121 replies to this topic

[robuchan]

What is the interpretation of Helaman 3 within the LGT/Others theory?

Isn't this the most natural interpretation?

1. The Nephites expanded northward covering a large area, implying the entire continent.
2. The land was uninhabited (no Others).
3. The land was previously inhabited by the Jaredites not Others.

[William Schryver]

robuchan, on 28 June 2012 - 07:38 AM, said:

What is the interpretation of Helaman 3 within the LGT/Others theory?

Isn't this the most natural interpretation?

1. The Nephites expanded northward covering a large area, implying the entire continent.
2. The land was uninhabited (no Others).
3. The land was previously inhabited by the Jaredites not Others.

I'm not sure what you mean at all by "natural" interpretation.  Do you?

I think there are many very plausible interpretations and implications that follow from what we read in Helaman 3.  Certainly one thing that is established is that the Nephites looked to the north as the direction where they might find refuge, new frontiers, etc.  

Mormon also emphasizes that they didn't just go over yon hill, but that they traveled an "exceeding great distance".

Also we learn that the Nephites were a ship-building people at this time, and from my perspective, a ship-building people residing in the general area of the Isthmus of Tehuantepec would almost certainly (and within a very short period of time, merely by following the coastline) end up at the mouth of the Mississippi River.

Anyway, these are my thoughts.  I honestly hold to no firm interpretations of Helaman 3, but I believe it opens up a world of possibilities.

[robuchan]

William Schryver, on 28 June 2012 - 07:54 AM, said:

I'm not sure what you mean at all by "natural" interpretation.  Do you?

No need to be aggressive when discussing these topics.  This is the kind of tone that gets people fired.

Yes I understand what I meant when I wrote that.  The most natural interpretation = most logical, common interpretation that fits within the rest of the text of the BOM.

[Kevin Christensen]

On "exceeding" rather than use the word as a blank check for any distance, I think it helpful to to look at how it is used elsewhere.  IN FR 16/1, my essay, note 144.

Other uses of exceeding do not exhibit either the precision or the orders of magnitude that Vogel requires: "And it came to pass that I, Nephi, being exceedingly young" (1 Nephi 2:16). "And it came to pass that when Laban saw our property [carried in by Nephi, Laman, Lemuel, and Sam], and that it was exceedingly great" (1 Nephi 3:25). "They came unto me, and loosed the bands which were upon my wrists, and behold they had swollen exceedingly" (1 Nephi 18:15). "And upon the wings of his Spirit hath my body been carried away upon exceedingly high mountains" (2 Nephi 4:25). "Now the number of their dead was not numbered because of the greatness of the number; yea, the number of their dead was exceedingly great, both on the Nephites and on the Lamanites" (Alma 44:21). Also, "They had encircled the city of Bountiful round about with a strong wall of timbers and earth, to an exceeding height" (Alma 53:4). Compare, "And upon the top of these ridges of earth he caused that there should be timbers, yea, works of timbers built up to the height of a man, round about the cities" (Alma 50:2). How high must the earth and timbers be? Also compare, "And it came to pass that the brother of Jared . . . went forth unto the mount, which they called the mount Shelem, because of its exceeding height" (Ether 3:1). How high must the mountain be?

And of course, Helaman 3 involves more details than distance.

And it came to pass in the forty and sixth year . . . an exceedingly great many . . . departed out of the land of Zarahemla, and went forth unto the land northward to inherit the land.

And they did travel to an exceedingly great distance, insomuch that they came to large bodies of water and many rivers.

Yea, and even they did spread forth into all parts of the land,¹⁴¹ into whatever parts it had not been rendered desolate and without timber, because of the many inhabitants who had before inherited the land.

And now no part of the land was desolate, save it were for timber; but because of the greatness of the destruction of the people who had before inhabited the land it was called desolate.

