Word Of Wisdom Question

[BCSpace]

So this is an example of how a current prophet can override scripture without explicitly recording a revelation.

Official doctrine is not necessarily canon and is being constantly made through official publication; Church web sites, magazines, manuals, video, etc.

[mfbukowski]

Seriously? I thought ordinances were eternal, unchanging, and required for a given blessing.

Nope.

The endowment has been changed many times. Of course that's not relevant to you. Either you actually believe in on going revelation or you don't.

I do.

Edited May 1, 2012 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

Official doctrine is not necessarily canon and is being constantly made through official publication; Church web sites, magazines, manuals, video, etc.

You forgot press releases

OOPs- derail.

Forget I said that......

But I suppose that is an inevitable direction for this thread......

[Mark Beesley]

Why is the Word of Wisdom a commandment of the Church when it specifically states that it's sent "not by commandment..." (v 2). Thoughts?

It's not a commandment of the Church. It is a Word of Wisdom on things we should do and not do in order to take care of these earthly tabernacles with which the Lord has blessed us. It had been adopted by the Church as a minimum code of conduct for keeping ourselves worthy to enter the Temple. I don't believe there is any eternal law that is broken if you violate the Word of Wisdom. In other words, I don't think it is necessarily a sin to smoke and drink. But to do so shows an inability to rise to a minimum level of conduct that is expect of the Saints. So, while you might be deprived of certain blessings, I don't think you need to fear hellfire for noncompliance.

cdowis gave a really good answer too. Make sure you read that.

[DWhitmer]

Nope.

The endowment has been changed many times. Of course that's not relevant to you. Either you actually believe in on going revelation or you don't.

I do.

Paradox. On the one hand initiates are led to believe that very specific signs and tokens, etc. are required to pass by angels and gods which require memorization - it must be word-for-word accurate or can't pass, including the new name. But when those very things are changed, it's a contradiction, a seeming paradox!

The changing of garments and the temple ritual rattled the testimony of many members and caused them to ask as the OP, how revelation works. As for the Word of Wisdom and everything else J.Smith did, the historical setting sheds light. When opportunities came along, new revelations followed. In the Christian arena, it is referred to as "Words of Knowledge" which literally is one of the gifts of the Spirit (1 Cor. 12:. So when J. Smith heard there was treasure in Salem, he produced a revelation promising them treasure in Salem. But like with the Copyright to the Book of Mormon revelation, it produced no fruit.

The background on the WoW is that the (Sylvester) Graham health movement was on fire and as it was J.Smith's nature to "one up" everyone, his WoW revelation just happened to cover everything that Graham, albeit in verse form, i.e. borrowed from Isa. 40:13, etc. The Utah period is full of more double talk, but that's beyound this topic.

[cdowis]

In other words, I don't think it is necessarily a sin to smoke and drink. But to do so shows an inability to rise to a minimum level of conduct that is expect of the Saints. So, while you might be deprived of certain blessings, I don't think you need to fear hellfire for noncompliance.

Except you cannot get a temple recommend. What happens to those who are unable to get their temple endowments or have a temple marriage?

[Mark Beesley]

Except you cannot get a temple recommend. What happens to those who are unable to get their temple endowments or have a temple marriage?

I think that was what I said, that you can't go to the temple if you can't conform your conduct to the minimum standards adopted by the Church. I don't think that not going to the temple equates to hellfire. Beyond that, I'm not sure what your question is.

[Mark Beesley]

Paradox. On the one hand initiates are led to believe that very specific signs and tokens, etc. are required to pass by angels and gods which require memorization - it must be word-for-word accurate or can't pass, including the new name. But when those very things are changed, it's a contradiction, a seeming paradox!

Only if you take it literally.

The changing of garments and the temple ritual rattled the testimony of many members and caused them to ask as the OP, how revelation works.

Whose testimony was rattled? Do you have a reference?

As for the Word of Wisdom and everything else J.Smith did, the historical setting sheds light. When opportunities came along, new revelations followed.

Don't you just sometimes wish God would remain more oblivious to what's going on down here? I mean, really, who does He think He is to respond to real questions from real people in real time.

The background on the WoW is that the (Sylvester) Graham health movement was on fire and as it was J.Smith's nature to "one up" everyone, his WoW revelation just happened to cover everything that Graham, albeit in verse form, i.e. borrowed from Isa. 40:13, etc.

One up everyone? Your cynicism is noted. Here is a good article on the matter.

http://www.mormonstu...century_wow.pdf

[BCSpace]

Official doctrine is not necessarily canon and is being constantly made through official publication; Church web sites, magazines, manuals, video, etc.

You forgot press releases

As long as they're published by the Church......If you're refering to the 2007 statement, it is on the Church's web site. Notice also the word "official" in the header.

But I suppose that is an inevitable direction for this thread......

What is and is not doctrine is what everyone wants to know on a variety of subjects so yes, it has bearing in most threads. The Church merely expects you to take it at it's word and believe what it says. That makes doctrinal identification easy and is the common sense modus operandi for most organizations worldwide. If the Church says it through publication, it is the Church's official doctrine. Now go and quote from the manuals, the web sites, and even the press releases, on the WoW and you will be teaching the doctrine and keeping it pure; the Church has an entire manual dedicated to teaching you how and why you are to teach the doctrine from it's publications.

