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Jesus And Satan As Brothers

Anakin7

By Anakin7
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Anakin7 Veteran

Anakin7

Posted
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The other day while in a local fast food establishment [where I have eaten adinfinentum times over the past 20 + years], and one of the owners son's [ The family are Greek Orthodox and we have a awesome relationship] introdused me to one of his friends an evangelical christian who was eating there. After a brief introduction [and him finding out I was "Mormon"] he stated that biblicaly I was a non Christian cultist for believing that Jesus was the spirit brother of lucifer. He stated that lucifer was a created being of GOD- Jesus, and was an angel who was in charge of the music in heaven. and I tried to explain our position as satan originaly being one of the bene ha elohiem [son's of God] in Gen 1-2, Duet 32:8-9, Job 1+2, Isaiah 40-50 in various assembly council meeting's/setting's in Heaven over a period before and during time.But he gave his Bible alone and Jesus creating Lucifer and no brotherhood of the two because of that explanation. I gave him some some LDS Aplogetic works concering this but the were immediatly thrown in the garbage/trash. I then remembered about pearls and swine. Any future advise ?. Thanks.

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

cdowis Grand Master

cdowis

Posted
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Another approach is to give him a pass-along card which directs him to mormon.org. They have a chat feature and he can ask his questions there.

AND then have a nice chat about the church and what happens there.

As an apologist, I have to be very careful in the "real world" with nonmembers. I have to separate Mormonism as a hobby, and as a religious activity.

Anakin7 Veteran

Anakin7

Posted
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Another approach is to give him a pass-along card which directs him to mormon.org. They have a chat feature and he can ask his questions there.

AND then have a nice chat about the church and what happens there.

As an apologist, I have to be very careful in the "real world" with nonmembers. I have to separate Mormonism as a hobby, and as a religious activity.

Well I was wise enough NOt to give him a pass along card for it too would have ended up in the trash can.

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

The Nehor Grand Master

The Nehor

Posted
Posted

But he gave his Bible alone and Jesus creating Lucifer and no brotherhood of the two because of that explanation. I gave him some some LDS Aplogetic works concering this but the were immediatly thrown in the garbage/trash. I then remembered about pearls and swine. Any future advise ?. Thanks.

Ask him why God created Lucifer. ;)

cdowis Grand Master

cdowis

Posted
Posted (edited)

Well I was wise enough NOt to give him a pass along card for it too would have ended up in the trash can.

It avoids contention without running away from the question. If the question was sincere, he will go to the web site.

Ask him why God created Lucifer. ;)

Why did God create Satan instead of another Gabriel? Surely the Lord knew what Satan would do.

Edited by cdowis
Freedom Grand Master

Freedom

Posted
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evangelical Christians are a dying breed where I live. I miss the days of being attacked for my religion all the time. Most people are agnostic and just don't care. I don't know which is worse.

The Nehor Grand Master

The Nehor

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evangelical Christians are a dying breed where I live. I miss the days of being attacked for my religion all the time. Most people are agnostic and just don't care. I don't know which is worse.

Agnosticism. I think God looks more kindly on those railing against him then those who dismiss Him with apathy. The former at least still care.

Anakin7 Veteran

Anakin7

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Ask him why God created Lucifer. ;)

He believes [As many of out non LDS Christian Brothers/Sisters] that GOD - Jesus created lucifer

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

Cobalt-70 Grand Master

Cobalt-70

Posted
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I don't think there is any really good apologetic approach to this. The Divine Council angle either raises Lucifer to the level of a god, or demotes Jesus to the level of an angel.

But maybe a "less bad" apologetic approach is to minimize or even get rid of the "spirit babies" doctrine--the idea that both Jesus and Lucifer emerged as spirit babies from the birth canal of a Heavenly Mother. I know that is a treasured doctrine among modern Mormons, but it is nowhere in the LDS canon. What is in the LDS canon is the idea that neither Jesus nor Lucifer, or even any of humankind, is a created being. All were in the beginning with God. (D&C 93:29). Jesus is the brother of Lucifer only in the sense that Jesus is our own brother--because we and Lucifer have a kinship with God and are made in his image, as Jesus is the "express image of his person" (Heb. 1:3). But Mormons also believe in the statement in Hebrews 1:4 that says the Son is far in status above the angels, including Lucifer.