And there being but little timber upon the face of the land, nevertheless the people who went forth became exceedingly expert in the working of cement; therefore they did build houses of cement, in the which they did dwell. (Helaman 3:3—7)

John Welch notes that "the Book of Mormon dates this significant technological advance to the year 46 BC" and cites research "that cement was in fact extensively used in Mesoamerica beginning largely at this time." In addition, "It is also a significant factor in locating the Book of Mormon lands of Zarahemla and Desolation; . . . one may reasonably assume that Book of Mormon lands were not far south of the sites where ancient cement is found."¹⁴²

Brant's essay on the Gadiantons is also helpful on both the geography and the social context.

http://www.fairlds.o...-identification

FWIW

Kevin Christensen
Pittsburgh, PA

[robuchan]

Kevin Christensen, on 28 June 2012 - 08:32 AM, said:

On "exceeding" rather than use the word as a blank check for any distance, I think it helpful to to look at how it is used elsewhere.  IN FR 16/1, my essay, note 144.

Other uses of exceeding do not exhibit either the precision or the orders of magnitude that Vogel requires: "And it came to pass that I, Nephi, being exceedingly young" (1 Nephi 2:16). "And it came to pass that when Laban saw our property [carried in by Nephi, Laman, Lemuel, and Sam], and that it was exceedingly great" (1 Nephi 3:25). "They came unto me, and loosed the bands which were upon my wrists, and behold they had swollen exceedingly" (1 Nephi 18:15). "And upon the wings of his Spirit hath my body been carried away upon exceedingly high mountains" (2 Nephi 4:25). "Now the number of their dead was not numbered because of the greatness of the number; yea, the number of their dead was exceedingly great, both on the Nephites and on the Lamanites" (Alma 44:21). Also, "They had encircled the city of Bountiful round about with a strong wall of timbers and earth, to an exceeding height" (Alma 53:4). Compare, "And upon the top of these ridges of earth he caused that there should be timbers, yea, works of timbers built up to the height of a man, round about the cities" (Alma 50:2). How high must the earth and timbers be? Also compare, "And it came to pass that the brother of Jared . . . went forth unto the mount, which they called the mount Shelem, because of its exceeding height" (Ether 3:1). How high must the mountain be?

And of course, Helaman 3 involves more details than distance.

And it came to pass in the forty and sixth year . . . an exceedingly great many . . . departed out of the land of Zarahemla, and went forth unto the land northward to inherit the land.

And they did travel to an exceedingly great distance, insomuch that they came to large bodies of water and many rivers.

Yea, and even they did spread forth into all parts of the land,¹⁴¹ into whatever parts it had not been rendered desolate and without timber, because of the many inhabitants who had before inherited the land.

And now no part of the land was desolate, save it were for timber; but because of the greatness of the destruction of the people who had before inhabited the land it was called desolate.

And there being but little timber upon the face of the land, nevertheless the people who went forth became exceedingly expert in the working of cement; therefore they did build houses of cement, in the which they did dwell. (Helaman 3:3—7)

John Welch notes that "the Book of Mormon dates this significant technological advance to the year 46 BC" and cites research "that cement was in fact extensively used in Mesoamerica beginning largely at this time." In addition, "It is also a significant factor in locating the Book of Mormon lands of Zarahemla and Desolation; . . . one may reasonably assume that Book of Mormon lands were not far south of the sites where ancient cement is found."¹⁴²

Brant's essay on the Gadiantons is also helpful on both the geography and the social context.

http://www.fairlds.o...-identification

FWIW

Kevin Christensen
Pittsburgh, PA

I'm not so concerned with the LGT aspect of this as I am the Others aspect.  My brain is burning trying to figure out how this Others theory fits the BOM text.  This is another example where it seems either impossible or just really forced.

a) why are there no people in this vast area the Nephites were moving in?
b) when it references previous inhabitants, why does it refer to the Jaredites and not Others?

Where are the Others during all of this?

