Bullying The Church Into Submission

[ERayR]

So you're unable to provide a CFR that say "any donation"? Retract or I will report this to the Mod.

Page 125 of the 2006 HOI 1 talks about "single members and students."

Are you retracting the "ANY DONATIONS?

It is also against board rules to post restricted information and to harass other posters. If you had provided as much information as I have you wouldn't have gotten reprimanded.

[Scott Lloyd]

So you're unable to provide a CFR that say "any donation"? Retract or I will report this to the Mod.

Page 125 of the 2006 HOI 1 talks about "single members and students."

Are you retracting the "ANY DONATIONS?

Good grief!

Edited August 22, 2012 by Scott Lloyd

[KevinG]

Please move on. (Unless your goal is to be banned so you can complain elsewhere about how MD&D is unfair and censors critics. Keep it up and I will oblige you.) -Ares

Oh please don't moderators!! Playing with Trolls is the only fun we have around here.

[ERayR]

Church Handbook of Instructions (Book 1, 14.4)

Right back at you. In the mouths of two or more witnesses. Do you think JCNOF will be content with that. Na.

[CASteinman]

No need to report to the Moderation team.

Sometimes these warnings get missed... I frequently miss these warnings -- and do not see them -- sometimes stumbling on them weeks later, unaware that they were given earlier! I don't want you to be banned so I am bringing your attention to your post # 321 in this thread.

[KevinG]

It is also against board rules to post restricted information and to harass other posters. If you had provided as much information as I have you wouldn't have gotten reprimanded.

I can only dream of JCNowandForever providing as much information to bolster his claim that the church possibly funneled money from charitable donations to commercial projects.

I'm not holding my breath.

But back to the original topic. This behavior of demanding the Church prove a negative or an unsubstantiated rumor is a classic way for anti-Mormons to attempt to bully the church into submission.

They did it with Joseph's sex life.

They did it with Brigham's supposed ordering of the Mountain Meadow's Massacre.

They did it with accusations that Mormons were involved in sedition.

Tell enough lies long enough and enough people will believe them to do some damage to your reputation or your rights.

Edited August 22, 2012 by KevinG

[JCNowandForever]

Please go back and read my post #317. This time read for comprehension. I am certainly not going to copy and splash all over a discussion board a document that is not my purview to share. Bishops are authorized to share so ask your bishop. I told you where to find it. Reference provided.

I'm not going to insist on the CFR. but just so you know the reference you provide of Page 125 which talks about Single members is inadequte. Maybe we have different HOI 1. I have the 2006. What year is your HOI 1.

[ERayR]

I'm not going to insist on the CFR. but just so you know the reference you provide of Page 125 which talks about Single members is inadequte. Maybe we have different HOI 1. I have the 2006. What year is your HOI 1.

Thats what you get for getting it of the anti sites. Would you believe we are clear up to the 2010 edition.

[KevinG]

Thats what you get for getting it of the anti sites. Would you believe we are clear up to the 2010 edition.

[JCNowandForever]

Church Handbook of Instructions (Book 1, 14.4)

Again just bear with me here. I'm just trying to go to the reference (Book 1, 14.4) on HO1 that I have (version 2006), And I see that it talks about Military relations (chapter 14). This is my last post on this issue, which none you have been able to provide adequate references and it's unfair that I be censored for not providing reference, and when I requested CFR on ERayR he couldn't provide and adequate one either. How fair is that???

ok you have 2010...

Edited August 22, 2012 by JCNowandForever

[Calm]

Have you bothered using the index?

[Scott Lloyd]

Thats what you get for getting it of the anti sites. Would you believe we are clear up to the 2010 edition.

Oops!

[Calm]

Again just bear with me here. I'm just trying to go to the reference (Book 1, 14.4) on HO1 that I have (version 2006), And I see that it talks about Military relations (chapter 14). This is my last post on this issue, which none you have been able to provide adequate references and it's unfair that I be censored for not providing reference, and when I requested CFR on ERayR he couldn't provide and adequate one either. How fair is that???

ERayR provided one within the board rules and even told you to go to your bishop if you wanted to verify it yourself. More or less insisting that he break rules so you can have instant gratification with no effort on your part with your plaintive "How fair it that???" is not very impressive.

I am sure if you looked hard you could find an anti site that has the current version since you don't seem to have an issue with them.

