Helaman 3: Lgt And Others Theory?

[cursor]

Neither the Mulekites, nor anyone who might have been their enemy are referenced in Mosiah 8. That chapter has to do with Ammon and his crew locating Limhi and his people. Limhi was the son of Noah, and the grandson of Zeniff, who left Zarahemla two generations previous because he was "over-zealous to inherit the land of [his] fathers."

Read Zeniff's record, Mosiah chapters 9-22.

Edited July 2, 2012 by cursor

[robuchan]

Neither the Mulekites, nor anyone who might have been their enemy are referenced in Mosiah 8. That chapter has to do with Ammon and his crew locating Limhi and his people. Limhi was the son of Noah, and the grandson of Zeniff, who left Zarahemla two generations previous because he was "over-zealous to inherit the land of [his] fathers."

Read Zeniff's record, Mosiah chapters 9-22.

I'll review this, but what am I looking for? A reference to the Mulekites' enemies? Or an omission of a reference to them?

[cursor]

As far as I can tell, or interpret, wars they had were internal. I think that the only reference to Mulek's descendants (which includes Zarahemla) having conflict, is Omni 1:17, "An at the time that Mosiah discovered them, they had become exceedingly numerous. Nevertheless, they had had many wars and serious contentions, and had fallen by the sword from time to time."

There is reference to a principle Jaredite soldier named Coriantumr (who apparently died of his wounds) ... but they had experienced no conflict or other interface with the Jaredites.

[robuchan]

As far as I can tell, or interpret, wars they had were internal. I think that the only reference to Mulek's descendants (which includes Zarahemla) having conflict, is Omni 1:17, "An at the time that Mosiah discovered them, they had become exceedingly numerous. Nevertheless, they had had many wars and serious contentions, and had fallen by the sword from time to time."

There is reference to a principle Jaredite soldier named Coriantumr (who apparently died of his wounds) ... but they had experienced no conflict or other interface with the Jaredites.

What is Jeff Holt talking about as a small gem? That's what I'm trying to discover here.

[cursor]

It's not at all clear to me what the "small gem" is.

[Brant Gardner]

As far as I can tell, or interpret, wars they had were internal.

The text is not explicit, but based on basic understandings of human history, internal wars would be very unusual in cultures at this stage of development. They are not large enough to have full scale wars among competing factions, though they certainly could have had competing factions.

There is a civil war in Zarahemla after the Nephites arrive, and pretty clearly precipitated by that arrival. That provided a significant division that a civil war could erupt, but those conditions wouldn't have been present earlier (particularly if the city was named for the Zarahemla who was king when the Nephites arrived). Therefore, wars would have been against someone from the outside who was not a Lamanite nor Nephite. The Jaredite record has the Jaredites pretty involved in internal conflict of their own about that time, so there isn't much chance that they were Jaredites either (at least as defined in the book of Ether).

[robuchan]

The text is not explicit, but based on basic understandings of human history, internal wars would be very unusual in cultures at this stage of development. They are not large enough to have full scale wars among competing factions, though they certainly could have had competing factions.

There is a civil war in Zarahemla after the Nephites arrive, and pretty clearly precipitated by that arrival. That provided a significant division that a civil war could erupt, but those conditions wouldn't have been present earlier (particularly if the city was named for the Zarahemla who was king when the Nephites arrived). Therefore, wars would have been against someone from the outside who was not a Lamanite nor Nephite. The Jaredite record has the Jaredites pretty involved in internal conflict of their own about that time, so there isn't much chance that they were Jaredites either (at least as defined in the book of Ether).

The assumptions you make seem very unnecessary. To each of the bolded statements: why?

How large scale does a skirmish need to be before it is called a war? Per your translation interpretation the word war wouldn't be Nephite vocabulary, it would be Joseph Smith vocabulary, right? Would have Joseph called the skirmish the Saints had with the Missouri settlers a war?

[Anijen]

What is Jeff Holt talking about as a small gem? That's what I'm trying to discover here.

]This is a point for indigenous people [the others] that I argue was there. IMO this is one of those small gems that come out from deep study of the book.

[cursor]

Thanks for your observations, Brent.

The Jaredites had civil war.

The Nephites had civil war.

Then why suppose that the Mulekites' conflict was not between internal, competing factions? Why the need to involve external cultures?

The record simply says,

"And at the time that Mosiah discovered them, they had become exceedingly numerous. Nevertheless, they had had many wars and serious contentions, and had fallen by the sword from time to time."