[Bernard Gui]

It would be a bit tricky to guard a continental-sized border...as we are finding out.

Alma 22

[28] Now, the more idle part of the Lamanites lived in the wilderness, and dwelt in tents; and they were spread through the wilderness on the west, in the land of Nephi; yea, and also on the west of the land of Zarahemla, in the borders by the seashore, and on the west in the land of Nephi, in the place of their fathers' first inheritance, and thus bordering along by the seashore.
[29] And also there were many Lamanites on the east by the seashore, whither the Nephites had driven them. And thus the Nephites were nearly surrounded by the Lamanites; nevertheless the Nephites had taken possession of all the northern parts of the land bordering on the wilderness, at the head of the river Sidon, from the east to the west, round about on the wilderness side; on the north, even until they came to the land which they called Bountiful.
[30] And it bordered upon the land which they called Desolation, it being so far northward that it came into the land which had been peopled and been destroyed, of whose bones we have spoken, which was discovered by the people of Zarahemla, it being the place of their first landing.
[31] And they came from there up into the south wilderness. Thus the land on the northward was called Desolation, and the land on the southward was called Bountiful, it being the wilderness which is filled with all manner of wild animals of every kind, a part of which had come from the land northward for food.
[32] And now, it was only the distance of a day and a half's journey for a Nephite, on the line Bountiful and the land Desolation, from the east to the west sea; and thus the land of Nephi and the land of Zarahemla were nearly surrounded by water, there being a small neck of land between the land northward and the land southward.
[33] And it came to pass that the Nephites had inhabited the land Bountiful, even from the east unto the west sea, and thus the Nephites in their wisdom, with their guards and their armies, had hemmed in the Lamanites on the south, that thereby they should have no more possession on the north, that they might not overrun the land northward.

Bernard

Edited by Bernard Gui, 28 June 2012 - 10:18 AM.

[Bernard Gui]

Sorry...can't get the text to appear correctly on the screen. [Fixed]

Bernard

Edited by Bernard Gui, 28 June 2012 - 10:20 AM.

[zerinus]

robuchan, on 28 June 2012 - 07:38 AM, said:

What is the interpretation of Helaman 3 within the LGT/Others theory?

Isn't this the most natural interpretation?

1. The Nephites expanded northward covering a large area, implying the entire continent.
2. The land was uninhabited (no Others).
3. The land was previously inhabited by the Jaredites not Others.

Very well observed, Rob. Here are some additional scriptures you might like to look at. In the D&C the North American Indians are identified by the Lord as "Lamanites:"

D&C 3:

18 And this testimony shall come to the knowledge of the Lamanites, and the Lemuelites, and the Ishmaelites, who dwindled in unbelief because of the iniquity of their fathers, whom the Lord has suffered to destroy their brethren the Nephites, because of their iniquities and their abominations.
19 And for this very purpose are these plates preserved, which contain these records—that the promises of the Lord might be fulfilled, which he made to his people;
20 And that the Lamanites might come to the knowledge of their fathers, and that they might know the promises of the Lord, and that they may believe the gospel and rely upon the merits of Jesus Christ, and be glorified through faith in his name, and that through their repentance they might be saved. Amen.

D&C 10:

48 Yea, and this was their faith—that my gospel, which I gave unto them that they might preach in their days, might come unto their brethren the Lamanites, and also all that had become Lamanites because of their dissensions.

D&C 19:

27 Which is my word to the Gentile, that soon it may go to the Jew, of whom the Lamanites are a remnant, that they may believe the gospel, and look not for a Messiah to come who has already come.

D&C 28:

8 And now, behold, I say unto you that you shall go unto the Lamanites and preach my gospel unto them; and inasmuch as they receive thy teachings thou shalt cause my church to be established among them; and thou shalt have revelations, but write them not by way of commandment.
9 And now, behold, I say unto you that it is not revealed, and no man knoweth where the city Zion shall be built, but it shall be given hereafter. Behold, I say unto you that it shall be on the borders by the Lamanites.

