge called the Bridge of the Americas. Stop trying to kick Mexico and the southern countries out of North America

Edited November 16, 2015 by rodheadlee

[jaberwocky]

I don't understand why we are debating anything tied to LDS doctrine.  Can't we just ask Julie Rowe for the answers?

[ERayR]

Based on my research I would disagree I see several different Native American ties to the Book of Mormon to include temple worship. It won't be long before the general Mormon population starts seeing these ties to Native Americans and the Book of Mormon.

 

How can you correlate temple work of 500 BCE with LDS temple work?

[Anijen]

I should have been more specific I meant North American Indians.

The inhabitants of Mesoamerica are North American Indians as well.

 

Edited to say; oops rodheadlee beat me to it.

Edited November 16, 2015 by Anijen

[Robert F. Smith]

Sorry I am still getting used to the format here and I can't edit yet.

 

My comment was meant to respond to Robert Smith above. Here it is again:

 

So still pretty weak sauce. Don't we have anything better? Or is all there is?

So, have you bothered to read the detailed analysis of Brant Gardner's Traditions of the Fathers (Kofford, 2015)?  He has far more detail in his 6-volume commentary on the BofM, but I would appreciate your frank and honest appraisal of the evidence he assembles in his one-volume distillation.

 

The material I listed (which you consider "weak sauce") is not in Gardner, but is the non-Mormon scholarly point of view, which you ought to find rather startling -- since everything you have previously believed denied even that.  You ought to at least be open to correction of your basic assumptions.

[Bomgeography]

How can you correlate temple work of 500 BCE with LDS temple work?

I said temple worship not temple work. But it is most closely related Hebrew temple worship.

Temple ties to Native Americans

“They call themselves Aquanuskion (Algonquin), or ye Covenant People.”

(Louise Welles Murray 1908)

(Gaspesian/Micmac Indians)

“Not an Indian would ever dare to appear before the others without having in his hand, on his skin, or on his garments this sacred sign.”

(Clercq 1680 pg. 147)

Mosiah 11:10 – And he also caused that his workmen should work all manner of fine work within the walls of the temple, of fine wood, and of copper, and of brass.

(In reference to the Natchez of Mississippi, who said a race that preceded them built temples with much skill, and also taught them to build temples)

“Their temples were built with much skill and labor. They made very beautiful things with all kinds of materials, such as gold, silver, stones, wood, fabrics, feathers, and many other things in which they made their skill appear.

“A remarkable temple was situated in the town of Talmaco, upon the Savannah River, three miles distant from Cutifatchique, near Silver Bluff. It was more than one hundred feet in length, and fifty feet in width. The walls were high in proportion, and the roof steep and covered with mats of split cane, interwoven so compactly that they resembled the rush carpeting of the Moors.”

(Jones, The American Naturalist, Vol 3 1869)

“In 1934, the Tennessee Valley Authority (TVA), was constructing a dam which would flood a portion of the Clinch River in East Tennessee. Because the area to be flooded included a Hopewell Native American mound, a group of archeologists were called in to excavate the site. The archeologists came upon an amazing discovery when they uncovered the ruins of a large stone and wood structure. So unlike any other find found at a Hopewell site, British Egyptologist, James Rendel Harris from the London Museum, was consulted. At the site, Harris identified the structure as an “Egyptian Temple”. A single newspaper article documents this account.

“In the center of the mound, about three feet from its surface, I uncovered a large sacrificial vase, or altar, forty-three inches in diameter, composed of a mixture of clay and river shells. The rim of the vase was three inches in height. The entire vessel had been molded in a large wicker basket, formed of split canes, and the leaves of the cane, the impressions of which were plainly visible upon the outer surface. The circle of the vase appeared to be almost mathematically correct. The surface of the altar was covered with a layer of ashes, about one inch in thickness, and these ashes had the appearance and composition of having been derived from the burning.”

(Jones, The American Naturalist, Vol 3 1869)

(During ancient times, Hebrews were commanded to maintain an eternal flame at the tabernacle/temple – Exodus 27:20, 21)

“Henri de Tonto, who travelled with de la Salle and wrote an extensive report, thought them most “polished” people he had seen. As with the Illinois and Natchez, they maintained a sacred fire that was never allowed to go out in their major Temple… an elaborate palace with decorated walls ten feet high.”

(A Cultural History of the Atlantic World, 1250-1820, by John K. Thornton)

“The Potta-wat-um-ees moved up Lake Michigan, and by taking with them, or for a time perpetuating the national fire, which according to tradition was sacredly kept alive in their more primitive days, they have obtained the name of “those who make or keep the fire,” which is the literal meaning of their tribal cognomen.”

(Warren Williams, Ojibwa History)

(Incense)

To this day Native Americans hold tobacco sacred it is used in their religious ceremonies. As described by a Native American, when the tobacco smoke rises, it sends their prayers up to the creator. In the days of Moses and the Old Testament, incense was burned in the temple. It represented prayers ascending to God.

When studying the Natchez temples many of the same implements found in Hebrew temples was also present in the Natchez temple. In Hebrew temples, you have a rectangular shaped building with high walls, all constructed and furnished with great craftsmanship and lavishness. Inside you have the menorah, an eternal light (oil lamp), a veil, and the Ark of the Covenant. The Natchez have many similarities. They have an eternal fire that it is held with such regard that if it goes out those responsible for it are put to death. They have an altar inside their temple. They have a curtain or veil. Behind the veil is a wicker basket that no one is allowed to open. The way that the Wicker basket is presented in their temple behind a curtain that nobody is allowed to view may have similarities to the Ark of the Covenant.

