There seems from the point of view of many on here that "Middle Way" Mormons or "New Order Mormons" are looked at as an enemy of the church.
Examples of that rhetoric is
Please notice that I use the label in the “Abstract” (p. 127), and again on p. 140 to describe some critics of Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon. I indicate that some of these now also self-identify as New Order Mormons or use other similar or related labels
I indicate that cultural Mormons (understood my way) are not genuine Saints. If one finds no good reason to believe in God, or that there was even a Jesus of Nazareth, and hence finds the atonement silly, one can hardly qualify as a Saint. And there is at least one person who has boasted of holding just such an opinion while also giving advice to others about dealing with doubts.
<---- indicating that maybe they are interested in weeding the garden of "new order Mormons" or "Middle way Mormons"
I doubt that the Brethren are interested in weeding the garden of Book of Mormon studies.
As I have long observed and frequently noted, apostate evangelists are skilled propagandists.
Of course you do! And in so doing, I'm sure you frequently succeed in transforming doubt into hardened disbelief
Your own words, cited above, confirm that your beliefs are "anti-Christ."
<---- notice how "middle way's" definition is changed from one meaning to another. There are many definitions of Middle way Mormon - It can be as simple as a LDS who attempts to be less like a pharisee and try to live closer to the two great commandments, yet in this changed definition any "middle way" is anti Christ. One must set parameters before grabbing the broad brush
Within the context of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, there is no such thing as a "Middle Way." There is only the way of everlasting death and the way of eternal life -- two ways; one choice.
The views above seem to want to place boundaries or creeds on belief. That, not too much differently then Elder Uchtdorf's quote, we could say "Don't judge me because I believe the same things differently then you do" It almost appears as though some here want to be the LDS police, in essence determining who here is on the Lord's side, who is a critic simply because they disagree with your view, and who is "anti-Christ because their views are different then yours.
That said can you pick out a discernible difference between the quotes above and the ones below
- Elder Holland
If someone can find something in the Book of Mormon, anything that they love or respond to or find dear, I applaud that and say more power to you. That's what I find, too. And that should not in any way discount somebody's liking a passage here or a passage there or the whole idea of the book, but not agreeing to its origin, its divinity.
- Elder Holland
I think you'd be as aware as I am that that we have many people who are members of the church who do not have some burning conviction as to its origins, who have some other feeling about it that is not as committed to foundational statements and the premises of Mormonism. But we're not going to invite somebody out of the church over that any more than we would anything else about degrees of belief or steps of hope or steps of conviction. ... We would say: "This is the way I see it, and this is the faith I have; this is the foundation on which I'm going forward. If I can help you work toward that I'd be glad to, but I don't love you less; I don't distance you more; I don't say you're unacceptable to me as a person or even as a Latter-day Saint if you can't make that step or move to the beat of that drum." ... We really don't want to sound smug. We don't want to seem uncompromising and insensitive.
- Elder Holland - Obviously one has to hold some sort of faith in these events but it appears from the other quotes he is allowing for them to not be held to a specific view of those events other then to believe them divine on some level.
There are some things we can't give away. There are some foundational stones. If you don't have those, you don't have anything. So the First Vision, the Book of Mormon, those are pretty basic things.
- Elder Holland
... I didn't sense any great burden for her. Juanita was a strong woman. She was a very, very strong woman out of the hardscrabble world that southern Utah and southern Nevada settlers came [from]. ... I did not sense a sort of personal anguish, but you have to understand that by the time I would have been old enough ... that this is more than a decade after her publishing the book. ... When I knew Juanita and knew her family, she was a temple-going, tithe-paying, absolutely faithful Latter-day Saint. ... I saw her living out her life with the peace and tranquility [of someone] who had done a good piece of history and probably helped the church come to grips with something that all of us wish had never happened. ...
seems to indicate that while she took a load of grief from people who held to quotes like the top section, he actually applauds her and acknowledges she helped the church by addressing weaknesses that needed discussed. By doing so, she would according to the rhetoric above, by some here would have labeled made her in many ways a "Middle Way" or "New Order" Mormon and thereby becasue her beliefs differ she could be at risk of being defined as "anti-Christ". I realize this label was used above to describe "some" New Order Mormons and not all. I realize the label Anti Christ was used specifically to describe only those New Order Mormons who had no belief in Christ. The problem is that you are assuming it is you who has the right to create the creed of belief that constitutes "belief" in Christ. If select lay members are able to create defintions to determine if other members are permitted to be considered faithful then the Savior telling Joseph the creeds were an abomination is all for naught. While I agree with a higher standard of belief myself I also feel no authority to determine that definition for the church at large.
- Elder Holland
We don't discipline people in this church for very much. In a church of over 12 million people, I keep hearing about the September Six [the 1993 excommunication and disfellowshipping of six Mormon academics]. ... All I'm saying is, I think this church has a history of being very, very generous. There are some lines -- I'd probably say "lines," plural. The chief among these is the issue of advocating against the church. Personal beliefs within the give-and-take of life and associations and whatever you choose -- there are lots of people who carve out their life in the church all the way out to the edge and beyond. I guess that's always the way it's been, and that's always the way it will be. But I think where the church will act is when there is an act so decisive or so glaring, and particularly in this case, so much cast in the spirit of advocacy, that the institution itself cannot retain its identity and still allow that.
- Elder Holland
There are plenty of people who question the historicity of the Book of Mormon, and they are firmly in this church -- firmly, in their mind, in this church -- and the church isn't going to take action against that. [The church] probably will be genuinely disappointed, but there isn't going to be action against that, not until it starts to be advocacy: "Not only do I disbelieve in the authenticity of the Book of Mormon, I want you to disbelieve." At that point, we're going to have a conversation. A little of that is more tolerated than I think a lot of people think it should be. But I think we want to be tolerant any way we can. ... "Patient" maybe is a better word than "tolerant." We want to be patient and charitable to the extent that we can, but there is a degree beyond which we can't go. ..
- Marlin Jensen
often in the church, when someone comes with a bit of a prickly question, he'll be met with a bishop who number one, doesn't know the answer. Number two, he snaps and says, 'Get in line and don't question the prophet, and get back and do your home teaching.' And that isn't helpful in most cases. So, we need to educate our leaders better, I think, to be sympathetic and empathetic and to draw out of these people where they are coming from and what's brought them to the point they are at. What they have read, what they are thinking is, and try to understand them. Sometimes that alone is enough to help someone through a hard time. But beyond that, I think we really need to figure out a way to live a little bit with people who may never get completely settled."
So If "Defending the King and his Kingdom" is measured by how we sustain the brethren and keep our covenants (speaking ill of other LDS whom judgement is not ours), then the possibility exists that anyone who takes a harsher, call them out demeanor, declaring them Anti-Christs, may very well be just as outside the acceptable realm as those they wish to cast out.
As for me.... I would prefer we leave the 99 and fetch the 1 rather then stand with the 13 and call the 1 names.
If you attempt to say the two sections of quotes are saying the same things and carry the same love and empathy..... very very different
Edited by DBMormon, 15 December 2012 - 07:52 AM.