Edited August 22, 2012 by calmoriah

[Sleeper Cell]

No it's just plain old censorship IMO that the admin did. Other posters have their opinions and are prevented from stating their opinions because the thread is closed. I don't have hard facts, but I would assume they don't want to hear from dissenters in this forum??

Amusing, coming from someone who recently accused me of ignorance, demonizing others, and setting myself up as a judge by questioning other people's intent.

[KevinG]

Again just bear with me here. I'm just trying to go to the reference (Book 1, 14.4) on HO1 that I have (version 2006), And I see that it talks about Military relations (chapter 14). This is my last post on this issue, which none you have been able to provide adequate references and it's unfair that I be censored for not providing reference, and when I requested CFR on ERayR he couldn't provide and adequate one either. How fair is that???

ERay provided a direct quote from a current handbook you can access at any time by asking your Bishop.

You on the other hand refused to provide any quote or reference that factually supports the accusation that the Church probably funneled funds from charitable donations to commercial projects.

If you are looking for Fair try here: http://www.fairlds.org/ or here http://utcountyfair.com/

[JCNowandForever]

You on the other hand refused to provide any quote or reference that factually supports the accusation that the Church probably funneled funds from charitable donations to commercial projects.

You can't prove it either that the Church DIDN'T funnel funds from charitable donations to a mall. Unless you provide an audited statement stating otherwise (which noone here is able to provide. My CFR is still stands for those who care to respond.).. Relying solely on one's words usually is not what auditors do when auditing church financials. They usually look at financial ledgers and bank statements to determine if there was co-mingling of funds.But since the Church is unable to release audited statements thus the call for transparency, which is not bullying IMO.

[KevinG]

You can't prove it either that the Church DIDN'T funnel funds from charitable donations to a mall. Unless you provide an audited statement stating otherwise (which noone here is able to provide. My CFR is still stands for those who care to respond.)..

And you have yet to disprove the possibility you aren't a serial adulterer. Post those jpg's of your current and past temple recommends or I won't believe you aren't. See how clever proving a negative is. http://en.wikipedia...._from_ignorance

Relying solely on one's words usually is not what auditors do when auditing church financials. They usually look at financial ledgers and bank statements to determine if there was co-mingling of funds.But since the Church is unable to release audited statements thus the call for transparency, which is not bullying IMO.

Release to who? You. I am sufficiently mollified that independent professional audit teams have access to the books. https://www.lds.org/...t-2011?lang=eng

Perhaps your distrust of the Prophet, Apostles and local authorities of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and any independent auditing firm they hire has you believing in broader conspiracies. Those conspiracies of course lacking any evidence like government fines and audits of church financials or any instances of mismanagement of church funds.

Edited August 22, 2012 by KevinG

[ERayR]

And you have yet to disprove the possibility you aren't a serial adulterer. Post those jpg's of your current and past temple recommends or I won't believe you aren't. See how clever proving a negative is. http://en.wikipedia...._from_ignorance

Release to who? You. I am sufficiently mollified that independent professional audit teams have access to the books. https://www.lds.org/...t-2011?lang=eng

Perhaps your distrust of the Prophet, Apostles and local authorities of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and any independent auditing firm they hire has you believing in broader conspiracies. Those conspiracies of course lacking any evidence like government fines and audits of church financials or any instances of mismanagement of church funds.

This post not only is an attempt to besmirch the honesty of church leadership but it is also calling into question the integrity of CPA's. Are you sure you want to go there?

[KevinG]

This post not only is an attempt to besmirch the honesty of church leadership but it is also calling into question the integrity of CPA's. Are you sure you want to go there?

I have an irrational hatred of accountants since graduate school in business.

However why not open the books of the church up to public scrutiny. It did so much to prevent problems with Enron, MCI Worldcom, Fannie Mae, Solindra...

[JCNowandForever]

I have an irrational hatred of accountants since graduate school in business.

However why not open the books of the church up to public scrutiny. It did so much to prevent problems with Enron, MCI Worldcom, Fannie Mae, Solindra...