— Omni 1:17

[cursor]

I've just reviewed my father's observations regarding the Mulekites, from The Mulekites. I'll share the following:

The size of the party accompanying Mulek is not even hinted at. However, we are justified in making some fairly firm inferences. Even if only a single vessel made the trip—and there might have been more than one—a substantial crew would have been involved (Phoenician ships could be large as those used by Columbus). The number would likely have been more than twenty. A ship with a predominantly Israelite crew probably could not have been found; the people of Judah were largely landlubbers, with minor exceptions. In terms of culture, ethnicity and language, the crew would likely have been a heterogeneous, mixed-Mediterranean lot, for the term '"Phoenician" often did not signify an ethnically uniform group. And since we know nothing of who might have been passengers (Mulek was one, though clearly he must have had attendants along, in view of his relative youth), we cannot tell if women were brought. There could have been some, but the common crewmen would have been single. Their genes would have continued only by their finding native women in the new land. Nibley saw Greek names in the Nephite record;{12} it would not be surprising for certain Greek (or Egyptian, for that matter) influences to have reached America via men in the crew of Mulek's ship.

If a Phoenician vessel was used, those aboard it quite surely would have been socially and culturally diverse. In the first place, those surrounding Mulek would have been from Zedekiah's court, the very crowd whom the Lord, speaking through Jeremiah, Ezekiel and Lehi, frequently attacked as being wayward, disobedient and semipagan. Many of the elite of Jerusalem were worshippers of alien gods, as shown for example by the condemnation heaped on their heretical rites in Jeremiah 7 (compare 2 Kings 23). Likely no Levitical priests were among them, "and they had brought no records with them; and they denied the being of their Creator" (Omni 1:17). We can suppose that beliefs and ways of worship contrary to the words of the prophets and the law of Moses brought along by any sample of Judahites from Zedekiah's circle who managed to get away would contribute to their heretical condition. There could have been even more divergent practices among the crew of the vessel.

After arriving, descendants of the group "had many wars and serious contentions, and had fallen by the sword from time to time" (Omni 1:17). The members of the original party would have had mixed motives in making the voyage in the first place—some would simply have been doing a nautical job, alter which they hoped (vainly it appears) to return home. Some may simply have been adventurous.

Certain ones may have been merely political and economic refugees from the Babylonians. A few, perhaps, had a sense of divine mission although the Book of Mormon gives us no hint Of it. Upon landing, these differing agendas could have led to conflict, perhaps not least over the limited number of women, if any.

"Their language had become corrupted" (Omni 1:17), as Mosiah saw things. This plausibly had to do with the voyaging group's speaking more than one tongue to begin with, rather than their having a single original language, the Hebrew of Mulek, as the Nephites seem to have thought. Based on what historical linguists know about language change, it is highly unlikely that if Hebrew had been the exclusive tongue of Mulek's party, their idiom would have changed in three hundred years so as to be unintelligible to Mosiah. (By the time of their meeting with the people of Zarahemla, Mosiah and his people as well may have come to know a second tongue from their centuries of dwelling in the land of Nephi.)

Also relevant to the language question is the scientifically established probability that other peoples already inhabited virtually every area in the New World near a narrow neck where Mulek could have arrived. I suppose, as virtually all competent LDS scholars of the subject do, that the land in question was in Mesoamerica (southern Mexico and northern Central America). Still, we do not know how numerous the inhabitants might have been in any particular region in the early sixth century B.C. when Mulek and company arrived. The "Olmec culture" known from archaeology, which plausibly constituted or involved the Jaredites, for the most part disintegrated dramatically around 600-550 B.C., although population fragments clearly continued on bearing basic elements of the old culture to future generations.{13}

In Book of Mormon terms it is extremely unlikely that the entire Jaredite population showed up to be exterminated at the hill Ramah, as Latter-day Saints sometimes have inferred from the words of Ether. All in the organized armies may have done so, but inevitably there would have been those unwilling to be a part of the conflict, in remote byways at least. I presume that the Mulek party came ashore under war-disintegrated social conditions in which after a time they met and amalgamated with (perhaps even dominating) local fragments of the earlier society which they encountered at the margin of the central arena of the "final" battles. In the course of amalgamation, the newcomers probably adopted the local tongue (likely a version of an early Mixe-Zoquean language). The subsequent wars among the immigrants reported in Omni 1:17 could well have been complicated by historical quarrels among the local survivors with whom they had become involved.

