Bullying The Church Into Submission

[ERayR]

Your sense of irony is not well developed, I take it?

Regards,

Pahoran

Oh yes it is. Its right up there with reasoning skills.

[CASteinman]

So we're now into name calling? Another ad-hominem!

No.

I realize its probably like drinking from a firehose. There may be a feeling of being piled upon. You did sort of call it down upon yourself by making this the subject of 4 or 5 threads now and being very insistent. Its probably a bit too late to redo some of that but you might want to take a bit of time to just revisit your ideas and the way you have presented them here. Not saying that you should not post for a while but rather -- maybe you should just take a breather and maybe say a prayer or two to get some gentle feeling back. Because I meant no harm.

To be focused: Piling on was not my intent. Just a word of caution about what you seem to be planning. It may not be well considered. But everyone has a choice.

[Sleeper Cell]

So I take it you don't really have an organized movement going on, then. It's your own message-board bluster.

Well, even the “Occupy Wall Street” movement had to start somewhere.

[ERayR]

Well, even the “Occupy Wall Street” movement had to start somewhere.

GIGO

[JCNowandForever]

Another scenario....

1st Sunday

Bro. Brown: Bishop, here my payment as a "Pahoran"

Bishop: (scratching head).. what's a "Pahoran".

Bro. Brown.. You know the 10 % of my income... I'm calling it Pahoran today.

Bishop: Uh okay... thank you.

Next Sunday

Bro. Brown: Bishop, here's my payment as a "ERayR"

Bishop: (scratching head again).. what's "ERayR".

Bro. Brown.. You know the 10 % of my income... I'm calling it ERayR today.

Bishop: Uh okay... thank you... you almost got me there...

Next Sunday

Bro. Brown: Bishop, here my payment as a "CASteinman"

Bishop: (scratching head many times).. what's "CASteinman".

Bro. Brown.. You know the 10 % of my income... I'm calling it CaSteinman today.

Bishop: Uh okay... thank you.

Final Sunday

Bro. Brown: Bishop, here's my payment as a "KevinG ala SleeperCell"

Bishop: (scratching head real hard snow flakes fallin).. what's "KevinG ala SleeperCell"? Wait.. wait... don't tell me it's that 10 % of your income, right?

Bro. Brown: Yes Bishop ... I'm calling it KevinG ala SleeperCell today.

Bishop: Uh okay... thank you. Why are u calling these names for tithing.

Bro. Brown: Bishop because the scripture tells us that no matter what label we put on our contributions, to the Lord, it's tithing...

Bishop: Oh I see... i'm calling mine.... JCNowandForever!!!

[volgadon]

Another scenario....

1st Sunday

Bro. Brown: Bishop, here my payment as a "Pahoran"

Bishop: (scratching head).. what's a "Pahoran".

Bro. Brown.. You know the 10 % of my income... I'm calling it Pahoran today.

Bishop: Uh okay... thank you.

Next Sunday

Bro. Brown: Bishop, here's my payment as a "ERayR"

Bishop: (scratching head again).. what's "ERayR".

Bro. Brown.. You know the 10 % of my income... I'm calling it ERayR today.

Bishop: Uh okay... thank you... you almost got me there...

Next Sunday

Bro. Brown: Bishop, here my payment as a "CASteinman"

Bishop: (scratching head many times).. what's "CASteinman".

Bro. Brown.. You know the 10 % of my income... I'm calling it CaSteinman today.

Bishop: Uh okay... thank you.

Final Sunday

Bro. Brown: Bishop, here's my payment as a "KevinG ala SleeperCell"

Bishop: (scratching head real hard snow flakes fallin).. what's "KevinG ala SleeperCell"? Wait.. wait... don't tell me it's that 10 % of your income, right?

Bro. Brown: Yes Bishop ... I'm calling it KevinG ala SleeperCell today.

Bishop: Uh okay... thank you. Why are u calling these names for tithing.

Bro. Brown: Bishop because the scripture tells us that no matter what label we put on our contributions, to the Lord, it's tithing...

Bishop: Oh I see... i'm calling mine.... JCNowandForever!!!

I feel unwanted...

[ERayR]

I feel unwanted...

You don't really want to be here. It all started when we fell into that hole in the middle of the garden and met this... Now where was I? Ah yes. It all started when we fell into that hole in the middle of the garden and met this... Now where was...

[JCNowandForever]

I feel unwanted...

Ok ok... sorry for not including you :

Tithing settlement:

Brother Brown: Bishop, I'm ready to settle my Volgadon today..

Bishop: Ok... you contributed your Pahoran, your CASteinman, your ERayR, your KevinG and your SleeperCell this year. That totaled 8,574.56. Is this ia full tithe?

Brother Brown: Um.. well I'm looking at my W-2 and it say 85.745.52. I still owe you 1 cent, Bishop.

Bishop.. Ok... i'll take it.. Next year don't forget your volgadon...

Brother Brown. Thanks Bishop....