Freemasons of the 19th and 20th century have noticed similarities to Native American ceremonies and freemasonry. There have been some books written about this subject. Freemasons have assumed that the Native Americans have learned this from other Freemasons, but that is only an unverified idea. The other option is explained by the Bible and the Book of Mormon.

The Native American ceremony of Red Hand is very interesting. The tribes that conducted this ceremony in their long houses are the Iroquois, that being the Seneca, Cayuga, Onondaga, Oneida, or Mohawk. Keep in mind Red Hand is a Native American ceremony, nothing else. The account has been edited for relevance.

The proceedings began with 4 raps at the door. The candidate was brought in and listened to the story of Red Hand, the ancient leader. The candidate assumes the identity of the object of the story.

Red Hand was a young Chief who received certain mysterious knowledge from the Creator of All. He was kind, generous, and loved by all.

One day in battle, a poisoned arrow felled him. The enemy Indian rushed upon him, demanding the secret of his power or his life. Red Hand refused to divulge the secrets, so he was scalped.

A lone wolf came upon the body and howled so loud he brought all the animals from the forest. They each contributed a part of their bodies and revived the scalp, which they put on Red Hand’s head. They formed a circle around him and chanted for signs of life. Red Hand listened with his eyes closed when a voice asked him these questions:

VOICE: “Hast thou cleansed thyself from human guilt and impurity?”

RED HAND: “I have.”

VOICE: “Hast thou ill will toward any of thy fellow creatures?”

RED HAND: “I have not.”

VOICE: “Wilt thou trust and obey us, keeping thyself always chaste and valorous?”

RED HAND: “I will.”

VOICE: “Wilt thou hold this power with which we endow thee for thine own chosen company only?”

RED HAND: “I will.”

VOICE: “Wilt thou endure death or torture in its cause?”

RED HAND: “I will.”

VOICE: “”Wilt thou vow this secret never to be revealed save at thy death hour?’

RED HAND: “I will.”

VOICE: “Thy death hour will be revealed to thee; thou wilt be allowed to choose thy successor, and at the end of thy journey thou wilt be rewarded for faith and obedience.”

The circle drew closer and the brother who is the bear touched the breast of Red Hand. All stood erect. The bear grasped the hand of the leader who was to be raised, though slain, and by a strong grip pulled Red Hand to his feet.

Edited November 17, 2015 by Bomgeography

[Bomgeography]

Mexico is in North America.

 

See this map of continents where the green of North America meets the Orange there is a bridge called the Bridge of the Americas. Stop trying to kick Mexico and the southern countries out of North America

I will be more specific. Native Americans found in the borders of the United States of America (promise land) to include tribes found in the Great Lakes area of Canada.

[Brant Gardner]

I said temple worship not temple work. But it is most closely related Hebrew temple worship.

(Louise Welles Murray 1908)

(Clercq 1680 pg. 147)

(Jones, The American Naturalist, Vol 3 1869)

(Jones, The American Naturalist, Vol 3 1869)

 

I edited the post to emphasize the dates. They are the precise problem. Evidence from those dates are difficult to use because the do not conform to modern standards, and are known to be incorrect in the vast numbers of conclusions they make. See post #165 by Anijen in the thread on the New Book of Mormon Geography model.

 

“Henri de Tonto, who travelled with de la Salle and wrote an extensive report, thought them most “polished” people he had seen. As with the Illinois and Natchez, they maintained a sacred fire that was never allowed to go out in their major Temple… an elaborate palace with decorated walls ten feet high.”

(A Cultural History of the Atlantic World, 1250-1820, by John K. Thornton, 2012)

“The Potta-wat-um-ees moved up Lake Michigan, and by taking with them, or for a time perpetuating the national fire, which according to tradition was sacredly kept alive in their more primitive days, they have obtained the name of “those who make or keep the fire,” which is the literal meaning of their tribal cognomen.”

(Warren Williams, Ojibwa History)

 

 

Keeping a fire going is a very common cultural trait. It is found in so many cultures and time periods that it cannot be used to make a connection between cultures. It might be linked to the difficulty of creating fire that then engendered a tradition, but that is VERY old.

 

Similarly:

 

(Incense)

To this day Native Americans hold tobacco sacred it is used in their religious ceremonies. As described by a Native American, when the tobacco smoke rises, it sends their prayers up to the creator. In the days of Moses and the Old Testament, incense was burned in the temple. It represented prayers ascending to God.

 

 

That is quite common among incense users. Again, it is so widespread as to be useless for making any connection.

 

Freemasons of the 19th and 20th century have noticed similarities to Native American ceremonies and freemasonry. There have been some books written about this subject. Freemasons have assumed that the Native Americans have learned this from other Freemasons, but that is only an unverified idea. The other option is explained by the Bible and the Book of Mormon.

Actually, there is another option, and one much more likely based on the way I have seen the literature develop for describing Native American cultures. The similarities are due to the Christian and/or Masonic beliefs of those who described the ceremonies. They say something that they reinterpreted in their own context, and then it gets pulled from that context and reused for modern purposes without examining the original information. That is precisely what I saw in the Central Mexican Quetzalcoatl material. Fortunately, there were sufficient data there to trace the development. I suspect that we don't have quite enough for the Natchez, but I can virtually guarantee that a close examination would lead to the same conclusions. The similarities are due to the reporter, not what was seen.

[mfbukowski]

Zoroastrians and Parsis also keep sacred fires but I don't see anyone contending Native Americans are Persian.

[volgadon]

The preeminent scholar Saul Lieberman documented many close parallels between pagan temples and the Jewish temple, but concluded that most of these are due to a shared approach to temples.