The geographical correlation of Book of Mormon and American landscape features that I follow tentatively places the city of Mulek at the site of La Venta in the southern Mexican state of Tabasco.{14} Most of this spectacular ruined place dates to Olmec times, but evidence also exists of later (re)inhabitation.{15} One of the most interesting items found there is Stela 3, a huge carved basalt slab. It is not clear when the piece was executed, but likely it was at the very end of the Olmec era or very soon after the site was abandoned not long after 600 B.C.{16} Some see it as a new style more than a continuation of the old "Olmec" one.{17} Stela 3 has carved on it a scene in which a person of evident high status, whose facial features find parallels in surviving people in the area as well as in Olmec art, is shown facing another prominent man who looks to a number of art historians like "a Jew". His striking beard and beaked nose are so prominent that he has been dubbed "Uncle Sam" by some observers. This scene has been viewed as a formal encounter between the leaders of two sharply different ethnic groups, one seemingly "Semitic."{18} Although a long shot, it is possible that we are viewing a "Mulekite" leader (even Mulek) together with a local chief from a group of folk survivors after the Jaredite debacle.{19}

[robuchan]

I still don't understand what you were saying is pointing to the evidence of Others with the Mulekites wrt to the mentioning or lack of mentioning of their enemies. Is it the war thing Brant's talking about?

[cdowis]

Thanks, cursor.

It is interesting, as I have noted previously, that it was recently discovered that a pure blooded Amerindian had a common ancestor with a woman from Greece. This fits well with the story of Mulek's travel to the New World.

[robuchan]

Thanks, cursor.

It is interesting, as I have noted previously, that it was recently discovered that a pure blooded Amerindian had a common ancestor with a woman from Greece. This fits well with the story of Mulek's travel to the New World.

RFR

[Calm]

RFR

Is this a new acronym or do you mean CFR?

Grandkids are here...on duty now.

[robuchan]

Is this a new acronym or do you mean CFR?

Grandkids are here...on duty now.

Request for reference. It's the kindler, gentler version of CFR. It's what you say when you're interesting in knowing the source, not being a jerk implying there is no source meaning what the poster is implying.

[Calm]

Request for reference. It's the kindler, gentler version of CFR. It's what you say when you're interesting in knowing the source, not being a jerk implying there is no source meaning what the poster is implying.

Ah, I just add "please". Perhaps I will start using RFR to avoid misunderstandings. Edited July 5, 2012 by calmoriah

[ANACO]

There is evidence that some Jaredites survived their destruction. For example, after finding Zarahemla, the Nephites began having secret combinations, overthrows of the government from inside, and Jaredite names (often used by the bad guys).

I see some going north and ending up mixing with other groups already in those areas. Many would have adopted the beliefs and

rameumptom,

not because you lived among Nephites. Brigham Young never lived among Jaredites or Nephites, but used the Jaredite word DESERET (Ether 2:3). Similarly, many American have names from the Bible: Rebecca, Joseph, David, John, etc., not because people with those names lived among ancient Israel. The names came from a commonly-known record, the Bible.

• Jaredite names were not all used by bad guys. That's false logic as if a child would be known to be bad. Shiblon was a righteous son of Alma. Also a Jaredite name (Ether 1:11-12) and a name of a Nephite coin. (Alma 11)
  

Kind Regards

[ANACO]

Dont have edit privileges, apparently. To re-hash:

rameumptom,

Brigham Young never lived among Jaredites or Nephites, but used the Jaredite word Deseret. Similarly, many American have names from the Bible: Rebecca, Joseph, David, John, etc., not because people with those names lived among ancient Israel. The names came from a commonly-known record, the Bible.

• Jaredite names were not all used by bad guys. That's false logic as if a child would be known to be bad. Shiblon was a righteous son of Alma. Also a Jaredite name (Ether 1:11-12) and a name of a Nephite coin. (Alma 11)
  

King regards

[Calm]

Dont have edit privileges, apparently.

You should now, you have hit 25 with your last post. Look in the lower righthand part of your post for the edit button.

[ANACO]

You should now, you have hit 25 with your last post. Look in the lower righthand part of your post for the edit button.

Thank you. I don't think I yet had 25 when I posted my last on this thread.

I also wanted to mention that the Secret Combinations did not come from surviving Jaredites as this scripture notes:

(Helaman 6:26) Remember, Helaman was asked by his Father Alma, not to reveal them.

Kind regards.

[cdowis]

RFR

I have spent some time looking for the original source, but it was at least six years ago. I was unable to find my original post which gave the reference.

So, as I remember, it was in a TV documentary on the Discover channel, about the early inhabitants of American and a DNA research project conducted in Chicago where this was found. The program was written up in detail on the website.

Sorry, but that is the best I can come up with for now.

[Calm]

See if any of the videos listed on the lower left hand side ring a bell: http://www.rtbot.net/Haplogroup_X_(mtDNA)