Bishop: ok lets pray....Father.... we thank thee for Volgadon, and Pahoran and CASTeinman and ErayR and KevinG and SleeperCell. Without them, we would'nt have this wonderful church today. Thank. you....

You are out of the thread

[Pahoran]

Ok ok... sorry for not including you :

Tithing settlement:

Brother Brown: Bishop, I'm ready to settle my Volgadon today..

Bishop: Ok... you contributed your Pahoran, your CASteinman, your ERayR, your KevinG and your SleeperCell this year. That totaled 8,574.56. Is this ia full tithe?

Brother Brown: Um.. well I'm looking at my W-2 and it say 85.745.52. I still owe you 1 cent, Bishop.

Bishop.. Ok... i'll take it.. Next year don't forget your volgadon...

Brother Brown. Thanks Bishop....

Bishop: ok lets pray....Father.... we thank thee for Volgadon, and Pahoran and CASTeinman and ErayR and KevinG and SleeperCell. Without them, we would'nt have this wonderful church today. Thank. you....

You know, I have to admit I've never met a Latter-day Saint who found it amusing to mock something as sacred as prayer.

And I don't anticipate that changing any time soon.

Regards,

Pahoran

[volgadon]

You know, I have to admit I've never met a Latter-day Saint who found it amusing to mock something as sacred as prayer.

And I don't anticipate that changing any time soon.

Regards,

Pahoran

Nor do I know any who use the flippant JC.

[Sleeper Cell]

You don't really want to be here. It all started when we fell into that hole in the middle of the garden and met this... Now where was I? Ah yes. It all started when we fell into that hole in the middle of the garden and met this... Now where was...

One pill makes you larger.

And one pill makes you small.

And the ones that mother gives you

don’t do anything at all.

Edited August 23, 2012 by Sleeper Cell

[Calm]

Have to admit it was interesting watching an attempt at bullying the church sitting on a front row seat.

[why me]

Ok ok... sorry for not including you :

Tithing settlement:

Brother Brown: Bishop, I'm ready to settle my Volgadon today..

Bishop: Ok... you contributed your Pahoran, your CASteinman, your ERayR, your KevinG and your SleeperCell this year. That totaled 8,574.56. Is this ia full tithe?

Brother Brown: Um.. well I'm looking at my W-2 and it say 85.745.52. I still owe you 1 cent, Bishop.

Bishop.. Ok... i'll take it.. Next year don't forget your volgadon...

Brother Brown. Thanks Bishop....

Bishop: ok lets pray....Father.... we thank thee for Volgadon, and Pahoran and CASTeinman and ErayR and KevinG and SleeperCell. Without them, we would'nt have this wonderful church today. Thank. you....

You are out of the thread

I think that you have some anger in you. This goes back to my thread on exmormon anger and why. What you don't seem to realize is that people do not have that much control in how a church does its business or sets its policies. This is true for most dominations. There will be always something that one can disagree with. However, one must see the bigger picture and not let the anger get the best of them. And the same goes for disappointment. In terms of investments and tithings, America is a capitalist country where investments are the name of the game. No church can exist on a global scale without investments for better or for worse. And no church must let their investments known to the general public.

[Scott Lloyd]

Have to admit it was interesting watching an attempt at bullying the church sitting on a front row seat.

I suspect what we have seen here is an endeavor to lay groundwork for the next staged media show to disparage the Church of Jesus Christ.

The scenario runs something like this:

Disgruntled member tries to pay tithing with strings attached. Predictably, bishop declines to accept the offering under the conditions demanded. Eventually, disgruntled member loses or is denied temple recommend because of his refusal to pay tithing as the Church defines it. Gathering as many cohorts as he can recruit, disgruntled member trots off to the media with tales of how he and they were ill-used.

If you think about it, the pieces seem to fall into place, including the spamming of this message board and the dire prediction of unfavorable publicity on this and other websites.

Edited August 23, 2012 by Scott Lloyd

[KevinG]

I missed the fun.

Oh well. Another troll will be by soon I'm sure. Perhaps even one with the same IP address.

[ERayR]

I suspect what we have seen here is an endeavor to lay groundwork for the next staged media show to disparage the Church of Jesus Christ.

The scenario runs something like this:

Disgruntled member tries to pay tithing with strings attached. Predictably, bishop declines to accept the offering under the conditions demanded. Eventually, disgruntled member loses or is refused temple recommend because of his refusal to pay tithing as the Church defines it. Gathering as many cohorts as he can recruit, disgruntled member trots off to the media with tales of how he and they were ill-used.

If you think about it, the pieces seem to fall into place, including the spamming of this message board and the dire prediction of unfavorable publicity on this and other websites.

Hadn't thought of that but it seems a reasonable assumption given that he/they already have a blog going(I think he mentioned a blog or web page).

[Scott Lloyd]

Hadn't thought of that but it seems a reasonable assumption given that he/they already have a blog going(I think he mentioned a blog or web page).