The problem is, how do you minimize the "spirit babies" doctrine when that noncanonical doctrine has become so widespread, and any Evangelical can go and find numerous post-Smith quotations by LDS leaders?

Anakin7 Veteran

Anakin7

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Then ask him how he likes being Satan's brother.....

To him and many of our non LDS Christian Bro/Sis Angels are are a different level of reality/species than God The Father God Jesus Christ God Holy Ghost because angels are "created".

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

Edited by Anakin7
The Nehor Grand Master

The Nehor

Posted
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To him and many of our non LDS Christian Bro/Sis Angels are are a different level of reality/species than God The Father God Jesus Christ God Holy Ghost because angels are "created".

Okay, then ask them how Michael, Raphael, and Gabriel feel about being brothers with the little twerp.

Anakin7 Veteran

Anakin7

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I have also been told/read that though angels appear male they are in reality genderless creations.

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

Edited by Anakin7
altersteve Grand Master

altersteve

Posted
Posted (edited)

When Lucifer rebelled and was cast out of heaven, he essentially made the choice to no longer be part of God's family. Jesus Christ and Satan are not "brothers."

But maybe a "less bad" apologetic approach is to minimize or even get rid of the "spirit babies" doctrine--the idea that both Jesus and Lucifer emerged as spirit babies from the birth canal of a Heavenly Mother.

No Mormon I know has ever expressed the belief that Jesus Christ, Satan, or anyone else came from our Heavenly Mother's "birth canal."

Edited by altersteve
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Deborah Grand Master

Deborah

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I seriously don't understand why it is more upsetting to have a "brother" who falls away than a God who created evil. We all have family members who can be called "black sheep." Their behavior shouldn't reflect on us.

Furthermore when satan made his choice he was no longer a son or a brother as he lost his inheritance.

altersteve Grand Master

altersteve

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Furthermore when satan made his choice he was no longer a son or a brother as he lost his inheritance.

Bingo.

rpn Grand Master

rpn

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The idea that Christ or Heavenly Father (yes I know they have them all rapped up together but it makes less sense anyway if it was Christ) created Satan is one of the big stumbling blocks of historical Christianity. It makes God just as responsible for evil as He is for good.

The Nehor Grand Master

The Nehor

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We all have family members who can be called "black sheep."

Not me. All my family are well-adjusted normal and happy people. No black sheep.....unless.......oh no.......it's me isn't it?!?!?!?!?!

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volgadon Grand Master

volgadon

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I seriously don't understand why it is more upsetting to have a "brother" who falls away than a God who created evil. We all have family members who can be called "black sheep." Their behavior shouldn't reflect on us.

Furthermore when satan made his choice he was no longer a son or a brother as he lost his inheritance.

I think it is more to do with the creator/creature divide.

theplains Grand Master

theplains

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I don't think there is any really good apologetic approach to this. The Divine Council angle either raises Lucifer to the level of a god, or demotes Jesus to the level of an angel.

Adam is also considered to be Michael the Archangel before he took human form but I don't know if Heavenly

Mother and Father can procreate spirit children who are angels.

But maybe a "less bad" apologetic approach is to minimize or even get rid of the "spirit babies" doctrine--the idea that both Jesus and Lucifer emerged as spirit babies ... [snip]

Was Lucifer born as a spirit in infant form or in adult form (but with a child-like spirit brain)?

Thanks,

Jim

CASteinman Grand Master

CASteinman

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Jesus and Lucifer are not brothers.

Lucifer was cast out and lost his place in the Family of God. Lucifer is just not in the family any more.

Not only that, but Jesus has taken a new role. He has left the position as "brother" and has moved into the Throne His Father had. Jesus is the Father of those who are Born Again unto Him. So, Jesus is not a brother but the Patriarch of the Family -- a family that Lucifer is not part of.

cdowis Grand Master

cdowis

Posted
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The idea that Christ or Heavenly Father (yes I know they have them all rapped up together but it makes less sense anyway if it was Christ) created Satan is one of the big stumbling blocks of historical Christianity. It makes God just as responsible for evil as He is for good.

The typical response is:

"God created Satan, and Satan had free choice to do good or evil."

I try to point out the obvious problem with this answer, but they just ignore it.

Edited by cdowis
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