14 And thou shalt assist to settle all these things, according to the covenants of the church, before thou shalt take thy journey among the Lamanites.

D&C 30:

6 And be you afflicted in all his afflictions, ever lifting up your heart unto me in prayer and faith, for his and your deliverance; for I have given unto him power to build up my church among the Lamanites

D&C 32:

2 And that which I have appointed unto him is that he shall go with my servants, Oliver Cowdery and Peter Whitmer, Jun., into the wilderness among the Lamanites.

D&C 49:

24 But before the great day of the Lord shall come, Jacob shall flourish in the wilderness, and the Lamanites shall blossom as the rose.

D&C 54:

8 And thus you shall take your journey into the regions westward, unto the land of Missouri, unto the borders of the Lamanites.

If the Nephites and Lamanaties were confined to a small enclave in Central America (according to LGT/Others theory), how did they manage to end up in North America in days of Joseph Smith?

[rameumptom]

There is evidence that some Jaredites survived their destruction. For example, after finding Zarahemla, the Nephites began having secret combinations, overthrows of the government from inside, and Jaredite names (often used by the bad guys).

I see some going north and ending up mixing with other groups already in those areas.  Many would have adopted the beliefs and traditions of those areas., while introducing some of their customs into the new area, as well.  I do not see that small group as colonizing North America, as Native Americans were already here.  Of course, the Nephites may not have fully recognized other nations surrounding them, as they called all non-believers "Lamanites."

[Freedom]

The simple question is, how large is this now-uninhabited area and how far from the existing nephite population would it be? Back at this time there would have been numerous regions that used to be populated but at this time were not. This passage has nothing to do with others, it is simply identifying a region that used to be populated but now is not. Are you suggesting that every square acre of North America is populated and that  you cannot go anywhere to be without others? This is, of course, preposterous. There are, in fact, vast areas in Detroit that are now unpopulated. Entire neighborhoods of houses, schools and businesses that have nobody living there. This does not in anyway suggest that the entire continent is depopulated.

[BCSpace]

Quote

Also we learn that the Nephites were a ship-building people at this time, and from my perspective, a ship-building people residing in the general area of the Isthmus of Tehuantepec would almost certainly (and within a very short period of time, merely by following the coastline) end up at the mouth of the Mississippi River.

Since a Mesoamerican LGT requires two Cumorah's, added to the fact that Moroni had 36 years to travel with the plates, perhaps Moroni took a ship/raft?

[Freedom]

zerinus, on 28 June 2012 - 11:26 AM, said:

If the Nephites and Lamanaties were confined to a small enclave in Central America (according to LGT/Others theory), how did they manage to end up in North America in days of Joseph Smith?

Correction. the events recorded in the Book of Mormon are confined to a small region in Central America.

[William Schryver]

robuchan, on 28 June 2012 - 08:18 AM, said:

No need to be aggressive when discussing these topics.  This is the kind of tone that gets people fired.

Aggressive?

Why did you think this was an "aggressive" statement?

Quote

Yes I understand what I meant when I wrote that.  The most natural interpretation = most logical, common interpretation that fits within the rest of the text of the BOM.

Your definition seems incoherent to me.  I have never heard the phrase "natural interpretation" associated with historical criticism.  I certainly cannot see how you believe your personal interpretation necessarily constitutes the most "logical" one.  As for "the most natural interpretation" being the most common, this is what's called "the fallacy of the prevalent proof."

[zerinus]

Freedom, on 28 June 2012 - 01:22 PM, said:

Correction. the events recorded in the Book of Mormon are confined to a small region in Central America.

Hmmm, they must have been blown over by the wind then to where Joseph Smith found them.