[DWhitmer]

Here is a good article on the matter. http://www.mormonstu...century_wow.pdf

I liked this part:

"The implications of all this would seem to be that despite the reluctance of some to concede the point, Mormons must grant that the Word of Wisdom is not quite as unique a document as we might hope, no necessarily a reflection of a few far-seeing reformists ideas." (p. 58)

[Mark Beesley]

I liked this part:

"The implications of all this would seem to be that despite the reluctance of some to concede the point, Mormons must grant that the Word of Wisdom is not quite as unique a document as we might hope, no necessarily a reflection of a few far-seeing reformists ideas." (p. 58)

A thirteen page, scholarly treatise, and that's the part you would like to highlight?

Did I say your cynicism is noted? Let me rephrase . . . Your cynicism is overwhelmingly apparent.

Edited to add: And lest you forget, I am interested in your references for the many whose testimonies were ratttled by changes in the endowment ceremony. At your convenience of course.

Edited May 1, 2012 by Mark Beesley

[DWhitmer]

A thirteen page, scholarly treatise, and that's the part you would like to highlight?

Why wouldn't I cite what confirms what I said? Btw, this thesis may be a better read and safer for the not-so-cynical readers:

http://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/MTNZ/id/10572

I am interested in your references for the many whose testimonies were ratttled by changes in the endowment ceremony.

I'd rather not bring in the anti-Mormon references.

[Mark Beesley]

I'd rather not bring in the anti-Mormon references.

Then don't make the claim.

[cdowis]

I think that was what I said, that you can't go to the temple if you can't conform your conduct to the minimum standards adopted by the Church. I don't think that not going to the temple equates to hellfire. Beyond that, I'm not sure what your question is.

Let me clarify.

Damnation is when one is blocked from entering the Celestial Kingdom. Persistent, unrepetentant violation of the Word of Wisdom will bring damnation, because we cannot enter temple covenants, thus blocking our access to the Celestial Kingdom

But for you it is not a sin, but only a code of conduct. No big deal, right?

Edited May 2, 2012 by cdowis

[Mark Beesley]

Let me clarify.

Damnation is when one is blocked from entering the Celestial Kingdom. Persistent, unrepetentant violation of the Word of Wisdom will bring damnation, because we cannot enter temple covenants, thus blocking our access to the Celestial Kingdom

But for you it is not a sin, but only a code of conduct. No big deal, right?

I used the term hellfire, not damnation. In my mind, completely different things, thinking of those who are referenced, for example, in D&C 132:26 . . . they are not damned, but they sure as tootin' suffer the pains of hellfire. Anyway . . .

[mfbukowski]

Paradox. On the one hand initiates are led to believe that very specific signs and tokens, etc. are required to pass by angels and gods which require memorization - it must be word-for-word accurate or can't pass, including the new name. But when those very things are changed, it's a contradiction, a seeming paradox!

It's unfortunate if there was any misunderstanding, but it has changed many times over the years and will continue to do so. Joseph himself changed the endowment. Belief in magic incantations is superstition- not true religion.

Its purpose is to allow us to allow us to exercise our own abilities to understand the symbols and the message behind the parables and the changes in the way the parable is told have done nothing but enhance the underlying message of the atonement and resurrection.

It's a shame if people can't see that, but I suppose that is part of the "test" itself. The Lord has his reasons for teaching as he does.

It's only a "paradox" for those without "eyes to see".

Edited May 2, 2012 by mfbukowski

[volgadon]

Most Mormons are ignorant of the fact that most Mormon prophets either espoused or adhered to a vegetarian diet

References, please.

[mfbukowski]

References, please.

Yes- let me double that CFR- I would really like to see those references as well.

[volgadon]

On the one hand initiates are led to believe that very specific signs and tokens, etc. are required to pass by angels and gods which require memorization - it must be word-for-word accurate or can't pass, including the new name.

Yet you left out the psychopomps, whose role it is to aid in the passage, including prompting the specific verbiage.

[mfbukowski]

Yet you left out the psychopomps, whose role it is to aid in the passage, including prompting the specific verbiage.

I resemble that remark. But I had to look up the word. Cool. Learn something new everyday!

Edited May 2, 2012 by mfbukowski

[The Nehor]

Paradox. On the one hand initiates are led to believe that very specific signs and tokens, etc. are required to pass by angels and gods which require memorization - it must be word-for-word accurate or can't pass, including the new name. But when those very things are changed, it's a contradiction, a seeming paradox!

I don't think you understand what temple ordinances are if this is how you view them.

[DWhitmer]

I don't think you understand what temple ordinances are if this is how you view them.

Books have been written about the profundity of the Mormon temple ritual.

[thesometimesaint]

And some are very good, others not so much. I recommend "The Gate of Heaven" by Brown

[DWhitmer]

And some are very good, others not so much. I recommend "The Gate of Heaven" by Brown

That's true. This may also be of interest: Development of LDS Temple Worship, 1846-2000: A Documentary History, by Devery S. Anderson, 2011

[thesometimesaint]

I'm so old that I've lived through three of those changes. It's no biggy to me as I expect there to be changes as the needs of the Saints change.

Edited May 2, 2012 by thesometimesaint