Enough ranting. Join us for the 'CONDITIONAL DONATION' DAY the week after conference on October 14, 2012

EVERYONE is invited to participate in a CONDITIONAL DONATION day the week after Conference on October 14, 2012. When everyone pays a donation that day, write in some purpose on the tithing slip, instead of putting it all under "Tithing". Write any purpose other than Tithing. You can write:

FOR Book of Mormon PRINTING

FOR TEMPLE BLDG

FOR WARD MISSIONARY

FOR FAST OFFERING

FOR WARD BLDG

FOR STAKE BLDG

FOR YM/YW CAMP

FOR THE UNEMPLOYED IN THE WARD

[KevinG]

Enough ranting. Join us for the 'CONDITIONAL DONATION' DAY the week after conference on October 14, 2012

EVERYONE is invited to participate in a CONDITIONAL DONATION day the week after Conference on October 14, 2012. When everyone pays a donation that day, write in some purpose on the tithing slip, instead of putting it all under "Tithing". Write any purpose other than Tithing. You can write:

FOR Book of Mormon PRINTING

FOR TEMPLE BLDG

FOR WARD MISSIONARY

FOR FAST OFFERING

FOR WARD BLDG

FOR STAKE BLDG

FOR YM/YW CAMP

FOR THE UNEMPLOYED IN THE WARD

That is nifty as long as you don't think it is a substitute for tithing.

As long as we're going to make conditional donations can we add the "KevinG early retirement fund?"

BTW you can put FOR THE UNEMPLOYED IN THE WARD under the existing fast offerings space. That is where it will go.

Edited August 22, 2012 by KevinG

[ERayR]

I have an irrational hatred of accountants since graduate school in business.

However why not open the books of the church up to public scrutiny. It did so much to prevent problems with Enron, MCI Worldcom, Fannie Mae, Solindra...

Those commercial entities were already required to publish their financial statements. Churches are nt. The problem I see is that with any financial statement presentation and/or government reporting forms for an entity this size the statements can and will be used to harass the decisions that are made. Too much in one area, not enough in an other, etc. There would be a constant clamor to justify the decisions made. This way they can only clamor because of no statements instead of a myriad of issues this way there is only one.

Now that I have taken so much space to explain let's just put it this way. Once the money is donated it is nobody's business. The money belongs to the church and nobody else. If you don't trust church leadership to use it wisely Don't Contribute.

[KevinG]

Those commercial entities were already required to publish their financial statements. Churches are nt. The problem I see is that with any financial statement presentation and/or government reporting forms for an entity this size the statements can and will be used to harass the decisions that are made. Too much in one area, not enough in an other, etc. There would be a constant clamor to justify the decisions made. This way they can only clamor because of no statements instead of a myriad of issues this way there is only one.

Now that I have taken so much space to explain let's just put it this way. Once the money is donated it is nobody's business. The money belongs to the church and nobody else. If you don't trust church leadership to use it wisely Don't Contribute.

Agreed... My sarcasm was intended to show that publication of financials is no insurance that they are accurate or well managed. The argument that publication is insurance against misuse is weak.

[ERayR]

Enough ranting. Join us for the 'CONDITIONAL DONATION' DAY the week after conference on October 14, 2012

EVERYONE is invited to participate in a CONDITIONAL DONATION day the week after Conference on October 14, 2012. When everyone pays a donation that day, write in some purpose on the tithing slip, instead of putting it all under "Tithing". Write any purpose other than Tithing. You can write:

FOR Book of Mormon PRINTING

FOR TEMPLE BLDG

FOR WARD MISSIONARY

FOR FAST OFFERING

FOR WARD BLDG

FOR STAKE BLDG

FOR YM/YW CAMP

FOR THE UNEMPLOYED IN THE WARD

And what would that accomplish. You don't need to do that on a special day you can do it any day you donate. However if it is not designated tithing then it is not tithing. It is for whatever you designate it for. You remind me of a boxing hopful who keeps punching at the punching bag but can't get out of the way so it keeps bouncing back and hitting him in the face and then he wonders why his nose is sore and bloody.

[CASteinman]

EVERYONE is invited to participate in a CONDITIONAL DONATION day the week after Conference on October 14, 2012. When everyone pays a donation that day, write in some purpose on the tithing slip, instead of putting it all under "Tithing". Write any purpose other than Tithing. You can write:

FOR Book of Mormon PRINTING

FOR TEMPLE BLDG

FOR WARD MISSIONARY

FOR FAST OFFERING

FOR WARD BLDG

FOR STAKE BLDG

FOR YM/YW CAMP

FOR THE UNEMPLOYED IN THE WARD

Don't be surprised if this is not considered a conditional donation by anyone but you. Not the law. Not the Church. Not the IRS.