[robuchan]

Freedom, on 28 June 2012 - 12:20 PM, said:

The simple question is, how large is this now-uninhabited area and how far from the existing nephite population would it be? Back at this time there would have been numerous regions that used to be populated but at this time were not. This passage has nothing to do with others, it is simply identifying a region that used to be populated but now is not. Are you suggesting that every square acre of North America is populated and that  you cannot go anywhere to be without others? This is, of course, preposterous. There are, in fact, vast areas in Detroit that are now unpopulated. Entire neighborhoods of houses, schools and businesses that have nobody living there. This does not in anyway suggest that the entire continent is depopulated.

Am I making correct assumptions?  There is a land described with the following attributes:

1.  It's geographic direction and size is described generally.
2.  No people inhabitant it currently.
3.  The people that inhabited it previously were the Jaredites.

If I'm right, then we can move to the next assumptions/questions.

[cdowis]

Freedom, on 28 June 2012 - 01:22 PM, said:

Correction. the events recorded in the Book of Mormon are confined to a small region in Central America.

Observation on your correction::

while the BOM text is indeed confined to mesoamerica, this does not preclude Nephites inhabiting the North American continent (e.g. Zelph), and Lamanites in South America.  It is deliberately precludes, for example, the records of the land northward.

[cdowis]

I have a feeling where this discussion is going, but  I remember that in a previous thread on DNA and the Others, there was a table which showed the DNA characteristics of the ancient inhabitants of the Arctic region was significantly (?) different than mesoamerica.  I requested an interpretation of the data and was met by silence.

I personally have misgivings with the possibility that no problem with the Jaredites being identified as the Others, as they were Asiatic in origin.

[Anijen]

robuchan, on 28 June 2012 - 07:38 AM, said:

What is the interpretation of Helaman 3 within the LGT/Others theory?

Isn't this the most natural interpretation?

No, not even close.

Quote

1. The Nephites expanded northward covering a large area, implying the entire continent.

No it does not imply the entire continent. This is your interpretation and what you are getting from the reading. What it implies is that the northern land had a small amount of trees because much of the trees were used by the previous people there before, (hmm sounds like others were there before). These people also became experts in cement (hmm sounds like Teotihuacan, or to a lesser extent the Anasazi). But what it does definitely imply was there were others before them.
.

Quote

2. The land was uninhabited (no Others).

Just the opposite. It is amazing the glasses people have to put on to justify a "no others" theory. Do you not accept the archaeological evidence that predate 49-39 BC? If you don't then how can you say there were no others. If you do then accept the evidence that these are others. It does not matter what model or setting you accept. If you subscribe to a LGT in Mesoamerica others could be Mayan, Olmec (my opinion), if you side on the Great Lakes or heartland theory others are the Hopewell, Adena, and Clovis traditions. There is huge amount of pre BofM evidence of people here both in North and South America. To turn a blind eye to the archaeological evidence is burying your heads in the sand and ignoring years of scientific discovery.

Quote

3. The land was previously inhabited by the Jaredites not Others.

Again your interpretation. So you believe every single person on the Continent were Jaredites (others)?

How do you explain the evidence of people before the time of the Jaredites?

Edited by Jeff Holt, 28 June 2012 - 05:32 PM.

[Anijen]

Just another observation; The land northward didn't have much trees lets think about this.

We know that a huge amount of trees needed to be cut down and burned to heat the limestone hot enough for their cement mixture in Teotihuacan. This could be considered a small point for a Mesoamerican setting.

Compared to a Heartland setting; the northern lands seems to be full of trees, and evidence supports the trees were even in a larger number at that date (39-49 BC).

just thinking out loud (and a little gloating)

[robuchan]

robuchan, on 28 June 2012 - 02:33 PM, said:

Am I making correct assumptions?  There is a land described with the following attributes:

1.  It's geographic direction and size is described generally.
2.  No people inhabitant it currently.
3.  The people that inhabited it previously were the Jaredites.

If I'm right, then we can move to the next assumptions/questions.

Is this right or do the Others theorists challenge this also?