I'm unacquainted with such a blog, but I note JCNAF started a thread on Tuesday over at the compound on this topic. In that thread, as well as on this board, he referred to "several forums in the internet" in which the matter is reportedly being discussed.

Edited August 23, 2012 by Scott Lloyd

[Mark Beesley]

I'm unacquainted with such a blog, but I note JCNAF started a thread on Tuesday over at the compound on this topic. In that thread, he referred to "several forums in the internet" in which the matter is reportedly being discussed.

Folks can discuss the matter all they want. The fact is, the Church already accepts conditional donations. Anyone can make them; they don't even have to be a member. They are used to fund things like libraries, schools, monuments, etc. One need not use a tithing slip to make a donation to the Church. As for being denied a Temple Recommend, if a person answers the question during the interview about whether or not they are a full tithe payer, I don't think the Bishop does an audit to verify the veracity of the answer, much like we don't demand an audit when the President of the Church assures us that tithing funds are not used to construct shopping malls. The Church, if anything, is built and is operated in large part on principles of trust. Troublemakers have a difficult time grasping that concept, probably because they are not very trustworthy.

[Scott Lloyd]

Folks can discuss the matter all they want. The fact is, the Church already accepts conditional donations. Anyone can make them; they don't even have to be a member. They are used to fund things like libraries, schools, monuments, etc. One need not use a tithing slip to make a donation to the Church. As for being denied a Temple Recommend, if a person answers the question during the interview about whether or not they are a full tithe payer, I don't think the Bishop does an audit to verify the veracity of the answer, much like we don't demand an audit when the President of the Church assures us that tithing funds are not used to construct shopping malls. The Church, if anything, is built and is operated in large part on principles of trust. Troublemakers have a difficult time grasping that concept, probably because they are not very trustworthy.

I think the issue is making a conditional donation and insisting that it be accounted as tithing. If a person tries to do that and makes a big scene over it, then refuses to pay tithing unless his conditions are met, it's going to be pretty clear to the bishop that the person is not a full tither payer, whether the bishop does an audit or not.

[Mark Beesley]

I think the issue is making a conditional donation and insisting that it be accounted as tithing. If a person tries to do that and makes a big scene over it, then refuses to pay tithing unless his conditions are met, it's going to be pretty clear to the bishop that the person is not a full tither payer, whether the bishop does an audit or not.

Well, let's be careful that we don't yet attribute a motive to an act that has not occurred.

[ERayR]

Well, let's be careful that we don't yet attribute a motive to an act that has not occurred.

Mark one doesn't have to "attribute" anything. One only has to go back and read JCNAF's posts. He is quite forthright concerning both motive and method.

[Mark Beesley]

Mark one doesn't have to "attribute" anything. One only has to go back and read JCNAF's posts. He is quite forthright concerning both motive and method.

Ok. I just wasn't aware that anyone had attempted to make a conditional donation to the Church and put up a fuss when it was refused or the Bishop didn't let it count as tithing, or some such thing. It's all rather theoretical. (And I wouldn't worry too much about JCNAF. I rather doubt he is even active LDS, and as such, I would be surprised if he was willing to put his money where is mouth is and actually try to make a conditional donation to the Church. Gasp!! What does he do when the Church accept it?)

[Scott Lloyd]

Well, let's be careful that we don't yet attribute a motive to an act that has not occurred.

My use of the phrase "I suspect" was meant to signal that I have not done any attributing as of yet.

[Scott Lloyd]

Ok. I just wasn't aware that anyone had attempted to make a conditional donation to the Church and put up a fuss when it was refused or the Bishop didn't let it count as tithing, or some such thing. It's all rather theoretical. (And I wouldn't worry too much about JCNAF. I rather doubt he is even active LDS, and as such, I would be surprised if he was willing to put his money where is mouth is and actually try to make a conditional donation to the Church. Gasp!! What does he do when the Church accept it?)

The same possibility had occurred to me.

But then, we are both only suspecting at this point, right?

Edited August 23, 2012 by Scott Lloyd

[ERayR]

Ok. I just wasn't aware that anyone had attempted to make a conditional donation to the Church and put up a fuss when it was refused or the Bishop didn't let it count as tithing, or some such thing. It's all rather theoretical. (And I wouldn't worry too much about JCNAF. I rather doubt he is even active LDS, and as such, I would be surprised if he was willing to put his money where is mouth is and actually try to make a conditional donation to the Church. Gasp!! What does he do when the Church accept it?)

If you are interested enough to wade back through it I and others have noted that 1) The bishop can not accept donations with the refund clause because he doesn't have the authority to bind the church to such an agreement. 2) The church has a disclaimer on the donation slip. 3) Although the annual amounts are probably insignificant the actual detectability of this kind of thing is questionable and over a period of years the tax ramifications to the doner could be quite consequential should a refund actually be given.

All in all not one of their better ideas but who said you have to actually reason things through to be a protester.